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Why Pool Leagues Should Embrace “ALL BALL FOULS”

IbeAnEngineer
I do not see it happening. I have seen a whole bunch of arguments in league over other seemingly simple things. This will simply be something else to argue about. APA actually makes you put a physical marker at the pocket you are planning to shoot a called 8 ball in. VNEA also has this rule at their tournaments (this rule can be waived if both parties agree). If the leagues had to create a rule to make sure someone clearly put the 8 ball in the pocket they called, how are you going to enforce all balls foul?
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Why Pool Leagues Should Embrace “ALL BALL FOULS”

DynoDan
Lynch said:
I watched the video and tried to keep an open mind. You actually make some really good points and in some ways, what you're proposing would simplify things. I'm not a proponent of the the rule change though and think for leagues and most formats where refs aren't present, all ball fouls isn't ideal.

I played in Denver's straight pool league out of Felt for a few years, which plays by all ball fouls. Tom Ross (friend of yours I believe) was adamant at the time that all ball fouls wasn't great, specifically because it's difficult to enforce without a ref present. I'm not trying to speak for him, but that's what I'm remembering his issue to be with it. I tend to agree about the ref piece, especially in regards to shirt fouls. At the time, I kind of liked it and for that league. Sometimes when setting your bridge hand, you lightly feather another ball with your hand or finger and your opponent doesn't see it and you're forced to have a moment of truth with yourself. It's really difficult to call a foul on yourself when on a run of say 20 or more, but I've done it. At first it sucks, but once in your chair, it's nice to have a feeling of honesty and integrity. The difference between that league and most is for that one, the average age of people in the league (at the time, this is around 10 years ago) was like 50-60 and the bulk of the members had been in the league for many years. Everyone knows everyone, you schedule matches with each other once a week, many are friends, etc. There weren't a whole lot of disagreements. Straight pool is an old timers game as well, that has it's own unique set of rules.

Ultimately, as others have said, I'm really hung up on things like shirt/hair fouls where many times the shooter won't be aware and it puts their opponent in a very uncomfortable position. I know you mentioned in your video you can let it go sometimes, but I don't think you can. You also showed examples of how to call it out and the person shooting maybe at first disagreeing, but then agreeing. In reality, I think the person being called out is likely to be defensive and continue to stay defensive no matter what, leaving both people unhappy, even if the person that saw the foul, calling the foul, lets it go.

I do think for professional types of events with refs present it makes sense. For example, I think it works well at the Mosconi cup.
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Certainly, the seriousness of your intention to enforce the rules should likely be made clear before the match begins. That never occurs to me usually, as the most honorable (and typically, also most game) opponents will take that as a given. Your comment re: ‘Moment of Truth’ rings especially true. Most everyone has to face that eventually. When the chips are down, and your rent $ or whatever are at stake, you have to decide how much your honor is worth. The rep gained by calling an unnoticed foul on yourself in a big $ game, is something beyond the value of money. And yet, like self-severing a limb to escape a bear trap, not always a decision so easily made.
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2002 US Open - Deuel vs Strickland Foul?

S
iusedtoberich said:
The rules at that time regarding frozen or near-frozen balls were changing, and every TD and player had their own version. That's why Cardone said before the shot: "this is such a clouded area in pool, in the United States"

I had the opposite happen to me. I was playing a guy in about 2010 $100 per game backpocket. He had come up in the 80's and had taken a couple decades off and recently gotten the bug again. He had a shot with about 1/8" between the CB and OB. I forgot if he jacked up or not, but the CB went forward a foot or more. Clearly a foul by the modern rule set. I called foul on him. He looked at me funny. We had a discussions about it for a good 10 minutes, setting up the shot again with 2 other balls, etc. He kept saying it wasn't a foul, I kept saying it was (including on the reset shot for demo purposes). Finally a guy on the rail who we were both buddies with, but also came up in the 80's, and never took time off, gave his input. (we both asked him). He said in the 80's it was a good hit, but today it was a foul because the rules and understanding of the game between the two times evolved.

I gave him the good hit, he won the game from there which put us even, and I quit. I wasn't mad, it was just we were each playing different era rules.
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i learned it the old way and even though i have read the rule, watched drdave's video (and understood it), i still instinctively think "foul", lol
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Why Pool Leagues Should Embrace “ALL BALL FOULS”

Bavafongoul
Yes, the USGA and R&A absolutely do decide what officially constitutes the game referred to as golf.
No other entities have that legal and world wide recognized authority to define, change or alter the rules.
That applies to both the legal and technical aspects of the game of golf that is defined by the Rules of Golf.

Rule #1 defines the fundamental aspects of the game and core principles. These principles, along with specific
rules for play, equipment and procedures, essentially define what the game of golf is. The USGA and R&A are
are akin to a monopoly or sole source provider when it comes to what the game of golf actually is or involves.

The USGA (United States Golf Assiciation) is the governing body that jointly writes and interprets the rules of golf
jointly with the R&A (Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St. Andrews). The R&A’s jurisdiction covers worldwide except
for the United States & Mexico. A mutual goal has never been to make the game of golf easier other than by tee box.

Think of it this way because it genuinely is the legitimate way. If you don’t abide by the rules, you’re only practicing golf.
You can’t post your score for a handicap nor can you get recognized for a hole in one when you don’t play by the rules.
Of course, you can always not reveal what rule(s) you violated & lie by making everyone think you did play by the rules.
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2002 US Open - Deuel vs Strickland Foul?

iusedtoberich
Island Drive said:
Cardone said foul.
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The rules at that time regarding frozen or near-frozen balls were changing, and every TD and player had their own version. That's why Cardone said before the shot: "this is such a clouded area in pool, in the United States"

I had the opposite happen to me. I was playing a guy in about 2010 $100 per game backpocket. He had come up in the 80's and had taken a couple decades off and recently gotten the bug again. He had a shot with about 1/8" between the CB and OB. I forgot if he jacked up or not, but the CB went forward a foot or more. Clearly a foul by the modern rule set. I called foul on him. He looked at me funny. We had a discussions about it for a good 10 minutes, setting up the shot again with 2 other balls, etc. He kept saying it wasn't a foul, I kept saying it was (including on the reset shot for demo purposes). Finally a guy on the rail who we were both buddies with, but also came up in the 80's, and never took time off, gave his input. (we both asked him). He said in the 80's it was a good hit, but today it was a foul because the rules and understanding of the game between the two times evolved.

I gave him the good hit, he won the game from there which put us even, and I quit. I wasn't mad, it was just we were each playing different era rules.
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A simple answer to the APA/BCA Amateur League dilemma

iusedtoberich
I was part of an in-house league a put on by a legit pool room. It was a league of serious players of all abilities, playing straight pool, on 9' tables. It was handicapped. This was a room in Philly in the 90's when straight pool was still played daily there. It was round robin with maybe 10 or 15 guys. Each member scheduled their own match, and were supposed to play once or twice per week (I forgot now). All the members meant well, but it was a pain in the butt scheduling the match with the opponent, scheduling make up matches, etc. About half way through, it was just dragging on for everyone, and becoming a nag. We finished it, but didn't do it again.

This I believe is similar to what the OP was aiming for.
There was none of the drama like APA stuff, but it still was a nag.
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