PFD Cues pricing....WTF???

[George Fels]

Paul Drexler cues

Not sure how much I can add to this thread, except to say that I carried a cue design around in my head for nearly a quarter-century before I selected Paul Drexler to make it. It's as beautiful a cue as you're ever going to see, and plays as well as it looks. I doubt I can offer any higher praise. GF

 

[stikapos]

Ask Mr. Drexler how many "titlist" conversions he made that included a blank that is not from anything Brunswick made, or even USA-made for that matter....

That will explain why his "titlist" conversions don't sell...

AMEN, AMEN, AMEN. I never thought that anyone would have the stones to toss anything contrary into this "lovefest". Just based on common sense, I can't see how so many Titlists made it so many years after they were manufactured. Nor why everyone goes gaga over them. Wood may be crap now, but glue and build techniques are far far better.

Paul makes a visually appealling cue, but I think his own words sum it up well. He tries to make an honest cue (save for the "titlist" conversions....which could be said of several other cuemakers). He aint the best, he's far from the worst. If you like his stuff, that's great. I could never afford his stuff, and now that I can, I'm simply not interested. There are simply so many choices out there today. Find something you like a stick a predator shaft on it. voila.

tim

tim

 

[Monstermash]

Hmmm...... Interesting how different everyone's opinions are.

Let me ask this to 1pRosco and Stikpos...... Where are you getting your info that the Titlist cues that Paul has made are not in fact true Titlist blanks? Do you have any proof other than what someone may have heard second hand or just outright speculation?

The reason I ask this question is that I have been to Paul's shop on many occasions and have seen the blanks in their raw form. I remember one time specifically about 10 years ago. It was my first trip to his shop and he gave me a tour. I noticed a bunch of what looked to be house cues on a shelf and asked what they were. Paul took a few of them down and showed them to me. They were raw unfinished Titlists.

Discerning what a real Titlist is and is not is fairly simple if you know what you're looking for. First, there should be some inconsistencies in the dye on the veneers. The Dyes used back then were not as consistant as they are now so the results were often rather odd looking as each veneer was a slightly different color even on the same point. If you look at the photo I've enclosed below of my conversion, you can see what I mean.

Additionally, if you look at something that is that old it's fairly easy to tell it wasn't made recently. Along with the veneers colors varying there are also quite a bit of other things if you look close that aren't quite right. I have had an indepth look at some of the Titlist blanks that Paul had to discard because there were problems with them. The problems range from the points coming unglued (again, back then the glue wasn't as good as it is now) to air pockets between the veneers. The points coming unglued is the reason why some of Pauls Titlist conversions have point caps/spearheads on them. They can be repaired but don't look to nice if the end of the point has been broken off over time. While the point caps stray away from the traditional look many people are after it at least saves the cue so it can be converted.

So, if you really feel that Paul isn't using "real" Titlist then I suggest you give him a call and ask him how he came to own them in the first place. Or if you feel more comfortable shoot me a pm with your phone number and I'll relate the story he told me. Otherwise I think it's very bad form to make accusations without having proof or be willing to show it to us.

 

[pdcue]

Hey all,

I have an observation I would like to share with you and I would like some feedback.

I have been spending a good deal of time recently looking for the right cue. By that I mean the one that I like the aesthetics of as well as the hit/playability. I had a cue for about a month the fit the playability requirement but I ended up selling it to a friend because he really wanted it and he needed a good cue as his game has been improving significantly lately and I didn't want him to be held back by the crappy POS he was playing with.

Anyway, as I have been looking at all the for sale threads here I have found quite a few cues that I have liked and quite a few that I didn't. What has me confused is the pricing on some of the offerings. I'm not going to single out any particular maker with the exception of Paul Drexler as his cues are the ones that have me the most confused.

