To your eye, all 10 shots would basically look the same....fingers or not...and only one would go. You'd have to get lucky to win. Would love to meet someday.
Sighting (not aiming) thread
- Thread starter dr_dave
- Start date
To your eye, all 10 shots would basically look the same....fingers or not...and only one would go. You'd have to get lucky to win. Would love to meet someday.
I look forward to seeing these 10 shots one day. Could my "eye" really be that bad, and could CTE really make my "eye" see these shots any better?
Regards,
Dave
Here is an interesting study for you that helps with learning how you should use your eyes to sight a target.
Take a sheet of loose leaf paper, the kind with holes in it. Place it on your desk over another sheet of paper (saves making marks on your desk). Put a pencil in your hand held about shoulder high. In one motion try to place the pencil point in the hole. You can’t do it slowly or you will guide the pencil. You have to move your body slightly before each “shot” so that it is a “new” shot.
You will make a mark on the paper to show your shot pattern. Do this four or five times.
Change to a different color pencil and move your head about 30 degrees to the left so that your right eye is the primary eye estimating your aim. And “shoot” a few shots.
Repeat, turning your head the other way.
So what do you need to do with your eyes to get the best sighted picture that yields the best shot pattern?
Because it is three dimensional problem I “shoot” best with two eyes facing the target. Seems my brain knows how to compensate for the weaker left eye. I suspect that people have different ways of seeing things. When it comes to sighting a target in three dimensions there is no correct way.
I have learned over time that one can use different elements in the environment to improve one’s sighting. For instance when I taught myself to use both sides and the front center of the CB and to attempt to visualize a track the CB runs in my sighting improved in many ways. I think it is not so much a matter of how you see as it is what you use to sight the cue ball and its contact point on the OB. Here too there are many things to use and we select different elements depending upon the person and what they find useful.
With the pencil problem change your way of seeing the target. Establish some reference lines behind the target or on your desk and see if your sighting and your aim improves. My bet is that with addtional elements introduced you will shoot better. Try to visualize a tube that you will pass the pencil through and let your eyes "see" this tube. Perhaps that will improve your sighting and aiming.
Take a sheet of loose leaf paper, the kind with holes in it. Place it on your desk over another sheet of paper (saves making marks on your desk). Put a pencil in your hand held about shoulder high. In one motion try to place the pencil point in the hole. You can’t do it slowly or you will guide the pencil. You have to move your body slightly before each “shot” so that it is a “new” shot.
You will make a mark on the paper to show your shot pattern. Do this four or five times.
Change to a different color pencil and move your head about 30 degrees to the left so that your right eye is the primary eye estimating your aim. And “shoot” a few shots.
Repeat, turning your head the other way.
So what do you need to do with your eyes to get the best sighted picture that yields the best shot pattern?
Because it is three dimensional problem I “shoot” best with two eyes facing the target. Seems my brain knows how to compensate for the weaker left eye. I suspect that people have different ways of seeing things. When it comes to sighting a target in three dimensions there is no correct way.
I have learned over time that one can use different elements in the environment to improve one’s sighting. For instance when I taught myself to use both sides and the front center of the CB and to attempt to visualize a track the CB runs in my sighting improved in many ways. I think it is not so much a matter of how you see as it is what you use to sight the cue ball and its contact point on the OB. Here too there are many things to use and we select different elements depending upon the person and what they find useful.
With the pencil problem change your way of seeing the target. Establish some reference lines behind the target or on your desk and see if your sighting and your aim improves. My bet is that with addtional elements introduced you will shoot better. Try to visualize a tube that you will pass the pencil through and let your eyes "see" this tube. Perhaps that will improve your sighting and aiming.
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Scott,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
Let's say a person best perceives the line of a shot with their dominant eye over the cue. Let's also assume a center-ball hit for now. Do you think that this person should always have the dominant eye directly over the cue, regardless of the cut angle of the shot (i.e., same head position for thin cut as compared to a full hit)? Do you think this should change when using English?
