Your Take On Sandbagging!

[greyghost]

OK, I realize I'm still "new" and all, but I do find it hilarious that folks here don't seem to equate hustling to sandbagging. Either way, you are mis-representing your ability in order to gain an advantage in the game.

Perhaps it's how glorified "the hustle" has become, from movies and such. When Paul Newman or Tom Cruise do it, it's coooool. When Joe-Six-Pack at the local pool hall misses on purpose, in his League, he's the lowest of the low.

I suppose I have a lot to learn.

I don't see much sandbagging, from my limited experience, in our APA League. At least from what I can tell, and I think that even though I may not be able to make all the shots yet, I can certainly "see" them! (Most of them, anyway, heh.) Interestingly enough, the captain of another team in our League started accusing our team of sandbagging the last time we played them. I wrote it off, as he is perhaps the biggest loudmouth in our League, and it just seemed like sour grapes. The games that we played that night didn't seem out of line to me. We get to play his team again next week, so I'm kind of looking forward to seeing his reaction to us this time around.

because your not representing a team or organization when hustling. THere are rules against it in leagues.....never saw any rule saying you can't sluff in a gambling match. And a gambling match is like a fight....can't tell me I can't rope-a-dope another player. Remember all is fare in love/war. Hustling has its place, but it has no place in a league or any organization. Like they say, no one ever got hustled that wasn't trying to hustle themselves.

 

[IbeAnEngineer]

Based on my own experience sandbagging most likely occurs when the league does not pay back enough of the money taken in and does not spread it out well enough.

To illustrate my point here is a comparison of some of the leagues I play in. Please note that there are multiple VNEA, BCA and APA leagues in and around Houston.

APA league. Out of around 170 teams about 7 win a spot to nationals in August. For those teams, each team gets around 2500 bucks travel money. So you have a lot of teams that are fighting for just a few spots. The league is handicaped-Sandbagging is rampent. The payout results in a certain percentage of teams that will go to no ends to win a trip.
Finally around 2003 we decided to dis-assemble the team and quit due to the poor sportsmanship in the league and the timing of the play-offs. We were knocked out at 1:45 A.M. on a Monday morning after being in a smokey bar all weekend and 90% of us had to go to work in a few hours. At that time everyone basically said "is this worth the effort" and we left.

VNEA - The Valley league I currently play in puts almost all of the money back into the league minus administrative costs. This league is also handicapped. However sandbagging is not really present because there is not a lot of reward for it they way the money is split up. All of the teams have an opportunity to go play in nationals at the end of May and all of the teams receive some money at the end of the year.

BCA - I play in an In-house BCA league in town. It is Not handicapped. No sandbagging. All teams have their entry fees paid for Vegas and the league pays for 3 rooms per team at the event from Tues-Friday night. The entry fees and rooms are paid for out of the weekly dues. Each team gets money back at the end of the year with the top teams getting a bit more as a reward for good play. I think the league does keep some of the dues and that heads back to the room for table upkeep and to keep the lights on.

The main difference between the three is that the one with the sandbagging problem is that there is a reward for sandbagging namely one of the 7 trips to Vegas. My view on league is that it is great practice and I do not expect to make any money from it. However, I demand a good value for my money. If I put in 20.00 a week for league dues and only get back 16.00 at the end of the year I am ok with that as the other 4 is used to keep the tables up and the lights on.

Sorry for the long rant.

 

[cardiac kid]

OK folks, here's my take. Sandbagging is like dumping, cheating and every other dis-reputable "game" some pool players play. It happens in golf, bowling, baseball, football and every other fascet of life I can think of. Get over it. Not going to change!

One of my good friends was a top flight "amateur" bowler. His league secretary knowingly allowed him to "sandbag" to a much lower average. He won one of bowling highest paying amateur tournaments and was asked to never come back again. Way before computers made this much more difficult. Now, when he plays in a handicapped pool tournament or league, he howls at every "4" that suddenly plays like a "7". They're cheating he exclaims. Can't understand why I have no sympathy for his situation.

Its a part of life that won't go away. As long a strong player or team feels they have no chance of winning, sandbagging is going to happen.

