Should good pool players be barred from local tournements ?

Big Perm said:
420, many of us would love to put in the work.....but after 50+ work hours a week and family time, I get to play about 4-8 hours a week.....I would love to put in 30 or more hours, but priorities won't permit it.....our little weekly tournament draws some huge talent, guys that have placed high in open events....I'm just glad the races are to 3, at least I get a chance :grin:

Point is, I simply do not have nor will allot the time to play 30+ hours a week.....but I still like to compete....even with a handicap, my odds suck and I know I am donating, but every now and again the shots start dropping like they did when I was playing 30 hours a week years ago, and for that, it's worth it.....

I will play you for a beer amigo, come down for a visit and I will be happy to donate :grin:
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I get what you're saying, my friend. I have a wife and kid now, too. I put in maybe 10 hours a week now, but I have had times where I played 30 hours a week or better.

My point was, if you're that disappointed about where you're placing in tournaments, it's your responsibility to play better. (Not the responsibility of the guys who dedicate their LIVES to the game to play worse)

Many of the complainers' practice time comes from one weekly bar table tourney. If they don't win every week, they feel like they got screwed, and they demand that all the good players be banned from that tourney.

I can't even compete with the open level players from my own state...There are a dozen (or more), guys who would KILL me playing any game.

That's not their fault...it's mine, for deciding that a lifetime of raising a family is better than a lifetime of chasing fish...

If you're not willing (or ABLE) to dedicate your life to playing this game, you have to at least appreciate the talent of those who can, instead of asking for more weight...
 
houmatroy said:
Down in South Louisiana we have a few places that just flat out bar good pool players from playing..some even have calcutta's...My thoughts have been the same for over 20 years...that the bigger the name the more money in the calcutta plus it's the cheapest way for up & coming players to play better players so they can see how the game can be played & they can use it as a learning experience...I believe that if it's mostly ball bangers or novices that whoever running the tournement could handicap said player to try and make it as equal as can be to all players..But to flat out BAR a player for being too good is just crazy in my eyes...Just asoon go to the bowling alley & pass out flyers saying we are interested in bowlers who would like to play in our pool tournement...Just was curious on everyone elses thoughts on the subject...To bar or not to bar...that is the question..thx...Troy
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Without reading any of the other posts in this thread I will say this:

It is not fair, or right, to prohibit a player from participating in any competition because they excel at what they do. Basically you are punishing someone for either:

a) being gifted or talented
b) being dedicated or hard-working
c) all of the above

I have been to a lot of local tournaments where some of the regulars complain that they won't play in the tournament anymore because so-and-so is too good and "doesn't belong" in their little tournament.

What they fail to realize, or accept, is that they are getting an opportunity to play someone who they would not normally have a chance to play evenly, thereby giving them a chance to measure themselves.

Or they see this person as someone who is only out to "rob" the tournament. Of course, some of the better regulars would be upset because the presence of stronger players ruins their chances of robbery...:)

It's a sad state of affairs, and many a room owner has capitulated to the regulars, for fear of losing them, their business etc.

Everyone wants to get better, but only some want to play better players. How you achieve one without the other is beyond me.
 
enzo said:
the answer to this question is really VERY VERY easy. it really is. we all sit around and wonder why pool goes nowhere, why you can't make anywhere near a decent living off it if you play good. guess what, we WE DISCOURAGE GOOD PLAY. we are the only sport that does this, and really the only sport in the gutter. you reap what you sew, and we all need to start thinking with a lot more logic when it comes to this stuff.
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I agree. This is the only sport where the 1st stringers set on the bench!
 
mikeyfrost said:
The real issue is why isn't there enough out there for a serious player to go get instead of having to reach into a banger's pocket. If there was enough out there for everybody we wouldnt have this discussion. The local pool rooms need to step up. It's not a bar's job to promote pool, there job is to pedal libations! Anything that happens at a bar is to promote people drinking and eating first, whatever is going on is secondary.

Don't blame the bar owner, blame the pool rooms and sports bars with 8 or more tables. That's the real issue. You know like I know, a good player can end a tournament single handedly. If I owned the business my loyalty is to the guys with a beer in one hand and a bar cue in the other...not the guy drinking a free glass of water ready to steal the 1st place dough.

The pool community needs to be self sustaining so Bobby Budweiser can take down a race to 1 double elim 8 ball tourney and pay half his tab. You have your pool player hat on Troy, take it off and think from the business perspective. You're a smart guy, I read your posts all the time, I think you do KNOW why, you just hate the reasoning behind it. We all do Troy but its a fact we must live with.

In NC one bar owner solved this problem really quickly. Half the money was paid in cash, the rest in bar credit...the good players didn't like that very much but the bar heads absolutely loved it, made em drink more!
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I use to own a bar & restaurant..we had weekly money tournements as well as league play..when Scottie townsend came in he was allowed to play..granted he might only come thru or others his level once in awhile but 95% didn't wine..they enjoyed watching them play & they didnt win all of them...they were upset on more than 1 occassion..now granted if they would have came more regular i would have had to do some sort of handicap to level the field of play but they A+ players didnt come thru town that much back then...even now..so it never was a big problem.
 
mikeyfrost said:
The real issue is why isn't there enough out there for a serious player to go get instead of having to reach into a banger's pocket. If there was enough out there for everybody we wouldnt have this discussion. The local pool rooms need to step up. It's not a bar's job to promote pool, there job is to pedal libations! Anything that happens at a bar is to promote people drinking and eating first, whatever is going on is secondary.