The reason for my confusion is I just can't seem to figure out where the current pricing trend is coming from. Paul had been making cues for 20 years and in that time he has demonstrated his ability to make truely magnificent cues both in terms of playability and aesthetics and from what I've seen in the responses in these threads many people agree with me.
While browsing the ads here I found some of his cues have been offered for ridiculously low prices. Meanwhile there are makers that have been only building cues for a few years that are commanding much higher prices. Not for nothing and no offense intended, but many of these offerings I wouldn't pay half or even a third the asking price for. I mean really, $800, $900, $1000 and even upwards of $1600-$1800 for a PJ wrapless cue from makers who have only been making cues for less than 5-6 years? No way can you tell me that they are worth this much money.

To be more specific regarding Pauls cues, I would like to call attention to a few of his Titlist conversions that I have come across listed for sale. One example is the one Quality Cues has listed. It has been available for 3 months now and no one has purchased it and it's very reasonably priced at $1290 OBO with an Ivory joint. On the contrary, there was a Titlist made by another maker that sold for around $1800. It's not to say that I don't respect this maker because I do but there is no way he builds a better cue than Paul. Maybe he's on par with him but certainly not better IMHO.

Another thing that has me puzzled is the current wait time for a PFD cue. I ordered one recently and was shocked when Paul told me I would have it in only a few months. A FEW MONTHS????? Really? Only a few months for a PFD? How can that be when there are makers out there with 2,3, or even 4+ year waiting lists that don't make cues nearly as good in quality? Not to mention the cue I ordered had 4 IVORY points w/veneers with an elephant wrap and Ivory Hoppe ring and the cost was only $1500.

So whats the deal with PFD cues in the market right now? Why are they not commanding the pricing that is more in line with the quality of workmanship? Can someone please answer this for me?

Thanks,
'Mash

Here is a link to the Wlki... page on 'the law of supply and demand'.

It gives a good intro level explaination of the concept.

A quick read should clear up your confussion.

Dale

 

[1pRoscoe]

I respectfully retract my prior statements and publicly apologize for posting inaccurate information.

 

[poohkiller]

Ask Mr. Drexler how many "titlist" conversions he made that included a blank that is not from anything Brunswick made, or even USA-made for that matter....

That will explain why his "titlist" conversions don't sell...

This has me interested. I have never heard / read about this anywhere - and I just don't get it. I mean once Paul has sold his cues they he's done on his part but there were MANY cue dealers selling PFD Titlist or 'Titlist' conversions and not a single word has been spoken about this. [and I seriously doubt that none of them knew / would have known about this - and if they knew why did they buy a PFD at the first place]

Once again: I have not heard about what you have implied but I would love to have the whole picture as fractions don't make sense or sincerity to me. All I knew for sure is that he has (had?) Burton Spain blanks.

 

[stikapos]

Supplies from 10 years ago with issues, I believe. Drilling out the top of the points because they split, I believe. New looking fantastically vibrant nearly perfect points, I don't. Today, Titlist conversions seem to sprout up all over the place. Paul makes a very pretty cue. I won't argue with that. He's got a good knowledge of wood. However, I'm not a fan of expensive, pretty cues. Why ? Because I never want to cry over a cue when I have to hit some pain in the a$$ over the head with it! And as you all know, playing in bars in the APA, this occurence is always just a moment away.

tim

 

[mia]

I just don't understand why someone who is capable of making razor sharp points (as show in SOME of his cues) opts to make rounded points in so many of his cues.

And I still don't understand why someone would take a beautiful titlest blank and slap a uniloc pin on it.

My reasons for not liking them are pretty simple... the reasons above, and overall personal taste. I'm not a huge fan of spear inlays on top of points. I'm not a huge fan of rounded inlays. And with some materials like abalone and malachite, if they are going to be used, I like them used in smaller quantities. And sometimes, his cues are a bit 'busy'.

Again, just taste. But I'd bet I'm not the only one who feels like this.

