Your Take On Sandbagging!

[cuesmith]

IMO, sandbagging = cheating! I am the captain of an APA 8 ball and 9 ball teams, both teams have had to deal with skill levels getting too high. i have never told any team member to dump or otherwise play below their true level. i dealt with the problem by bringing in lower skill players to make the numbers work out right. it is a pain and i have had to sit my best sometimes but its the only way i will play, even when i know the team we are playing is doind it. there are always options to deal with the problem without resorting to cheating. JMHO.

Mike

The APA is responsible for the sandbagging mentality! They impose that stupid "23 rule" which forces people to either sandbag or split up their team as the players improve. This is a travesty! It's horrible for the sport of pool! It's actually nothing but a Ponzi scheme where they force the teams to split and hopefully divide adding more teams to draw money from! This is the biggest cause of sandbagging in pool. Most players would rather stay with the teams they play for rather than have to sit out or split off, find someone who's never played in the league before, and form a new team that can field a legal team under the "23 rule"! They sandbag so they can stay together, not so much as an advantage, because it's so prevalent that it's more likely the player you're playing is also sandbagging, but as a defensive measure. I will never again play in APA unless they get rid of that stupid rule! They won't, it'll just cost them money which is all the hiearchy of the APA is worried about! Hasta La Vista Baby!


just more hot air!


Sherm

 

[Pushout]

people here seem to be totally against sandbagging, but from the threads i've read, hustling someone is ok.

imo there is really no overall difference.

I would have to disagree with that statement. I don't see people here saying hustling is ok. But it may depend on just what you consider hustling. Playing for money is not hustling, getting an edge or game-making is not necessarily hustling. Some people here do consider playing for money gambling and are against it, mainly because they have a close friend or relative with a gambling problem. Again, it depends.

 

[Fred]

I have bags of sand in the bed of my pickem-up-truck to help with traction in the snowy weather, does that qualify me as a sandbagger??

No, it does not.

But in the spring, if you then used those same bags for flood control, you would then officially qualify as a sandbagger.

Justin Nuder

 

[SCCues]

Sandbagging definition: a player deliberately plays worse than his or her true potential to lower his or her competitive rating, typically in order to play in a future event with a lower rating and consequently have a better chance to win a monetary prize.

I play bar box 8 ball every week in a VNEA league. Our team is currently in first place. What once was a good lead over second place has now diminished due to handicaps. We played the second place team last night and we were spotting them 7 balls a round and 28 overall total. Needless to say we only took 1 out of 6 points . I have never in my life considerered sandbagging but our team may have to too remain at the top. I am disgruntled. I wish the handicap system was more fine tuned.

For years I have heard that you need to keep your handicap low if you wanted to win. I did not want to believe it. Unfortunately it is a reality.
I feel dirty about it. If and when we start sandbagging I am going to let my opponents know what we are doing so maybe they will understand the steps you have to take in a flawed handicap system. This is probably going to be my last year with my current team because I will probably be moving away next year. We have never won the regular season (gets you a trip to Vegas for the VNEA International Pool Championships) and we are hungry for it.

My fellow AZers.
Have you ever been in a similar predicament due to the handicap?
What course of action did you take?
Do you look down upon sandbagging?
Coke or Pepsi lol?

It's impossible to come up with any kind of system to rate players where people won't try to manipulate it to their advantage. It doesn't take long before the sharks figure out what to do and the honest players who are trying to improve their game and enjoy the league begin to suffer because of the sand baggers or cheaters.

I actually witnessed a team captain using a calculator between matches to figure out what to tell his next player on how to play his match. It just isn't any fun trying to compete in a league like the APA with a few teams who are loaded with under handicapped players. It's blatant sand bagging here where I live and the same people end up going to Las Vegas almost every year. They'll bring in a good player and keep his handicap down low until tournament time and then turn them loose just enough to win the match and the trip to Las Vegas.