Lyn

 

[Maniac]

Second of all in APA, a legitmate 6 will often get no more than 1, MAYBE 2 games off me. So Unless they are sandbagging all the way down to a 3, it doesn't do them any good coming off the stall. I'll beat them anyways. And seeing a sandbagger get beat badly even when coming off the stall is one of life's great pleasures.

Russ

Russ, with all due respect and not to start an argument, let me offer this opinion. You may beat SOME of the sandbaggers, but you're not gonna beat them all. Obviously, in an APA eight-ball league you would be a skill level 7, since that is as high as you can go. Let's say (and this is VERY realistic in the APA league I shoot in) there is a player of the SAME skills as you have except he has sandbagged his way to being a SL5. You're gonna have to beat him 6 games to 4. If his skills are that of yours, you are NOT going to beat this player on a regular basis. I don't think a lot of the posters here that think we complain too vehemently are fully "getting it". If and when I complain, as many others have about sandbagging, I am talking about the ones that I have to SPOT TWO OR THREE GAMES TO, when it is a fact that they shoot pool every bit as good as I do. This can make for a very frustrating night. Not so much about the winning/losing aspect of it, just the part where you keep asking yourself: "How the hell does this guy have a skill level two levels lower than I when he shoots as well as I do (sometimes better)???"

As an example, several weeks ago I shot a SL5 and had to spot him a game. He won four straight (the dreaded "rackless" night) in 8 innings with several of the innings him having to shoot out of my safety or he had a cluster. If you throw out the shots that weren't "performance-shots" as Scott Lee calls them, then he basically for all intents and purposes, ran the table 4 straight games ( a SL5, geez!!!). I actually shot well and still got the crap beat outta me ( I didn't get to shoot all that much obviously). You may say: "well, he just had one of those nights" to which I say hogwash. I've been around pool and poolhalls for 40-plus years of my life and I can pretty much tell when some bullshit is flying. And it was flying in THAT match. I can tell who can play and who can't. I think this is the type of sandbagging that frustrates a lot of league players. If two players have EQUAL talent, then one shouldn't have to spot the other a damn thing!!!

For the posters that said "League night is for fun and socializing" I agree 100%. But how much FUN do you think it was for me several weeks ago??? And I'm not crying or whining because I lost. I win my share of matches, as I also know how to lose graciously. It just pisses me off that teams/individuals resort to this. And it's not this one guy doing it, our league is rampant with this type of problem. Out of 72 men players in my APA 8-ball league, 13 are SL3's (1-in-5 players). In the other Monday night APA 8-ball league, out of 80 men players 16 are SL3's ( 1-in-4 players). I have personally witnessed many of these lower skill leveled players run 6 or 7 balls, make multiple bank shots in a single game, plan and execute carom shots with no coaching, etc. Yes, I DO make notes on the back of my scoresheet when this crap happens. Yes, I DO mark defensive shots when I feel one is executed. But what does that do for MY teammates on that given night? Couple these atrocities with the fact that our LO sucks, and it makes for a pretty sorry league. Supposed to be fun, huh? Not hardly. When this session is over both my wife (who is a SL4 and often spots BETTER PLAYING men SL3's a game) and I are done with APA, both 8 and 9-ball.

Do I sound a little put-off by it all? I haven't even touched on a third of the crap that goes on in the South Arlinton APA.

I'm gonna go take a "chill pill" now and relax :grin::grin::grin:!!!

Maniac

 

[Russ Chewning]

Russ, with all due respect and not to start an argument, let me offer this opinion. You may beat SOME of the sandbaggers, but you're not gonna beat them all. Obviously, in an APA eight-ball league you would be a skill level 7, since that is as high as you can go. Let's say (and this is VERY realistic in the APA league I shoot in) there is a player of the SAME skills as you have except he has sandbagged his way to being a SL5. You're gonna have to beat him 6 games to 4. If his skills are that of yours, you are NOT going to beat this player on a regular basis. I don't think a lot of the posters here that think we complain too vehemently are fully "getting it". If and when I complain, as many others have about sandbagging, I am talking about the ones that I have to SPOT TWO OR THREE GAMES TO, when it is a fact that they shoot pool every bit as good as I do. This can make for a very frustrating night. Not so much about the winning/losing aspect of it, just the part where you keep asking yourself: "How the hell does this guy have a skill level two levels lower than I when he shoots as well as I do (sometimes better)???"