 

[OTB]

90% of all cues are over priced, it is what you sell it for is the worth, not what you ask. Some cue makers think there time is worth big $$, some get it, some wish they could. Dont get me wrong, there is alot of cue makers out there that there cues are works of art and deserve the $$, most don't............I would buy a $ 50 cue if it looks nice and plays nice, if that was my bugit. Spend what you want and enjoy....as for PFD; I like them and would have one if in my bugit....:smile:

P.S. uni-loc the worst invention of the 21 century.......

Hey all,

I have an observation I would like to share with you and I would like some feedback.

I have been spending a good deal of time recently looking for the right cue. By that I mean the one that I like the aesthetics of as well as the hit/playability. I had a cue for about a month the fit the playability requirement but I ended up selling it to a friend because he really wanted it and he needed a good cue as his game has been improving significantly lately and I didn't want him to be held back by the crappy POS he was playing with.

Anyway, as I have been looking at all the for sale threads here I have found quite a few cues that I have liked and quite a few that I didn't. What has me confused is the pricing on some of the offerings. I'm not going to single out any particular maker with the exception of Paul Drexler as his cues are the ones that have me the most confused.

The reason for my confusion is I just can't seem to figure out where the current pricing trend is coming from. Paul had been making cues for 20 years and in that time he has demonstrated his ability to make truely magnificent cues both in terms of playability and aesthetics and from what I've seen in the responses in these threads many people agree with me.
While browsing the ads here I found some of his cues have been offered for ridiculously low prices. Meanwhile there are makers that have been only building cues for a few years that are commanding much higher prices. Not for nothing and no offense intended, but many of these offerings I wouldn't pay half or even a third the asking price for. I mean really, $800, $900, $1000 and even upwards of $1600-$1800 for a PJ wrapless cue from makers who have only been making cues for less than 5-6 years? No way can you tell me that they are worth this much money.

To be more specific regarding Pauls cues, I would like to call attention to a few of his Titlist conversions that I have come across listed for sale. One example is the one Quality Cues has listed. It has been available for 3 months now and no one has purchased it and it's very reasonably priced at $1290 OBO with an Ivory joint. On the contrary, there was a Titlist made by another maker that sold for around $1800. It's not to say that I don't respect this maker because I do but there is no way he builds a better cue than Paul. Maybe he's on par with him but certainly not better IMHO.

Another thing that has me puzzled is the current wait time for a PFD cue. I ordered one recently and was shocked when Paul told me I would have it in only a few months. A FEW MONTHS????? Really? Only a few months for a PFD? How can that be when there are makers out there with 2,3, or even 4+ year waiting lists that don't make cues nearly as good in quality? Not to mention the cue I ordered had 4 IVORY points w/veneers with an elephant wrap and Ivory Hoppe ring and the cost was only $1500.

So whats the deal with PFD cues in the market right now? Why are they not commanding the pricing that is more in line with the quality of workmanship? Can someone please answer this for me?

Thanks,
'Mash

 

[poohkiller]

I just don't understand why someone who is capable of making razor sharp points (as show in SOME of his cues) opts to make rounded points in so many of his cues.

I am eagerly anticipating the moment when someone mentions this in a Ginacue or a JossWest thread in this context.

NOTE: I agree with you on this one and on the taste part as well - I agree 100%, I am just wondering.

 

[1pRoscoe]

I respectfully retract my prior statements and publicly apologize for posting inaccurate information.

 

[Monstermash]

Supplies from 10 years ago with issues, I believe. Drilling out the top of the points because they split, I believe. New looking fantastically vibrant nearly perfect points, I don't.

I can see why it might be difficult to understand but this may help.