James

 

[SCCues]

The APA is responsible for the sandbagging mentality! They impose that stupid "23 rule" which forces people to either sandbag or split up their team as the players improve. This is a travesty! It's horrible for the sport of pool! It's actually nothing but a Ponzi scheme where they force the teams to split and hopefully divide adding more teams to draw money from! This is the biggest cause of sandbagging in pool. Most players would rather stay with the teams they play for rather than have to sit out or split off, find someone who's never played in the league before, and form a new team that can field a legal team under the "23 rule"! They sandbag so they can stay together, not so much as an advantage, because it's so prevalent that it's more likely the player you're playing is also sandbagging, but as a defensive measure. I will never again play in APA unless they get rid of that stupid rule! They won't, it'll just cost them money which is all the hiearchy of the APA is worried about! Hasta La Vista Baby!


just more hot air!


Sherm

Well said and you hit the nail on the head........

James

 

[pooltchr]

It just isn't any fun trying to compete in a league like the APA with a few teams who are loaded with under handicapped players.
James

You and I have some control over those under handicapped teams. Do you mark every non-performance shot on the scoresheet? I have seen so many people who are keeping score who aren't even paying attention to the match...they are talking with their friends, and every once in a while, ask the other team how many innings they have.

Understanding what a non-performance shot is, being able to recognize them, and actually counting them on your scoresheets goes a long way toward ending, or at least severely limiting, and sandbagging.

We accomplish nothing complaining about sandbagging here. We accomplish much on the scoresheets. Make sure everyone on your team takes the scorekeeping job seriously. There is a great video on the APA website that gives some very good examples of what is and what is not a non-performance shot. It should be required viewing for all players.

Steve

 

[paksat]

It seems like people misinterpret the APA...

If you want to not deal with the "BS" then go play in the masters... bam problem solved.

The APA is DESIGNED TO GROW. Hence the 23 rule. It is DESIGNED to introduce people to pool! Yes making money is the main reason, but think about how many people have to be brought into the league. They need the lower skilled players to get under the 23 rule. As those players get better and move up, they have to split off and make more teams and have more new players come in... and so on and on.

The APA is outstanding for pool, it's the PEOPLE that play in it that feel it doesn't live up to their own expectations that have the problem with it.

Think about it, I do believe the APA is the only league in pool that has a GOVERNING BODY that the league operators have to answer to..... and isn't a governing body in pool needed oh so badly?

 

[Spimp13]

You and I have some control over those under handicapped teams. Do you mark every non-performance shot on the scoresheet? I have seen so many people who are keeping score who aren't even paying attention to the match...they are talking with their friends, and every once in a while, ask the other team how many innings they have.

Understanding what a non-performance shot is, being able to recognize them, and actually counting them on your scoresheets goes a long way toward ending, or at least severely limiting, and sandbagging.

We accomplish nothing complaining about sandbagging here. We accomplish much on the scoresheets. Make sure everyone on your team takes the scorekeeping job seriously. There is a great video on the APA website that gives some very good examples of what is and what is not a non-performance shot. It should be required viewing for all players.

Steve

Agreed, and it is a good video, but the good baggers know how to (spoiler) miss close and block pockets, take the wrong shot to get out, and shoot double purpose shots. Also, I sometimes see a 3 for example win 2-0 in 9 innings. They win the first game in 7 innings, and the second game is 2 and included a "6" level bank or kick shot. It kind of defeats the purpose of having a fun competitive league when we can't socialize and hang out with our friends instead of analyzing every single shot to see if we think it is a safe. It will never be perfect, and teams that bag will do well in Vegas, that's just the way it is.

It doesn't matter to me to play a bagger, just more of a challenge, especially in masters when they are told to win and I still stomp em :grin:.

 

[daphish1]

I'm not saying sandbagging doesn't exist (it does), but I think it's too often said by people who play APA if they lose a match or think a player is better than they actually are. These same people often forget that in the same match they gave this lower player ball in hand a couple times or gave up a game by scratching on the 8, etc.

Regardless of the sport you will always see teams trying to get an edge on the competition. Happens in football, baseball, Nascar, etc.

 

[gpeezy]

Sandbagging definition: a player deliberately plays worse than his or her true potential to lower his or her competitive rating, typically in order to play in a future event with a lower rating and consequently have a better chance to win a monetary prize.

I play bar box 8 ball every week in a VNEA league. Our team is currently in first place. What once was a good lead over second place has now diminished due to handicaps. We played the second place team last night and we were spotting them 7 balls a round and 28 overall total. Needless to say we only took 1 out of 6 points . I have never in my life considerered sandbagging but our team may have to too remain at the top. I am disgruntled. I wish the handicap system was more fine tuned.