Thanks,
Dave
I just wanted to bump this, hoping Gene will reply:
quoted from dr_dave:
Gene, would you be willing to elaborate a little? How do you recommend people should align their eyes differently on straight-in vs. typical cut vs. thin cut vs. spot aiming? I would think that with straight-in shots and spot aiming (e.g., kick shots), you would want your "vision center" (dominant eye for some people) aligned with the center of the CB. With thin cuts, people have suggested it might be a good idea to align your "vision center" with the edge of the CB. With cut shots, some people seem to recommend keeping the "vision center" aligned with the center of the CB, and be consistent with this so you can train yourself to always see the angle of the shot from the same perspective. Do you recommend shifting the head more as the cut angle increases? If so, how can one be consistent with this? One option is to always align your "vision center" through the contact-point-to-contact-point line. That way, you have a clear alignment target, and the head shift toward the angle of the shot might help you see the shot better, provided you are consistent with the shift. What are your opinions on these different approaches?
Also, I would like to provide a brief description of PERFECT AIM on my aiming website so people will know what it is. If they know the basis of PERFECT AIM, they might be more interested in learning all of the implementation details that can help them effectively apply the system to their game. Would the following be a fair description, based on your post above:
Please provide me with better sentences that more accurately represent the basis of PERFECT AIM. I think if you open PERFECT AIM up for discussion and debate, you might learn some things that might help you improve how you teach it to students in the future. We would also learn from your ideas and opinions.
Thanks,
Dave
quoted from dr_dave:
genomachino said:
Gene, would you be willing to elaborate a little? How do you recommend people should align their eyes differently on straight-in vs. typical cut vs. thin cut vs. spot aiming? I would think that with straight-in shots and spot aiming (e.g., kick shots), you would want your "vision center" (dominant eye for some people) aligned with the center of the CB. With thin cuts, people have suggested it might be a good idea to align your "vision center" with the edge of the CB. With cut shots, some people seem to recommend keeping the "vision center" aligned with the center of the CB, and be consistent with this so you can train yourself to always see the angle of the shot from the same perspective. Do you recommend shifting the head more as the cut angle increases? If so, how can one be consistent with this? One option is to always align your "vision center" through the contact-point-to-contact-point line. That way, you have a clear alignment target, and the head shift toward the angle of the shot might help you see the shot better, provided you are consistent with the shift. What are your opinions on these different approaches?
Also, I would like to provide a brief description of PERFECT AIM on my aiming website so people will know what it is. If they know the basis of PERFECT AIM, they might be more interested in learning all of the implementation details that can help them effectively apply the system to their game. Would the following be a fair description, based on your post above:
PERFECT AIM (trademarked by Gene Albrecht): A system for aligning your vision for different types of shots: straight-in shots, typical cuts, thin cuts, and spot aiming (e.g., kick shots).
I would like to include one or two additional sentences that better explain the basis for PERFECT AIM (without divulging the implementation secrets). For example (I'm not suggesting this is what you believe or not. I'm just including this as an example of the types of sentences I want to add):
??? With straight-in and spot-aim shots, you align your dominant eye with the center of the cue ball. With thin cuts you align you dominant eye with the inside edge of the CB. ???
Please provide me with better sentences that more accurately represent the basis of PERFECT AIM. I think if you open PERFECT AIM up for discussion and debate, you might learn some things that might help you improve how you teach it to students in the future. We would also learn from your ideas and opinions.
Thanks,
Dave
They have to be visible in my peripheral vision while getting into stance; otherwise my cue would be pointing at the target but not necessarily at the CB! But what I'm saying is that once I'm down and have figured out how to hold my bridge hand to achieve the desired tip position, I don't believe the visibility of the cue or CB is relevant; I'm just looking at the OB like a pitcher would look at the strike zone.
