WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

Straightpool_99 said:
Well, yes. I'd love to see a short video of a stroke though. I think I can do it, but I must not be doing it right...The tip of the cue goes down into the cloth very fast and it's very hard to cue smoothly. It would be great to see someone who's an expert at it, use that grip and wrist action.
Click to expand...

I forgot to say yesterday, that I am very glad that you changed your mind. You're a valuable asset to the site & those that are looking to learn & improve.

One thing to keep in mind regarding the 'grip' is that the cue is held longer in the hand than most 'grips'. One can hold a hammer short or long. The same for a tennis racket but holding a tennis racket longer in the hand puts it more in line with the arm with less angle between the two.

When I first tried CJ's more firm 'tennis' type grip, I had a similar issue as you but in the horizontal direction as well.

I had to rotate my hand a bit clockwise for the cue & tip to track straight.

I don't think it will work very well if you are fixing your elbow tightly to a point in space. Allow it to do what it will & focus on the cue moving straight back & straight into the ball. Once you can stroke into the ball without the wrist action then you can focus on using the wrist action.

It's sort of like doing one of those picture puzzles from the bottom up. You need to have the lower pieces in place or there will be no where to put the higher up pieces.

I hope something here &/or what John has posted helps.

Best 2 You & Thanks for Staying Around.
Rick
 
Straightpool_99 said:
Thanks for your reply, and Johns as well. It is an interesting technique for sure, and it's always fun to learn new ways to do things.

On a technical note, would you say that your forarm is forward of perpendicular at ball contact, or more or less exactly perpendicular?
Click to expand...


If I preset the wrist, I definitely make a clear to see push with the arm forward of perpendicular.

If I set up more normal & go from a neutral wrist to the radial deviation as the cue goes back it's still a push with the arm forward of perpendicular but probably less pronounced & less noticeable at contact.

At least that is how it feels. If the arm is at 90*, it's extending & not contracting, if that helps you.

Keep in mind that I don't think about any of this when playing & I certainly don't use these all of the time for every shot & really could not tell you when or why I do. I just do what I think or feels right for the shot. My subconscious says do & I do.

Best 2 You & Yours,
Rick

PS Perhaps we should clarify. By 90*, do you mean upper to lower arm or 90* to the floor? I'm not using a pendulum swing. Although I've been told that it looks like it until I move the cue.
 
Last edited:
One Pocket John said:
Here is a picture and video illustrating the holding of the cue. If you have ever used a hammer you should you'll identify the grip.
https://curious.com/hammerittennis/mastering-the-continental-tennis-grip
Sorry for the poor UT but if you watch CJ in competition you will see he holds the cue the same way. Wish I could find a better video.
Click to expand...

This is NOT a video illustrating the holding of a cue, it is a tennis racket! The Continental Tennis Grip, as it is called, is used to control the face of the tennis racket in relation to the palm of the hand by supinating or pronating the wrist. This has nothing to do with wrist cocking. In pool, as in hammering a nail, wrist cocking is done by adduction or ulnar deviation! You cannot cock move your wrist forward (radial deviation) during the backstroke and then cock it backwards (adduction) to get a more powerful stroke. Wrist cocking is always from a neutral position and then back (adduction), abduction comes after impact with the cueball! If it occurred before impact all momentum would be lost and you would be driving the cue with your elbow...not your wrist! Try this for yourself...lay your forearm on a table with the heel of your hand touching and thumb straight up in the air (palm is perpendicular to table). Now lift he hand using only the wrist with the forearm still on the table. Even the most flexible people cannot abduct the wrist more than an inch or so. Now lift the forearm off the table about 30 degrees and adduct the wrist by trying to touch the table with your little finger. THAT is wrist cock in pool and it is also how you will hammer a nail! The image below shows the movements of the wrist. You do not cock your wrist in pool with deviation...you cock your wrist with deviation!

wristandhandterm.jpg


Notice Jason's cue is NOT in the palm of his hand and it would be in the tennis grip!

hammer2.jpg
 
Last edited:
cfrandy said:
wristandhandterm.jpg


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Hi Randy,

I think it should be pointed out that CJ does not use a normal grip or a pendulum swinging cue.

Please note in the picture of radial & ulnar deviation that the thumb & index finger 'intersection' move. In those pics the forearm is stationary in the same position. I know how it looks & understand that it seems backwards. Curl the fingers & then snap the wrist from the radial deviation position to the ulnar position but let the forearm move naturally as it 'wants' to do. I think you will find that the forearm moves forward & it takes that thumb index 'intersection' with it.

We're not talking about a 'normal' pendulum type swing or any real long stroke either.