Titlist cues were made starting in the 30's and were produced up until the late 50's. Quality of materials varied greatly from when they were first introduced to when they finally stopped being manufactured. Additionally you have to consider what kind of use the particular Titlist (blank) was subjected to. By that I mean maybe it was in a private home and never saw the abuse that comes from being in a pool room. Some of them have been locked away for many years in a closet and weren't exposed to much UV light which would have had the bleaching effect on the veneers. Also, when turned down for the conversion the veneers get much brighter once the top layer has been removed. Adding finish really brings them to life. Most of the conversions that have the really vibrant veneers came from blanks that were originally made in the late 50's.

Here is a link to some additional explanation on Titlist cues.

http://www.palmercollector.com/Titlist.html

You'll notice that there are a few pictures of unturned "blanks" and that is exactly what I saw at Paul's shop years ago. In fact he still has several of these left that I saw the other day when I was at his shop.

If you still think that Paul is being untruthful then take a look at these other conversions and let me know what you think. They have been made by very respected cue makers and I have never heard anyone questioning their authenticity.

James White

3 Gilberts

Bob Dzuricky

Madison Bob

 

[Monstermash]

I just don't understand why someone who is capable of making razor sharp points (as show in SOME of his cues) opts to make rounded points in so many of his cues.

And I still don't understand why someone would take a beautiful titlest blank and slap a uniloc pin on it.

My reasons for not liking them are pretty simple... the reasons above, and overall personal taste. I'm not a huge fan of spear inlays on top of points. I'm not a huge fan of rounded inlays. And with some materials like abalone and malachite, if they are going to be used, I like them used in smaller quantities. And sometimes, his cues are a bit 'busy'.

Again, just taste. But I'd bet I'm not the only one who feels like this.

As Poohkiller mentioned, take a look at all the stuff Ernie (Ginacue) and Bill Stroud (Josswest) have been doing for years. None of that stuff has sharp (short splice) points and you never hear anyone complaining.

While I agree to a point with your opinion regarding the CNC points, you have to understand that there are many designs that cannot be made without the use of CNC. While I would rather stay away from cues with CNC cut points I have bought a few in the past and been very pleased with them.

If you order a cue from Paul and ask for sharp points, you'll get them providing it fits within the design parameters.

The uni-loc is a completely different story. I hate the uni-loc too but I can see why Paul used them on so many of his cues for a while. Paul was very instrumental in helping to bring the uni-loc joint to market and therefor used them a lot initially. I can't say for sure when the last time he made a cue with one in it, but I'd guess it's been a while.

 

[poohkiller]

One more thought on CNC: you should educate yourself and listen the word of the masters, such as Paul F D or Ernie Gutierrez - a Ginacue interview is available and you may hear some thoughts there regarding the use of CNC equipment. I also doubt that there can be no question regarding the construction of JW cues - with him having been the first to use CNC equipment - either.

Here is a Titlist Gina for you with inlays at the end of the points.

NOTE that this is an early cue and maybe Ernie wouldn't do this today but in case he would not agree with this setup he would have seeked this cue up and destroyed it, if this was a shameful spot in his career (remind yourselves of Gus for a moment who has destroyed his first cue with it not being up to his later standards)

It is weird how hard one has to fight against rumours as those are often considered to be the TRUTH without any materialistic or even fictional evidence convincing so many people about something being a completely bold / false statement.

...Oh, and 'taste', yes, sometimes even that can be obfuscated with... hype. IMO.

 

[Roadie]

Having been a user and mild collector of nice cues of more than 40 years I haveconsistently been impressed with Mr. Drexler's innovativion and design twists. In my opinion he is fit to be mentioned along with such artists as Thomas Wayne and Richard Chudy for their constant pushing of the cue design envelope. I feel that the technique ability to make a sharp point has been perfected for hundreds of years. Today it is possible to achieve this using computer controlled equipment.

Because of that it is my belief that if today's technology were available to cuemakers of yesteryear, such as George Balabushka, Gus Szamboti and even Harvey Martin etc... that they would have welcomed it.

If one goes back far enough then one finds many examples of ornate cues which did not have points at all and no sharp inlays.