As an example, several weeks ago I shot a SL5 and had to spot him a game. He won four straight (the dreaded "rackless" night) in 8 innings with several of the innings him having to shoot out of my safety or he had a cluster. If you throw out the shots that weren't "performance-shots" as Scott Lee calls them, then he basically for all intents and purposes, ran the table 4 straight games ( a SL5, geez!!!). I actually shot well and still got the crap beat outta me ( I didn't get to shoot all that much obviously). You may say: "well, he just had one of those nights" to which I say hogwash. I've been around pool and poolhalls for 40-plus years of my life and I can pretty much tell when some bullshit is flying. And it was flying in THAT match. I can tell who can play and who can't. I think this is the type of sandbagging that frustrates a lot of league players. If two players have EQUAL talent, then one shouldn't have to spot the other a damn thing!!!

For the posters that said "League night is for fun and socializing" I agree 100%. But how much FUN do you think it was for me several weeks ago??? And I'm not crying or whining because I lost. I win my share of matches, as I also know how to lose graciously. It just pisses me off that teams/individuals resort to this. And it's not this one guy doing it, our league is rampant with this type of problem. Out of 72 men players in my APA 8-ball league, 13 are SL3's (1-in-5 players). In the other Monday night APA 8-ball league, out of 80 men players 16 are SL3's ( 1-in-4 players). I have personally witnessed many of these lower skill leveled players run 6 or 7 balls, make multiple bank shots in a single game, plan and execute carom shots with no coaching, etc. Yes, I DO make notes on the back of my scoresheet when this crap happens. Yes, I DO mark defensive shots when I feel one is executed. But what does that do for MY teammates on that given night? Couple these atrocities with the fact that our LO sucks, and it makes for a pretty sorry league. Supposed to be fun, huh? Not hardly. When this session is over both my wife (who is a SL4 and often spots BETTER PLAYING men SL3's a game) and I are done with APA, both 8 and 9-ball.

Do I sound a little put-off by it all? I haven't even touched on a third of the crap that goes on in the South Arlinton APA.

I'm gonna go take a "chill pill" now and relax :grin::grin::grin:!!!

Maniac

Maniac,

I get what yer saying, bro.. Sandbagging is definitely a problem for the lower level players in APA.

I was only referring to my personal experience with APA.. (I have played two sessions of APA 8 ball) There is a big difference between some 7s, however.

Are there players that play equal to/better than me in my area? Yes. Do many of them play APA? No. Of the ones that do, how many of them sandbag?

Maybe one?

I have had the pleasure of catching about 5 different sandbaggers in my two sessions. Most of them were in the 4-6 range, and had managed to maintain a ranking of 1-2 levels below their level of play.

Because I was a VERY good coach of my teammates, i was able to force these sandbaggers to bring their real speeds, or risk losing the match. One of the sessions was played on 9 footers. Quite entertaining to see them come off the stall and still get blanked.

Russ

 

[Cornerman]

I know a couple of sandbaggers. I know ten times more people {this should read 'a hundred or more time'}who want to say they're sandbaggers but the truth is, they lose and use the sandbagging concept as their excuse. Whatever allows them to sleep at night.

It's an amateur league. People play like $hit one day and like champions the next day. If they lose, they're acused of sandbagging. If they win, they're acused of previously sandbagging.

Fred <~~~ thinks sandbagging is tougher than people make it sound

 

[Maniac]

Because I was a VERY good coach of my teammates, i was able to force these sandbaggers to bring their real speeds, or risk losing the match. One of the sessions was played on 9 footers. Quite entertaining to see them come off the stall and still get blanked.

Russ

Russ, I see what you are saying. But the point I'm trying to make is that the players we are shooting have ALREADY "dumped" down their skill levels and only need to shoot their best game against us now, which means we are spotting players games that can shoot as good as we can. They DO bring their "real speeds" because they have ALREADY gotten their skill levels down to where we are spotting them games that we shouldn't have to spot them.

Hell, like yourself, I'd be perfectly happy if players dogged a few balls to run up innings while they were shooting ME. They wouldn't be getting back to the table too often!!! Problem usually is, they pulled this crap on other teams in previous weeks of shooting us and now we have to face the consequences of that bullshit.