One can, I can, hit the ball rather 'forcefully' with just that motion & the associated short movement of the forearm. Put that with a pivot at the shoulder & then an extending elbow angle & you have a longer stroke.

I hope you can see & understand my points. I don't think anyone has ever said that CJ had a classic connection to the cue or a classic stroke, whatever they really are.

Best if Everything to You,
Rick

PS I said earlier that I do not recall CJ ever saying that this move added power to a stroke. I think he said that is can be a 'hidden power source'.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Just for consideration, it seems that the 'standard' deviation for the radial is about 25* while the ulnar is about 50*.

WristRadial.jpg


Also the angle of the cue in the hand relative to the table needs to be taken into consideration.

No research here. Just something I stumbled across when I went to close the the other pic.

Addendum:

So...perhaps it should be looked at as to which deviation allows (or creates) more forearm travel at the wrist joint with the hand keeping the cue more 'level'.
 
Last edited:
It's a privilege to share my knowledge with those that want to explore new territory

cfrandy said:
I would like to pay CJ a compliment! Thank you CJ for all you do, I truly appreciate your input! There...that was easy!
Click to expand...

Thanks, my input is only for those that are willing to believe there's a different way that champions approach the game. If everyone agreed with me, then we would all be champions and there would be no room for debate.

All my techniques, systems and teaching methods come from other top players, my inner Guidance, and many years of trial, error, and competition under the most strenuous conditions.

It's really none of my business who benefits from what I share - everyone has their own agendas for either listening, contemplating or disregarding new forms of wisdom.

It's a privilege to share my knowledge with those that want to explore new territories in this game we all love. 'the GAME is our teacher'
 
The pressure is what makes the stroke incredibly powerful and accurate

One Pocket John said:
Here is a picture and video illustrating the holding of the cue. If you have ever used a hammer you should you'll identify the grip.
https://curious.com/hammerittennis/mastering-the-continental-tennis-grip
Sorry for the poor UT but if you watch CJ in competition you will see he holds the cue the same way. Wish I could find a better video.
Click to expand...

I grew up playing tennis, golf and pool at the same time. My grip is the same in all three sports, and the wrist motion is the same, however, you can't see it because the bridge hand keeps the movement from being visible. The pressure is what makes the stroke incredibly powerful and accurate. It's more about leverage, than movement when it comes to the pool stroke.

Tuesday night I drew the cue ball over 15' foot from 7' away (cue ball two inches off the rail) using this technique within an area about the size of a dinner plate. My follow through was less than three inches and the acceleration was generated by the "hammer style" technique. Next time I'll see if someone will video it for me, it's proves beyond any doubt that the "hammer time" stroke is "the nutz".

CLICK FOR MORE "HAMMER TIME"
 
One Pocket John said:
This is exactly how the pool cue is gripped (look at the shape of the hand on the tennis racket) as CJ explains it. Sorry you don't see the similarity.
Starts at the 2 min mark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdRNeETSAaE

Have a good day and play well.

John
Click to expand...

OPJ I'm not talking about the grip. I'm responding to what CJ said in his own words, "There appear to be three different techniques for the wrist to assist the pocket billiards stroke. The first one is the wrists don't do much at all, the second is they cock up as you hit the cue ball and finish the stroke and the other is the wrists uncock down as the cue ball is struck and the follow through is completed.The way I play is definitely with the wrists cocking down as I contact the cue ball." and my response is/was you cannot create power in a pool stroke by radial deviation or...cocking the wrist forward! You create power with ulnar deviation, or cocking the wrist backward (much like in the snooker video that was posted). In the video link above, it is obvious by watching in 1-sec slow mo that he is using a jab stroke...otherwise not cocking his wrist at all (except on break). He maintains the radial deviation throughout the stroke. Now maybe that has changed since the video was made and he indeed cocks his wrist...IDK. However he will probably weigh in on that.
 
CJ Wiley said:
I grew up playing tennis, golf and pool at the same time. My grip is the same in all three sports, and the wrist motion is the same, however, you can't see it because the bridge hand keeps the movement from being visible. The pressure is what makes the stroke incredibly powerful and accurate. It's more about leverage, than movement when it comes to the pool stroke.

Tuesday night I drew the cue ball over 15' foot from 7' away (cue ball two inches off the rail) using this technique within an area about the size of a dinner plate. My follow through was less than three inches and the acceleration was generated by the "hammer style" technique. Next time I'll see if someone will video it for me, it's proves beyond any doubt that the "hammer time" stroke is "the nutz".

CLICK FOR MORE "HAMMER TIME"
Click to expand...

Love to see that. Interested more and more about this technique.
 
