When pool players make the money golfers make, I'm sure they won't be playing in regional tournaments. Until then, they have to make ends meet.
Attention WPBA....How is this fair?
- Thread starter 1on1pooltournys
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When pool players make the money golfers make, I'm sure they won't be playing in regional tournaments. Until then, they have to make ends meet.
Give lessons, clinics, House pro, Sell DVD's, books, and billiard supplies, give exabitions,part time job. Johnnyt
They won't because, again, the professional golf tour is an organized entity and pool is not. And golf sees the bigger picture - pool players can't get past seeing tomorrow's breakfast. The pro that joined this thread helped prove that further. I actually commend John Barton, one her strongest supporters, for trying to set her straight.
I'd hate to be the best amateur woman in the room and draw Karen Corr as my opening round. Boom you get knocked to the loser's side by a pro, not fair at all. The girl who gets the best draw has the best shot at winning when you allow pros. It's almost like when you see this Pro Am events and Pros dominate the first couple spots then theres a gap of like 10 places and then you see the rest of the pros and top amateurs. The reason for that is the draw.
I say the most fair way to do it is make the pros play each other in the First Round. If there are 4 pros guess what winners play each other next, and the losers play each other next. This ensures amateurs get 2 or 3 rounds before they have to even worry about the pros. I understand the money isn't good enough on the WPBA tour but it's like that in pool in general. Hell Orcullo won the Predator event and was still hustlin in the back room, what does that tell you? Pool will always be for the gamblers and bangers. There's no good place for a pro to really fit in anymore. I think that's the root of this whole problem.
I say the most fair way to do it is make the pros play each other in the First Round. If there are 4 pros guess what winners play each other next, and the losers play each other next. This ensures amateurs get 2 or 3 rounds before they have to even worry about the pros. I understand the money isn't good enough on the WPBA tour but it's like that in pool in general. Hell Orcullo won the Predator event and was still hustlin in the back room, what does that tell you? Pool will always be for the gamblers and bangers. There's no good place for a pro to really fit in anymore. I think that's the root of this whole problem.
Just for the record, it's not the WPBA that decides if a regional tour can allow pros to play, it's the TOUR that decides that. The WPBA gives us, the Regional Tours, that decision/flexibility. State Championships are the only exception - the state championships are open to pros per the WPBA.
Most Regional Tours ask the players if they want the pros to play or not in their tour and then make that "ruling." If they don't ask the players (and/or sponsors/pool rooms), then IMHO, they aren't listening to the players.
The OB Cues Tour asked the players many years ago and it was decided not to allow them to play based on the feedback we heard. The Spirit Tour asked their players several years ago and they were okay with the pros playing. (fyi, the reason the Spirit Tour is no longer is NOT because they allowed pros to play.)
Most Regional Tours ask the players if they want the pros to play or not in their tour and then make that "ruling." If they don't ask the players (and/or sponsors/pool rooms), then IMHO, they aren't listening to the players.
The OB Cues Tour asked the players many years ago and it was decided not to allow them to play based on the feedback we heard. The Spirit Tour asked their players several years ago and they were okay with the pros playing. (fyi, the reason the Spirit Tour is no longer is NOT because they allowed pros to play.)
It might not be the only reason but it didn't help it either. Johnnyt
It had nothing to do with it.
Like I said, the sponsors should just pay 1 or 2 top pros a little money for showing up and supporting the girls. Maybe they could set it up where they actually organize and run the tournaments, and can make money like that. But allowing them to play in Qualifying tournaments, and manipulating the outcome is really not just. I would love to see statistics on how many times Karen and Julie came in 1st and 2nd it these events, and knocked out 2 or 3 girls that had a great chance at qualifying.
While I am not a college professor, the KEY and the most important of the entire thread IMO.
This point cannot be disputed.
Good posting 1on1,
Ken
Yes but did you travel (often by plane) and pay hotel expenses to play in the tournament? There are a limited number of qualifiers and tours available to aspiring pros, and in my case they were always so far away that it was very expensive just to get there.