I shoot in an in-house BCA league (non-handicapped, the teams are handicapped but not the players) one night a week. I think I'm going to shoot in this league two nights a week in the future. Good, honest players in this league with no sandbagging issues.

Thanks for your ear! Good shooting to you my friend and have a very Merry Christmas!!!

Maniac

 

[justadub]

Maniac, that really does suck. I see where the anuguis is, and understand it completely. I guess we're just fortunate in our part of the world that the better players want to be seen as the better players, and are a bit proud of being 6's and 7's. In my short time at this, I haven't seen anyone SL5 or below that runs racks, certainly not more than one. And none of our SL5's and below could hang with our 6's and 7's, unless someone was WAY off, or the lower player playing WAY over their heads. Or both!

I guess we're fortunate, and I'm sorry you have to deal with such extreme crap. It spoils it for everyone, and puts a stain on the League name for everyone else, even those of us who have a pretty good thing going.

Best of luck to you.

 

[Celtic]

Sandbagging is the idiotic response of the players to an idiotic system of handicapping pool. Divisions are a vastly superior response to various ability levels and they are used in almost every single sport. Competition against the top teams or players in any sport are what I have always strived for. I want to play the best and at the highest level that my skills allow. I don't understand people who want handicaps. Want a handicap? Bang your head against the wall hard a few times, now you are handicapped.

 

[Slide Rule]

If you don't like sandbagging you have 2 options
Play in tournaments or leagues without handicaps
Get involved to identify and essentially adjust ratings properly.

The first option is self evident and recommended for level 5 and above players. You will not improve your game while dodging shots to increase your innings count.

The handicapped league n my area had a Handicap Review Committee. I was invited to join. A way to be invited is to ask everyone including the league operator.

Keep copious notes describing the level of shots that a specific player is making. Add these notes when submitting your score sheets. Also retain the notes in a computer file.

When the Committee meets identify the top 4 sand baggers. Identify the player, describe several shots (at least 3) in the match and request support from other members of the committee.

Push in the Committee meeting that level 5 or above or the highest rated player keep score. A level 3 and many 4's can't identify safes.

Keep records of the players actual capability. This is important in future match ups. My own personal Blue Book of Ratings. It is OK to copy your list to other people helping fight low ratings.

Now for a favorite story.

Beat by a Three

This is a 3 part story. In an APA match John a 6 matched against their 3. It was obvious that the 3 was a sand bagger and easily won the match. After the match.

Ken “I bet you didn’t think you would lose to a 3?”

At the second meeting with the same team. John and I discussed match ups and he decided to play the 3. Same result. And same comment from Ken. At the end of the match their team wanted to shake hands.

Al “Pardon me for not shaking your hand.”

The following season, our team was eliminated in playoffs, but I noticed a former team mate and decided to get something to eat and come back. That is when I noticed Ken, so I spoke with the opposition captain.

Al “Can I see your score sheet?”
Captain “Yes.”

I noticed that Ken had been raised to a 4, but advised the captain that he would have to choose carefully. He selected an older female who had been playing for years. Ken was a 4 with the woman a 3.

Well Ken won the first game easily. In the second game the woman left him a thin end rail shot on the 8 ball. Ken walked up made the 8 but the cue ball went table length for a scratch. Match tied 1 to 1. The woman then broke the balls and ran the table for a win which eliminated Kens team.

I got into the handshaking line. When I got to Ken, I gave him a two handed handshake and said.

Al “I bet you didn’t think you would lose to a 3?”

Remember, you aren’t the only sandbagger in the league.

 

[B4IFURU18]

Lol at everyone that says that sandbagging is different than hustling. srsly.

 

[Banks]

I agree with Cornerman. People really want to believe that there are so many sandbaggers out there, when they simply refuse to face up to the truth that some people fluctuate more than others. I had a great 5 rack, 5 inning match against a 7 when I was a 5. I had a bnr, tr and won my 3rd rack on good safety play, while he had a tr and I think a 1 inning win. That must've meant I was a 7, right? Nope, not for a couple more years.

I have friends that like to point the sandbagging finger at others, but I've seen them shoot games much better than I'd consider them capable of. To be able to sandbag to such an extent that you are consistently able to get your team into enough money that you make back what you've paid in dues, then damn you're something special. Most often, it's somebody getting cocky and fudging a shot, only to have it bite them in the arse. You know, I'd much rather be the person that makes a habit out of making shots than the one that makes a habit out of missing them.