I know it doesn't sound very believable, but I pocket more consistently if I don't. I do this as a practice exercise, and I hit the center of the pocket most accurately this way. In actual play, I do look at the CB to establish tip placement, but I kind of "quarantine" that part of the routine: Stand behind the shot, focus in on the contact point, hold focus while stepping in and getting down. Look away from the contact point in order to establish tip placement, got it, okay now we're done looking away. From here on out it's fierce concentration on the contact point. Practice strokes, pause, final stroke, finish, freeze.
I honestly have no idea. Since I don't consciously place my head, I just don't know.
I do know I consistently have the cue under the center of my chin, but due to possible head tilt, I'm not sure if it's centered under my eyes. The only reason I know it's in the center of my chin is that I have a low stance and if I've let my beard grow long enough it actually forms a part while I'm playing from where the cue rubs.
My theorem on accurate shooting is that everything matters; bridge hand placement, body alignment in all its complexity, and precisely straight (or repeatably crooked) stroking, and that the variables that are crucial are so many that they can't possibly all be consciously controlled, or even consciously understood. Giving control over to the subconscious and its power to integrate the feedback from every shot you've ever attempted is the only way to get it right with sufficient accuracy and precision, and what the subconscious needs as input is clear and focused reckoning of exactly where the target is. From there it controls the muscles and makes the "magic" happen, and any act of trying to look down the cue and adjust based on what you consciously perceive as the line will only diminish said magic.
-Andrew
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I do like the players you asked and the questions you asked but the information you received is not the most accurate information you could have received.
It is possible they gave you the answers that they thought you needed rather than what you wanted.
Good post ... well-stated. However, I think everybody always has room for improvement (except maybe Efren :wink; and with practice, we can all get better. I don't think anybody should "learn to accept" that they can't be great.
The purpose for the discussion (AKA "analysis paralysis") is not to come up with a magic answer that will make everybody great. The purpose is to better understand what different people do and why, whether or not they actually know what they do. Also, better understanding helps instructors better know what to look for when trying to help a student improve how he or she "sights" and "aims" (if he of she is having major "issues" in these areas).
Regards,
Dave
Everyone can become better. That's a fact.
Pool is not only about natural talent. It is about knowledge as well as athletic ability and visual excellence.
It is also about a stubborn unwillingness to compromise that this is all I can become.
To accept what you are today is to say that you do not deserve to dream dreams or even to be happy.
Life would be a poor existence without hope to improve yourself.
Greatness at pool can be earned but it must be an internal flame that remains inextinguishable. It cannot be obtained from others. You must have it or develop it yourself.
-----------------
The following are all quotes from one man who understood success, failure and acceptance.
"Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat. "
"I am only an average man but, by George, I work harder at it than the average man. "
"It is only through labor and painful effort, by grim energy and resolute courage, that we move on to better things. "
The boy who is going to make a great man must not make up his mind merely to overcome a thousand obstacles, but to win in spite of a thousand repulses and defeats.
"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."
JoeyA (trying to pump himself up for Galveston :grin
Thanks for the inspirational quotes, and good luck being all that you can be (and more!) in Galveston.(trying to pump himself up for Galveston :grin
Regards,
Dave
I for one don't doubt it that they meant the answers or non-answers they gave you.
How do you get to be a champion? Spend your young years with a cue stick in your hand, thinking about little else, wanting it so bad that everything else in life comes second and playing pool to put food on the table. Add to this mix a certain type of street smarts intelligence, nerves of steel, access to great players to learn from and inspire you, good eyesight and coordination, and you have the makings of a champion.
I'm sure there are exceptions but I don't think too many.
Interesting, this sighting thread. My cue is somewhere near the center of my eyes but that can change to a small degree. I sight using edge to center. Actual center per-say is not near as important except as a reference to where I actually strike the c/b.
I shoot angles, I mean I don't really care what the angle is but I use ball overlap to define the angle I see to the target. It was Hal I think that said there are no contact points in pool. I believe that or at least I have never seen one nor do I see how anyone else does. However this is sighting so if you see one, good for you I suppose.