This discussion of whether computer controlled equipment adds to or takes away from cuemaking has played out hundreds of times on these forums. The acid test in my opinon is whether the final result is viewed as art by those who view it. Mr. Drexler has consistently proven that the computer is only one more tool with which he can take many parts and make his vision into a real object. Some people spend their lives doing this to make parts for things we use every day and couldn't live without. Cue makers like Mr. Drexler spend their time making cues that we wish we didn't have to live without.

Fortunately for some Mr. Dexler's cus are still at a price that makes them affordable to a greater amount of people.

 

[deanoc]

I am confused aboutsome parts of this thread ,while I know that Paul occasionally makes an inexpensive cue,or a titleist,and may have put a spear on the point of a titleist to improve the appearance,(those old titleist require help and I have seen every cuemaker I know put dots or something to cover the defects in the titleist).. these are not what Paul is known for.
He did use the unilock joints because they are probably asgood a joint as you can buy,but then some cheap cue makers started using these fine joints also and the unilock was percieved as cheap,
I am commenting because I know Paul pretty well,I have bought about half a dozen Ivory wrapped cues from him,and the fanciest Marquettry cues with a Lady composed of hundreds of pieces of tiny exotic metals ivory etc,these cues have sold for over $20,000 in the after market.
When I want something no one else can do,I call Paul.Many of the best cuemakers in the nation have told me that Paul is the only one who can make such things,there is no one who I know that can make these exotic cues,look on his site to see the pictures.
This month I am expecting to get my next treasure an extremely fancy cue with either cowboys and indians or just an indian made of little inlays creating a larger figure. I am unsure because I gave Paul a general idea and left it up to him.

I recommend Pauls cues to anyone but especially to collectors wanting something beautiful that no onr else will do

 

[ibuycues]

Paul Drexler is a charter member of the International Cue Collectors Show, and has been an annual contributor with cues on display since its inception in 2002. His innovations and unique designs stand out, and he is to be given tons of credit for his willingness to take on difficult projects with inlay work that few cuemakers would embark upon.

I mean Great designs! Difficult, and beautifully executed.

His ivory handled cues are among the best in the world.

 

[poohkiller]

Paul Drexler is a charter member of the International Cue Collectors Show, and has been an annual contributor with cues on display since its inception in 2002. His innovations and unique designs stand out, and he is to be given tons of credit for his willingness to take on difficult projects with inlay work that few cuemakers would embark upon.

I mean Great designs! Difficult, and beautifully executed.

His ivory handled cues are among the best in the world.

...And I just don't get why someone with such resume would use overseas made blanks after having cues shown in the Smithsonian Museum... To sell them as $2000 cues after building cues in the $20,000+ range? Yeah right.

 

[Monstermash]

Exactly Poohkiller! Where this rumor started is anyone's guess. If I had to speculate I would say it came from cuemakers who can't compete with Paul on design, execution, and playability.

It's funny, I've been a member of this forum for only a few months but I have been involved with pool for over 20 years and there are things I see here that just make me laugh. I think this is the reason for this thread. As I mentioned in the OP, where do some of these new cuemakers get off charging the money they get for their cues when someone like Paul can make the same cue only much better for far less money?

I think the issue is that there are some members here who come and blow smoke up everyone's butts about how great these new makers are. The problem is they are not anything special and the members touting them are just friends who act like they know what they are talking about. Sometimes an endorsement is a great thing but you have to consider the source especially in the billiards world. If you can't run out the door, why would anyone listen to your opinion regarding how well a cue plays?

Another thought on the use of CNC and it only requires two words....

BLACK BOAR!!!

'Nuff said.

 

[Ken_4fun]

Here is my opinion. I have one of Pauls cues and part of his problem is that they look so good that most people assume that they dont play good.

I played for mine for a couple years and really liked it. I had it refinished, and havent played with it much but it isnt for sale.

For being a cue flipper, that is saying something..

Ken