For years I have heard that you need to keep your handicap low if you wanted to win. I did not want to believe it. Unfortunately it is a reality.
I feel dirty about it. If and when we start sandbagging I am going to let my opponents know what we are doing so maybe they will understand the steps you have to take in a flawed handicap system. This is probably going to be my last year with my current team because I will probably be moving away next year. We have never won the regular season (gets you a trip to Vegas for the VNEA International Pool Championships) and we are hungry for it.

My fellow AZers.
Have you ever been in a similar predicament due to the handicap?
What course of action did you take?
Do you look down upon sandbagging?
Coke or Pepsi lol?

It's league. Its gonna suck regardless. jk. Its like that all over. Don't worry if they go to Vegas they will get thrashed.

 

[sfleinen]

APA's video of defensive shots, and some thoughts about APA's handicapping system

You and I have some control over those under handicapped teams. Do you mark every non-performance shot on the scoresheet? I have seen so many people who are keeping score who aren't even paying attention to the match...they are talking with their friends, and every once in a while, ask the other team how many innings they have.

Understanding what a non-performance shot is, being able to recognize them, and actually counting them on your scoresheets goes a long way toward ending, or at least severely limiting, and sandbagging.

We accomplish nothing complaining about sandbagging here. We accomplish much on the scoresheets. Make sure everyone on your team takes the scorekeeping job seriously. There is a great video on the APA website that gives some very good examples of what is and what is not a non-performance shot. It should be required viewing for all players.

Steve

Folks:

It really is a valid point on properly scoring certain shots. The video Steve alludes to can be found here:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=wzfvYHM3CEs

It's actually a well done video. The point is, learn to recognize a sandbagged shot when you see it, and score/mark it appropriately. The video gives good examples.

On a related point, I do have to agree with some posters here about the lunacy of APA's "23" rule. Realize that the APA is a business, and it has implemented rules that assist it in growing the business. The "23" rule is just that. The APA boosters will say the reason for the rule's existence is to intentionally break-up teams that have highly-skilled players, to prevent such teams from commandeering all the money payouts. What they fail to acknowledge is that if the handicap system worked properly in the first place, the question of a team being loaded with highly-skilled players would be a moot point -- the handicap system should equalize that, and give an equal chance to teams made up of lesser skilled players. It's interesting that the APA named their handicap system "The Equalizer", when it's actually the "23" rules that hides the inadequacies of the handicap system by intentionally breaking-up teams, thereby forking-off more branches of revenue stream. It's business, plain and simple. Not that it's wrong, mind you -- every business enterprise has a right to make money -- but the sooner everyone realizes that, the sooner we'll realize that there really is no magic pill to make sandbagging go away. Where there's a system, someone finds a vulnerability to exploit. In this case, the APA's vulnerability is their handicapping system itself.

If one wants to play and not have to worry about sandbagging, play in a scratch league. No handicaps. I'm thinking that folks that are bothered by sandbagging are the same type of folks, like me, that learn from playing better players. I don't mind a loss, as long as I know both I and my opponent played his/her best, and we both took something from the process. Hopefully I learned something by playing and watching a better player play, and hopefully my opponent learned that I'm not a pushover and will offer him/her a very strong game.

Just my thoughts on this; hope it's helpful,
-Sean

 

[Big Perm]

Sandbagging is like having sex with your sister......yeah, you're getting sex, but dude......IT'S YOUR SISTER.....sometimes a bottle of lotion and a towel is a better solution....

Is cheating to win really winning.....I mean, you broke the rules and your integrity for what??? An extra point on a Thursday night??? And what if it was to win the Mosconi Cup???? It maybe naive, but I like to think of pool as a gentleman's (gentle ladies as well) game.....integrity doesn't cost you a penny, why sell out....

And no, hustling is not the same.....robbing is kinda like sandbagging, same type of cheating/stealing......hustling is more making moves against someone who knows the game, it's an art in itself and an honor among theives type of game....

 

[enlightphoto]

I'm so happy I play in a BCA league where there is little to no evidence of any deliberate sandbagging. Even more, where the scoring system isn't primed to encourage sandbagging in order to keep the team together or to go to a regional or national event. The simple fact is that the best teams in our league are top-ranked because they're that good. They simply don't need to sandbag, period.