I can certainly see Kelly's (and the other pros) side of it, but her argument that "if you can beat a pro you deserve to be there" leaves out a couple of factors. Kelly is now a SEASONED pro. Most times a player will need to win several qualifiers in order to get to a comfort level in the pro events to be able to play her best. And meeting up with a pro at the qualifier will have the same mental effects. I agree that players should expose themselves to this kind of pressure whenever possible, but again, sometimes they are paying a LOT of money just to get to the qualifiers because that is the only path they have.
Hopefully with the new structure of regional tours, more tours will be available so that some geographical areas are not left out. Then, IMO, it will be less of an issue because it will be less of an expense.
The structure is changing - and all players should be aware of the changes.
( this was posted on the Ladies Spirit Tour Website)
WPBA 2009 Changes
To: WPBA Regional Tour Directors
From: WPBA Board of Directors – Regional Tour Committee
Re: New Business Model for Regional Tours for 2010 and beyond
In 2008, the WPBA was contacted by several persons wanting to open Regional Tours in their area. As growth and expansion is one of the main goals of the WPBA, we are thrilled about the possibility of new Regional Tours across the US. However, our enthusiasm is slightly dampened because we realize that it would be nearly impossible to add new tours because of the current business model that we are operating under.
Last year, there were 10 Regional Tours (RTs) and qualifying spots were only available for 5 WPBA events. There were 9 spots per event….for a total of 45 spots that had to be divided among 10 tours. That would allow each RT to receive 4.5 spots. Fortunately, there are a few tours who only book one or two for the year, which allows other tours to have more than their allotted 4-5.
However, looking at adding a potential 5-6 more RTs would be implausible operating under these same parameters. Imagine having to divide 45 spots between 15 tours. Now each tour would only get 3 for the year. Or, as we are experiencing in 2009, the number of available qualifiers has been severely diminished because there are more Exempt Pros guaranteed entry into each Classic Tour event, plus there are simply less events due to the economy.
Because the WPBA is committed to the growth of its organization, we will be implementing some changes to the Regional Tour system. Effective in 2010, we will no longer be offering qualifier events for Classic Tour events, nor will the year-end point’s winner from the previous year be guaranteed a spot into the WPBA Tour for the following year. Instead, the top players of each Regional Tour will be invited to play in the Regional Tour Championships….and top 8 finishers[1] from the RTC event will earn their spots for the following WPBA season.
This new business model solves several problems:
* Allows for an unlimited number of Regional Tours across the US
* Allows for the creation of International Regional Tours
* RTs will no longer have to fight for a limited amount of qualifier spots
* RTs will be able to book more events/venues because the $500 qualifier spot will no longer be an issue. If an RT operator can find rooms that will add $200, but not $500 or $1000…they will be able to include that room in their tour now.
* The new systems allows for the “cream of the crop” to rise. The top RT players will be competing against each other for the 8 spots, which gives the best players the fairest chance at earning their Exempt status.
While the no-qualifier policy will not take effect until 2010, we are planning to change the format of the next RTC event to the new format where 8 players will earn their exemption instead of 1 player. The winner of the event will still earn paid entries into all the Classic Tour events (minus the US Open)…so there is incentive to try and win the RTC itself.
For the remainder of 2009, RTs will be allowed to book qualifiers for 2009 events….but not for any 2010 events. (State Championships are the only exception to the qualifier rule. If you want to hold a State Championship, that tournament can still be a qualifier to a WPBA US Open.)
It is important that this information be passed on to your players so that they are aware of the importance of participation versus winning a q-spot. If a players goal is to become a professional in the WPBA, their focus should now be on finishing high in the year-to-date rankings so that they qualify to compete in the RTC.
More detailed information will be coming soon in a new Regional Tour Handbook.
Thank you,
WPBA Board of Directors – Regional Tour Committee
Regarding the Ladies Spirit Tour.....during the San Diego Classic streaming Deb Shjodt said the tour is still alive. They have a couple of venues and are working on a few more.
Regarding pros in regional events......What constitutes being a pro?