The power in pool does not come from "brute strength," it comes from hand speed

ENGLISH! said:
cfrandy said:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Hi Randy,

I think it should be pointed out that CJ does not use a normal grip or a pendulum swinging cue.

Please note in the picture of radial & ulnar deviation that the thumb & index finger 'intersection' move. In those pics the forearm is stationary in the same position. I know how it looks & understand that it seems backwards. Curl the fingers & then snap the wrist from the radial deviation position to the ulnar position but let the forearm move naturally as it 'wants' to do. I think you will find that the forearm moves forward & it takes that thumb index 'intersection' with it.

We're not talking about a 'normal' pendulum type swing or any real long stroke either.

One can, I can, hit the ball rather 'forcefully' with just that motion & the associated short movement of the forearm. Put that with a pivot at the shoulder & then an extending elbow angle & you have a longer stroke.

I hope you can see & understand my points. I don't think anyone has ever said that CJ had a classic connection to the cue or a classic stroke, whatever they really are.

Best if Everything to You,
Rick

PS I said earlier that I do not recall CJ ever saying that this move added power to a stroke. I think he said that is can be a 'hidden power source'.
Click to expand...

It does add power to the stoke, in the form of acceleration at the moment of impact. The power in pool does not come from "brute strength," it comes from hand speed, and the catalyst is the wrist. 'the GAME is the teacher'
Click to expand...
 
CJ Wiley said:
I grew up playing tennis, golf and pool at the same time. My grip is the same in all three sports, and the wrist motion is the same, however, you can't see it because the bridge hand keeps the movement from being visible. The pressure is what makes the stroke incredibly powerful and accurate. It's more about leverage, than movement when it comes to the pool stroke.

Tuesday night I drew the cue ball over 15' foot from 7' away (cue ball two inches off the rail) using this technique within an area about the size of a dinner plate. My follow through was less than three inches and the acceleration was generated by the "hammer style" technique. Next time I'll see if someone will video it for me, it's proves beyond any doubt that the "hammer time" stroke is "the nutz".
Click to expand...

Question CJ...In the video posted by OPJ, other than the break, it appears the butt of the cue touches the heel of your palm both in the backstroke and the forward stroke...is this correct?

I am anxious to see a new video of this "hammer time" stroke!
 
cfrandy said:
Question CJ...In the video posted by OPJ, other than the break, it appears the butt of the cue touches the heel of your palm both in the backstroke and the forward stroke...is this correct?

I am anxious to see a new video of this "hammer time" stroke!
Click to expand...

Check out 4:42 in this video...his hand opens and closes at the back of his hand. Not much unlike a traditional neutral grip stroke. He's said before the closing of his hand as the stroke moves forward is how he adds a bit to the acceleration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGMyellqnaI
 
CJ Wiley said:
It does add power to the stoke, in the form of acceleration at the moment of impact. The power in pool does not come from "brute strength," it comes from hand speed, and the catalyst is the wrist. 'the GAME is the teacher'
Click to expand...

I like to compare it to the physics of a large bullwhip. The tip of the whip alone doesn't have much potential, just like the hand or wrist alone doesn't either.

But when the arm is set in motion, like the whip, the cumulative energy build up can be released with just the slightest motion at the end of the swing. ( obviously on a more genteel scale than that of an actual bullwhip)

Incidentanlly there is also a punching technique that is very similar in concept, being that you transfer the potential energy of your entire body weight up and out, via the arm, like a piston. Its very effective.
 
Mr. Bond said:
I like to compare it to the physics of a large bullwhip. The tip of the whip alone doesn't have much potential, just like the hand or wrist alone doesn't either.

But when the arm is set in motion, like the whip, the cumulative energy build up can be released with just the slightest motion at the end of the swing. ( obviously on a more genteel scale than that of an actual bullwhip)

Incidentanlly there is also a punching technique that is very similar in concept, being that you transfer the potential energy of your entire body weight up and out, via the arm, like a piston. Its very effective.
Click to expand...

I remember when this man https://youtu.be/g0kvb5AwMsU came onto the scene and all of the so called striking experts claimed that his style was all wrong and they said his career would eventually show it. Boy were they wrong! They said his aggresive style lacked balance and that his looping punches, that he himself claims to throw like he is whipping his fist like they were the ball of a mace, were too looping and overextended and his style would get exposed soon. The funny thing is Igor Vovchanchin had already been dominating the scene with the same style. Now years later, after both Igor and Fedor have outstruck some of the best conventional strikers in the world, the experts have admited there might be something to this aggressive style after all. A style that they just did not understand.
https://youtu.be/JISgLclfX3c
https://youtu.be/6Ymyu6funWA
 
Last edited:
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top