The only way to sandbag in our league is to deliberately lose a game leaving a bunch of your balls on the table. And in losing, it just makes your team climb back up the ladder later in the season that much harder.

More often, good players with lower averages likely means that rather than sandbagging, they got run out on several times in a season by better players. That alone can sink their averages just as much or more than any deliberate attempt at sandbagging.

 

[Bambu]

Have you guys ever thought that it's the coordinator's fault? Isn't handicaps actually an opinion of the coordinator?

I've been playing in a league for about 7 years. I was raised about 2 years ago and went through 2 seasons with 1 win. When I approached the coordinator, he simply told me that he knows what I can do and what I cannot on the table and there's no way I'm getting moved down. With that said, she's the only coordinator that I agreed with ever.

Now when I head to other leagues and see 4 handicaps run out a rack with issues on the table and almost run out the next rack, it's a little discouraging.

How much should we blame sandbagging on the coordinators?

I agree, any league can only be as good as its league operator. If you have a 5 running the league, how is he supposed to be able to spot a sandbagger? Some leagues are really tight, no sandbaggers. Its all in the league operator, and how long he/she has had to get things in order.

 

[donnie hale]

Munipulate

If you want to see players that play below there ability or skill level go to the apa nationals you will find many. i have been there and experenced this first hand. apa rule a player can only go up 1 skill level in an upper level tournement any more and they are not elegible to play. hence the 5's in this town play better than the 6's from that town. What a mess thats why i don't play apa any more. apa take in more money than any other league yet pays out the least. where does all this money go to Danny is ST.LOUIS?

 

[whoaaaa]

I dont know if this a new
idea, or old, but we have a league here that pays out a ton for winning
the session, and the money at the tourney is pretty much an after
thought. I believe this would eliminate a bunch of the sand bagging
going on, because everybody is pretty much full throttle to get the big
bucks winning the regular session. Whattya guys think? Brilliant idea?
I'd like to get some opinions on this type of league payout format.

I'm in a league right now that uses this type of thinking. The payout money is split out 50/50 between session and tourney. IMO it was somewhat successful on eliminating the sandbagging. First 4 places in both session/tourney got paid and there was decent money involved.

 

[Scott Lee]

paksat...Great post, and spot on! There is a reason that the APA is 3 times larger than their nearest competitor...it's about the 2's & 3's...bringing in new players...and yes, it IS good for the sport. I tend to agree that the teams/players who complain the most, are the one taking it too seriously, or like you said, are trying to manipulate the rules, for their own gain. It's also true that some League Operators 'favor' players and teams. Sad, but true...and many get away with it, regardless of the national APA. It is, after all, a franchise. There are spelled out rules for L.O.'s, but they can bend them pretty liberally, imo. If you're bringing in the numbers, they tend not to look too hard at the L.O.

Scott Lee ~ former APA league operator who had no sandbagging in 4 yrs.
www.poolknowledge.com

It seems like people misinterpret the APA...

If you want to not deal with the "BS" then go play in the masters... bam problem solved.

The APA is DESIGNED TO GROW. Hence the 23 rule. It is DESIGNED to introduce people to pool! Yes making money is the main reason, but think about how many people have to be brought into the league. They need the lower skilled players to get under the 23 rule. As those players get better and move up, they have to split off and make more teams and have more new players come in... and so on and on.

The APA is outstanding for pool, it's the PEOPLE that play in it that feel it doesn't live up to their own expectations that have the problem with it.

Think about it, I do believe the APA is the only league in pool that has a GOVERNING BODY that the league operators have to answer to..... and isn't a governing body in pool needed oh so badly?

 

[Scott Lee]

Sean...Thanks for providing the link. I have to correct you on one issue. There's no payback for MOST APA leagues, unless you get to the regional or national level. The point of the 23 rule is not about forcing teams to break up, to create more revenue streams/new teams. The point of the 23 rule is to prevent the best players in any given town from stacking a team, to run over everyone else...which, btw, is how MOST league pool operates anywhere in this country, be it VNEA, BCA, or 100x more prevalent non-affiliated local leagues. For that purpose, the rule works quite well.