Are Deb S., Traci Hines, Susan Mello, etc etc amatuers???
I've thought of the regional tours as being pro/semi-pro. The WPBA has six or seven events each year and half the field come away from an event with very little in the way of money. When they play in independent events they are competing against many of these same "regional pros" so I'm at a loss as to why this is an issue.
Terry
Regarding pros in regional events......What constitutes being a pro?
Are Deb S., Traci Hines, Susan Mello, etc etc amatuers???
I've thought of the regional tours as being pro/semi-pro. The WPBA has six or seven events each year and half the field come away from an event with very little in the way of money. When they play in independent events they are competing against many of these same "regional pros" so I'm at a loss as to why this is an issue.
Terry
Maybe it just boils down to what a player's goal is when they enter these things.
Are all (or most) of the players looking to become a top female pro? Or at they doing it because they just enjoy matching up, even if they don't have the nuts? Are they really just hoping they can pay the bills with pool?
I'm thinking that if you're there because you like playing pool, and like competing, you don't mind forking out 200 bucks or whatever for a shot to win your money back or more against tough competition. So bring on the pros.
If you're there because you want to be the best someday... a true top female pro... well, you can't be the best until you beat the best. Bring on the pros.
If you're actually trying to make a living, and you feel the pros are robbing you... you're nuts anyway, because you aren't likely to make a living playing pool even if you were capable of beating them. Even the top female pros have to grind it out playing in these regionals. If money is your end goal, you'd better hustle the boys at the bar or look for a real job :/ (PS: In which case, bring on the pros)
Are all (or most) of the players looking to become a top female pro? Or at they doing it because they just enjoy matching up, even if they don't have the nuts? Are they really just hoping they can pay the bills with pool?
I'm thinking that if you're there because you like playing pool, and like competing, you don't mind forking out 200 bucks or whatever for a shot to win your money back or more against tough competition. So bring on the pros.
If you're there because you want to be the best someday... a true top female pro... well, you can't be the best until you beat the best. Bring on the pros.
If you're actually trying to make a living, and you feel the pros are robbing you... you're nuts anyway, because you aren't likely to make a living playing pool even if you were capable of beating them. Even the top female pros have to grind it out playing in these regionals. If money is your end goal, you'd better hustle the boys at the bar or look for a real job :/ (PS: In which case, bring on the pros)
It should be tough. The WPBA is the Women's Professional Billiards Assoc. Emphasis on the professional. Ideally...each event should be comprised of the best female players out there...which is not how it works right now. There is a lot of Asian and European talent out there who could really increase the overall level of play if they competed with us.
I cannot even comprehend why people suggest that we should open the field and make it easier for women to play. That isn't how you become a professional...at anything. Please...tell the PGA that they should lower their standards...because I know several decent golfers who would love the opportunity to play alongside Tiger Woods.
No...if a player is playing at the level she needs to be in order to succeed on the WPBA tour (succeed being the operative word...and success = winning matches consistently...climbing in the rankings...making a top 10 appearance every now and then)...then she will have no problem competing with pros in any event. Ask Iris Ranola and Yu Ram Cha...our newest rising stars. It wasn't "too hard" for them to break into the WPBA and stay there. Why? Because they play good enough. It's that simple.
I'm not trying to be offensive to anyone. Each and every single player who has qualified for a WPBA event should be proud because they have accomplished something. But that does not mean that they are ready to be full-time WPBA players. And it does not make sense to open/expand the WPBA to players that are not ready...simply because they want to be there.
Melissa
Iris Ranola and Yu Ram Cha were already champions back in their own country. Johnnyt
A couple of thoughts from an idiot that always has an opinion 
First, if I had been playing in a few qualifiers, placing 5th and 6th, putting in my hours, and feeling like I had a shot at the top 3-4 people expected to be at the qualifier and maybe win.....and then two top pros showed up and dominated the field, knocking me out in the first round, I'd be pissed.....just because you are in a qualifier doesn't mean you are ready....you are playing in the qualifier to learn to beat the tops in your own class, which gives you the confidence to carry over into the actual wpba tourney.....people that play on the Nationwide tour don't want Tiger and Phil or Sergio and Vijay showing up at various venues to make some cash on the side.....you can't learn to win by coming in third....