Spidey gave a link to a little game. I like that game and now I see your eyes can deceive you. Finding center was not big a problem but some other parts of the game are tricky. That makes me think what I originally thought is true. After cataract surgery some angles, especially to the left are off a fraction. I have and will continue to explore a better head position for those and all shots.
Too bad there isn't a specific game or visual simulator for pool. Don't get me wrong, my eyes are pretty good its just they have changed and I need to sort it out. Of course I don't have lots of spare time like I did years ago so it will just take a bit longer. I still can run racks but sometimes the o/b just does't go where I think I am aimed. LOL Whats new!
Rod
I shoot angles, I mean I don't really care what the angle is but I use ball overlap to define the angle I see to the target. It was Hal I think that said there are no contact points in pool. I believe that or at least I have never seen one nor do I see how anyone else does. However this is sighting so if you see one, good for you I suppose.
Spidey gave a link to a little game. I like that game and now I see your eyes can deceive you. Finding center was not big a problem but some other parts of the game are tricky. That makes me think what I originally thought is true. After cataract surgery some angles, especially to the left are off a fraction. I have and will continue to explore a better head position for those and all shots.
Too bad there isn't a specific game or visual simulator for pool. Don't get me wrong, my eyes are pretty good its just they have changed and I need to sort it out. Of course I don't have lots of spare time like I did years ago so it will just take a bit longer. I still can run racks but sometimes the o/b just does't go where I think I am aimed. LOL Whats new!
Rod
This seems like the "conventional wisdom," but it seems like some of the CTE and PERFECT AIM people have different ideas on this. What do other instructors and players think about where the eyes should be on different shots?
Thanks,
Dave
I'm probably the only guy in the whole world that does this, but I just look at the whole shot: my bridge hand, cue shaft, tip, cue ball, object ball and whatever part of the table is within my field of vision -- and then I pull the trigger.
No ghost ball, no lines, no curves, no colliding anything. I see the whole shot, with probably the most important aspects of my view being where I'm hitting the cue ball and whatever elevation my cue has for that particular shot.
Frankly, I've never understood all the Kabuki some guys go through aiming shots. What has always been far more important, to me, is that I set up in a consistent manner, so that my peepers always get the same view. What happens then are two things (if you've developed a good PSR): being accurately aligned on the shot is a given, and; your wetware (brain) always has the same set of reference points -- visually and mechanically. The shot is then either on, or not, and all you're doing is making final adjustments to allow for the usual suspects: speed, swerve, squirt, throw, elevation, humidity, cloth condition, rails, and how the pockets are playing.
Which, when you think about it, is why these "systems" can't be 100% accurate. What players are seeing, when they find success with any of them, is just the result of being more systematic, which goes back to the issue of a consistent PSR, and how *that* is really at the heart of things.
Lou Figueroa
Lou,
I think you're dead on with your perspective....Systems may help someone who is absolutely a beginner to get a general idea of where to hit the ball, but at some point instinct and feel take over.
FYI, Mike Page's videos on aiming and sighting are a "must-see" for everybody reading these aiming and sighting threads. They can be found here:
He points out that the only sighting that makes sense for a straight in shot is over the cue along the contact-point-to-contact-point line.
He also points out that with a thin cut, the sighting line that makes the most sense is also along the contact-point-to-contact-point line (which will be very close edge-to-edge for a really thin cut).
Then he suggests that maybe you should also sight along the contact-point-to-contact-point line for all shots in between (any cut shot). He also makes a good argument that you should probably never sight along a line that is not parallel to the aiming line (which is along the cue for a center-ball hit).
This all makes a lot of sense to me. What do you guys think? I especially hope Scott, Gene, Randy, Steve, and other instructors out there will give us their opinions and let us know if, how, and why they might teach this differently.
Regards,
Dave
He points out that the only sighting that makes sense for a straight in shot is over the cue along the contact-point-to-contact-point line.
He also points out that with a thin cut, the sighting line that makes the most sense is also along the contact-point-to-contact-point line (which will be very close edge-to-edge for a really thin cut).