When I moved to MT, 25 yrs ago, I was always one the best players in my area. The 'league' was VNEA. The same 10-15 people always won the $$$ and won the trips to Vegas (they might switch teams now and then, but it was always the same group of people, myself included). We had 80 teams in the league, but the same 2-3 teams won every year. People b*tched, but never did anything about it. I started the APA as an answer to that. No stacked teams, a fair chance to advance to a national event (all expenses paid). The APA league was about having fun, with a chance to win for the beginners. In four years, I had to kick out only 2 players for sandbagging (out of over 600), and never had the same players go to Vegas.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Folks:

It really is a valid point on properly scoring certain shots. The video Steve alludes to can be found here:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=wzfvYHM3CEs

It's actually a well done video. The point is, learn to recognize a sandbagged shot when you see it, and score/mark it appropriately. The video gives good examples.

On a related point, I do have to agree with some posters here about the lunacy of APA's "23" rule. Realize that the APA is a business, and it has implemented rules that assist it in growing the business. The "23" rule is just that. The APA boosters will say the reason for the rule's existence is to intentionally break-up teams that have highly-skilled players, to prevent such teams from commandeering all the money payouts.

-Sean

 

[danquixote]

Sean...Thanks for providing the link. I have to correct you on one issue. There's no payback for MOST APA leagues, unless you get to the regional or national level. The point of the 23 rule is not about forcing teams to break up, to create more revenue streams/new teams. The point of the 23 rule is to prevent the best players in any given town from stacking a team, to run over everyone else...which, btw, is how MOST league pool operates anywhere in this country, be it VNEA, BCA, or 100x more prevalent non-affiliated local leagues. For that purpose, the rule works quite well.

When I moved to MT, 25 yrs ago, I was always one the best players in my area. The 'league' was VNEA. The same 10-15 people always won the $$$ and won the trips to Vegas (they might switch teams now and then, but it was always the same group of people, myself included). We had 80 teams in the league, but the same 2-3 teams won every year. People b*tched, but never did anything about it. I started the APA as an answer to that. No stacked teams, a fair chance to advance to a national event (all expenses paid). The APA league was about having fun, with a chance to win for the beginners. In four years, I had to kick out only 2 players for sandbagging (out of over 600), and never had the same players go to Vegas.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

i just watched the video...your right! It should be a must watch video for any and all involved in handicapped league play.

I read your post and the info you provided on the "23" rule and it's reason for existance. A couple of questions begged to be asked....if you have answered them before, please forgive the repitition.
1. How was the #23 arrived at....arbitrary....or mathematicaly calculated thru some formula devised after countless hours of dickering and bickering?
2. With so many participants saying that raising the "limit" to 25 or 26 would eliminate the majority of sandbagging taking place because teams do not want to split. would the increase, in your opinion have any positive effect?

 

[mm4pool]

Sean...Thanks for providing the link. I have to correct you on one issue. There's no payback for MOST APA leagues, unless you get to the regional or national level. The point of the 23 rule is not about forcing teams to break up, to create more revenue streams/new teams. The point of the 23 rule is to prevent the best players in any given town from stacking a team, to run over everyone else...which, btw, is how MOST league pool operates anywhere in this country, be it VNEA, BCA, or 100x more prevalent non-affiliated local leagues. For that purpose, the rule works quite well.

When I moved to MT, 25 yrs ago, I was always one the best players in my area. The 'league' was VNEA. The same 10-15 people always won the $$$ and won the trips to Vegas (they might switch teams now and then, but it was always the same group of people, myself included). We had 80 teams in the league, but the same 2-3 teams won every year. People b*tched, but never did anything about it. I started the APA as an answer to that. No stacked teams, a fair chance to advance to a national event (all expenses paid). The APA league was about having fun, with a chance to win for the beginners. In four years, I had to kick out only 2 players for sandbagging (out of over 600), and never had the same players go to Vegas.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

great post Scott, thank you. it took me almost a full session to understand the 23 rule and to work it to be sucessful. i understand that it is to keep teams from stacking a bunch of good players and winning everything. i have had to drop 2 players from my team and replace them to be able to stay under 23 which we did and it has worked out well. it does require a team captain to be vigilent and pay close attention but you CAN be successful without the benefit of sandbagging (cheating).

Mike