It's just like the US Open qualifiers in golf.....anybody that is already in doesn't play, the qualifiers are reserved for those that do not have a spot.....I think somebody has a really smart idea regarding having a couple of pros at these events.....but instead of playing, have the pros support the event.....they can make money with autographs, doing clinics, and even provide opportunities for the players at the tourney to match up with them, where the pros can make some cash, and the ladies can still learn to win.....hell, maybe more pros can show up and they can all have their own elite tourney, with longer races.....
There are just so many other viable options that I think would help the tour......I'd love to match up with SVB and donate a few small funds to play him in person.....if I'd love to play him in an open event, even if it was first round.....but I'd be a little pissed if I drew him in the first round of a qualifier....
First, if I had been playing in a few qualifiers, placing 5th and 6th, putting in my hours, and feeling like I had a shot at the top 3-4 people expected to be at the qualifier and maybe win.....and then two top pros showed up and dominated the field, knocking me out in the first round, I'd be pissed.....just because you are in a qualifier doesn't mean you are ready....you are playing in the qualifier to learn to beat the tops in your own class, which gives you the confidence to carry over into the actual wpba tourney.....people that play on the Nationwide tour don't want Tiger and Phil or Sergio and Vijay showing up at various venues to make some cash on the side.....you can't learn to win by coming in third....
It's just like the US Open qualifiers in golf.....anybody that is already in doesn't play, the qualifiers are reserved for those that do not have a spot.....I think somebody has a really smart idea regarding having a couple of pros at these events.....but instead of playing, have the pros support the event.....they can make money with autographs, doing clinics, and even provide opportunities for the players at the tourney to match up with them, where the pros can make some cash, and the ladies can still learn to win.....hell, maybe more pros can show up and they can all have their own elite tourney, with longer races.....
There are just so many other viable options that I think would help the tour......I'd love to match up with SVB and donate a few small funds to play him in person.....if I'd love to play him in an open event, even if it was first round.....but I'd be a little pissed if I drew him in the first round of a qualifier....
Then a qualifier or amateur event should have the same emphasis.
If you have already qualified for the WPBA or solidified your status as a PRO, why would you want to get the easy money in these events. It shouldn't be easy and standards should not be lowered by playing in these events.
I don't think you would ever see Tiger playing on the Nationwide Tour or the City Championship for Orlando.
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Big Perm said:
As has already been stated, the option to allow WPBA pro's to compete in a regional event is left up to the regional tours to decide, not the WPBA. With this being the case, it is up to the women playing in the regional tours to educate themselves on what the regional tour they play in, allows.
If a woman doesn't want to "risk" having to play a pro in one of these events, she needs to confirm with the director of the regional tour she's interested in, if pro's are allowed to play or not.
I'll ask again. What is a pro.
Are Angel Paglia,Traci Hines, Susan Mello,Stacy Novak and many others who are currently competing on the regional tours considered as pros? Many of these ladies have spent time on the WPBA tour but are now having to requalify. When they dropped off the WPBA touring list did they suddenly become amateurs? I think they are still pros. So those saying "NO PROS ON REGIONAL TOURS", should at least come up with a standard for what a pro is. If you would like to say no current WPBAers then what about champions from europe and asia (they also qualify on the regional tours)? If you get that figured out then maybe you could suggest a way for women to qualify.
Are Angel Paglia,Traci Hines, Susan Mello,Stacy Novak and many others who are currently competing on the regional tours considered as pros? Many of these ladies have spent time on the WPBA tour but are now having to requalify. When they dropped off the WPBA touring list did they suddenly become amateurs? I think they are still pros. So those saying "NO PROS ON REGIONAL TOURS", should at least come up with a standard for what a pro is. If you would like to say no current WPBAers then what about champions from europe and asia (they also qualify on the regional tours)? If you get that figured out then maybe you could suggest a way for women to qualify.