Then he suggests that maybe you should also sight along the contact-point-to-contact-point line for all shots in between (any cut shot). He also makes a good argument that you should probably never sight along a line that is not parallel to the aiming line (which is along the cue for a center-ball hit).
This all makes a lot of sense to me. What do you guys think? I especially hope Scott, Gene, Randy, Steve, and other instructors out there will give us their opinions and let us know if, how, and why they might teach this differently.
Regards,
Dave
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This is all about consistency, which is required to align yourself correctly with the aim line, but it says nothing about how to find the aim line. Sounds like your "kabuki" is to simply find it by feel (me too) - but everybody can't do that.
pj
chgo
I think the misconception with aiming systems is that they're for beginners who can't find the line by feel. I think the exact opposite is true - actually, I know it's true.
I think these systems are for advanced players--- not for beginners. Most beginners do not have developed sighting or developed technique good enough to be successful with this stuff.
The purpose of these systems is repeatability--- consistency. I can feel balls in as good as anyone; however, developing a solid pre-shot routine on feel alone is tough-- since feel, by nature, is different every time.
These systems are all about defining your pre-shot routine (I think they're one and the same).
Dave
One Eye Aming
I tried this as an experiment several years ago and found it worked for me. I shoot right handed and my right eye is dominant. By using only my right eye to shoot, I keep the right eye over the contact point on the cue ball on all shots. So in a straight in shot the eye is directly over center. On a cut shot to the left my eye is to the left of center and still over the cue ball contact point.
Now this is my process. When I get down to shoot I set up with a general ghost ball focus. When this feels comfortable, I align my eye to the cue ball contact point and then focus on the object ball contact point.
If I use right or left English, I do that by feel based on experience.
When I started the experiment, I tried to strengthen my eye by closing my other eye when doing daily tasks such mowing the lawn, etc., and continued this process for a couple of weeks to give it a fair chance.
It may not work for others but it sure has helped me.
I tried this as an experiment several years ago and found it worked for me. I shoot right handed and my right eye is dominant. By using only my right eye to shoot, I keep the right eye over the contact point on the cue ball on all shots. So in a straight in shot the eye is directly over center. On a cut shot to the left my eye is to the left of center and still over the cue ball contact point.
Now this is my process. When I get down to shoot I set up with a general ghost ball focus. When this feels comfortable, I align my eye to the cue ball contact point and then focus on the object ball contact point.
If I use right or left English, I do that by feel based on experience.
When I started the experiment, I tried to strengthen my eye by closing my other eye when doing daily tasks such mowing the lawn, etc., and continued this process for a couple of weeks to give it a fair chance.
It may not work for others but it sure has helped me.
Very well put.........
Hi there Joey,
I like what you say. And you say it well. Great Job. Geno........
I do like the players you asked and the questions you asked but the information you received is not the most accurate information you could have received.
It is possible they gave you the answers that they thought you needed rather than what you wanted.
Everyone can become better. That's a fact.
Pool is not only about natural talent. It is about knowledge as well as athletic ability and visual excellence.
It is also about a stubborn unwillingness to compromise that this is all I can become.
To accept what you are today is to say that you do not deserve to dream dreams or even to be happy.
Life would be a poor existence without hope to improve yourself.
Greatness at pool can be earned but it must be an internal flame that remains inextinguishable. It cannot be obtained from others. You must have it or develop it yourself.
-----------------
The following are all quotes from one man who understood success, failure and acceptance.
"Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat. "
"I am only an average man but, by George, I work harder at it than the average man. "
"It is only through labor and painful effort, by grim energy and resolute courage, that we move on to better things. "
The boy who is going to make a great man must not make up his mind merely to overcome a thousand obstacles, but to win in spite of a thousand repulses and defeats.
"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."
JoeyA (trying to pump himself up for Galveston :grin
Hi there Joey,
I like what you say. And you say it well. Great Job. Geno........