On to another point.. people always claim that a sandbagging 5 that "should be a 7" has the nuts on a true 7. What a load. Really? Are you going to sit there and tell me that the "5" will be able to bring his game to the table to beat a 7 and not go up? Again, that would take one exceptional ability.

I'm going on my 6th year in APA and between the "difference" in location skill levels and the sandbagging, I'm really starting to think that most people are just sore losers. Show me a "5" from a big city that regularly gets low single-inning matches, but isn't a 7 because oh so many of the 7s in that area run out the entire set so often. I don't buy the idea that somewhere in some podunk town there's a 7 that shoots like most league's 4s. I've heard that there was a discrepancy years ago, but that it was dealt with a while ago.

This whining and complaining also makes me question the integrity, skill and knowledge of some of the posters here.

 

[Banks]

Lol at everyone that says that sandbagging is different than hustling. srsly.

Sandbagging breaks a written, agreed-upon rule. Also, hustling makes money. Try telling me a year's worth of sitting around for league and paying dues will really be made up for by sandbagging.

Secondly, unless it is a "super" division that has no Vegas to go to, the fact that you say your league has virtually no 2s or 3s, tons of 5s and 6s and a lot of 7s only tells me that you really can't do math. There would be no way to field a team, much less one with a 6 or 7 on it.

It took me getting a 5 inning (0 with safeties), 5 rack match to go up to a 7. I wish I had known they practically give that rating away elsewhere.

I love hearing that attitude from the people that play BCA and say that APA sucks, they know so much and are so great. They're usually 4s and 5s, sometimes 6s. Ok, maybe those are all 7s in your area.

 

[dogginda9]

Here's a good sandbagging story for ya........

A person plays a whole year ( maybe more than a year) of pool leagues. I don't know how often they play but often enough to have a national league sanctioned handicap. Probably a minimum of 10 to 20 weeks. Drives an hour each way to get to leagues. Must have to pay league fees and membership fees. Plus gas and time. Maybe even quarters. Keeps themselves at the lowest possible handicap in that league. Which probably means losing a lot of matches and wasting a lot of time doing it. Then, either pays an entry fee or qualifies (at what cost I don't know) for the national singles tournament for that league. Goes halfway across the country either by car, rail or plane. Stays in a hotel for a few days I assume. Wins the national tournament for the lowest possible handicap. All of this to win around $700. Minus all of the expenses. This from a person who plays at a low APA 7 level speed. True story. All that effort and expense. Boggles the mind. But, I guess to each their own.

 

[IbeAnEngineer]

I was thinking about the sandbagging issue and was wondering how many people on the board actually know anyone who has been DQ'd in Vegas by the APA for sandbagging/cheating.

 

[B4IFURU18]

Sandbagging breaks a written, agreed-upon rule. Also, hustling makes money. Try telling me a year's worth of sitting around for league and paying dues will really be made up for by sandbagging.

You're sandbagging, and set someone up for later. For LTC, Tri annual. Yeah, right, its much different than hustling... It can make some bs money. It keeps the team together.

Its a sandbagging competition basically. At least in the league i play on. That's the non-written, non-agreed-upon rule.

Secondly, unless it is a "super" division that has no Vegas to go to, the fact that you say your league has virtually no 2s or 3s, tons of 5s and 6s and a lot of 7s only tells me that you really can't do math. There would be no way to field a team, much less one with a 6 or 7 on it.

Why sure we can do math. Statistics, also. You would be surprised.

 

[Tramp Steamer]

I firmly believe that when flooding occurs, especially during the early and late spring, sandbagging is an absolute necessity. Other than that, I'm not too keen on it.

 

[mantis99]

I can't see why anyone would be willing to sandbag, even in this situation.

 

[Johnnyt]

It's pool. On the lemon, on the stall, he's not showing his speed come to mind. Johnnyt

 

[Tom In Cincy]

And what if everyone just stopped sandbagging? Would the handicap system work?

Do players that sandbag really influence the league win-loss results to the degree that teams lose positions on the final weeks of play?

How does any team win any matches if the leagues are full of sandbaggers?