Don't blame the bar owner, blame the pool rooms and sports bars with 8 or more tables. That's the real issue. You know like I know, a good player can end a tournament single handedly. If I owned the business my loyalty is to the guys with a beer in one hand and a bar cue in the other...not the guy drinking a free glass of water ready to steal the 1st place dough.

The pool community needs to be self sustaining so Bobby Budweiser can take down a race to 1 double elim 8 ball tourney and pay half his tab. You have your pool player hat on Troy, take it off and think from the business perspective. You're a smart guy, I read your posts all the time, I think you do KNOW why, you just hate the reasoning behind it. We all do Troy but its a fact we must live with.

In NC one bar owner solved this problem really quickly. Half the money was paid in cash, the rest in bar credit...the good players didn't like that very much but the bar heads absolutely loved it, made em drink more!
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mikeyfrost

You make some good points

Couple of years ago I looked real hard at buying a Pool Bar with a Beer and Wine license and no food. It didn't take me long to see it wasn't the investment for my retirement. I would want player customers and Players are in fact bad business compared to Johnny and Judy Ball Banger who are out for a night of fun. First Player want free table time for practice while they Nurse that one beer they just might buy. Next they want to hustle Johnny & Judy and are competing for the same money they might spend with the Bar. Lastly they run off Johnny & Judy who are now spending their money up the street at the dance hall. Now you ask why Bars don't want tp supple good equipment for the better players???

Sorry but as Pool Players we have made our own bed and now must sleep in it. Their are Golf Hustlers also and other than the fact they work a different style venue I am not sure why Golf doesn't get the same bad rap.
 
houmatroy said:
Down in South Louisiana we have a few places that just flat out bar good pool players from playing..some even have calcutta's...My thoughts have been the same for over 20 years...that the bigger the name the more money in the calcutta plus it's the cheapest way for up & coming players to play better players so they can see how the game can be played & they can use it as a learning experience...I believe that if it's mostly ball bangers or novices that whoever running the tournement could handicap said player to try and make it as equal as can be to all players..But to flat out BAR a player for being too good is just crazy in my eyes...Just asoon go to the bowling alley & pass out flyers saying we are interested in bowlers who would like to play in our pool tournement...Just was curious on everyone elses thoughts on the subject...To bar or not to bar...that is the question..thx...Troy
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Now that I have read the entire thread I will add that I can certainly see both sides, but I like the notion that the pool rooms should step it up and the bar tourneys should not have to worry about this, they just need people to drink...and eat...and drink some more.

Being good is a curse...not that I would know...:)
 
So, a couple of thoughts....

Mikey, you made a really good post....whether a pool hall or bar owner, these guys often have to make tough decisions so they can just stay open....and often times, the good pool players aren't the ones dropping coin.....to find the best guy in the room at a Saturday tourney, just look for the ones drinking water or coke :grin:

Regarding open or regional event, many of us every now and again are willing to pay $100 or so to get mauled by a pro level player.....we do so just to test ourselves and see "what if".....we also don't mind donating a few dollars to the sport we love....

When it comes to local bar tournies or hadicapped events, especially at a cheap price, most of us will play if we feel that on our best day, with a few rolls, we can take down the cheese....even if it's just a small chance, we are in.....but there is zero fun in playing when you are gonna lose, and that is how tournaments die.....the best way to let the top players still get in is with a viable handicap system....

Next, this is not the "problem with pool crushing the hopes of better players".....look at any sport that people love to compete in......they ALL have handicap systems so people can compete with others of their same skill......golf has handicapped tournies that are HUGELY successful.....hell, I played volleyball in college - even with a bad back and bad knees, I can play big tournies at an "A" level, where I belong.....football, they have handicap levels at Air it Out.....basketball, same thing.....all sports have some type of rating system....

It's not that pool punishes you for playing well - that is a complete falsehood.....many people on here play golf so I like the golf comparisons.....if you excel in local tournies, you graduate to regional events....if you excel there, you graduate to the Nationwide there.....and if you win 3 tournies, you bump to the PGA.....it would suck if Tiger showed up every weekend at your local tourney.....

And why wouldn't a great pool player want to continue their path to make each step up.....in your competetive juices, where is there a challenge in beating a banger???? Where is the value in being a big fish in a tiny pond??? If you think they should practice and earn a victory, shouldn't that same person be thinking they should practice and beat Archer????
 
Aaron_S said:
There's another side to this as well. Depending on how good Ken plays relative to how good everyone else in the room plays, it may be in Ken's best interest to not continue to play in the tournament. A few people may appreciate having a better player around; someone to learn from who helps to elevate the overall level of play in the room, but many will develop a high level of jealousy and animosity toward Ken, which can lead to problems. Ken is probably better off seeking competition from players closer to his own speed. People have a tendency to become less friendly, or even outwardly hostile, toward a guy who snaps off their tournament nearly every week.

Aaron
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Yep, I've seen it happen. The next thing you know Ken and a few guys his speed are the only ones showing up for the tournament. I saw a guy in St Louis snap off a handicapped tournament 8 weeks in a row. Every week they raised his handicap and he just outran the handicap.

Perhaps an option would be to have two tournaments. After you snap off the regular tournament a few times you graduate to the A tournament and play people your own speed.

The tournament director is going to have people upset at him no matter what he does. That's one reason a lot of places don't have tournaments, too much grief.
 
Ok..so what would you do in this situation...


You have a break and run contest going on...it gets up to a huge amount...say 10k

Now from the woodwork come the pros....and strong shortstops...


Should they be allowed to walk in and walk away with the money the regulars there every week put in? Should they be barred from buying tickets?

R
 
Tom In Cincy said:
If you have to ask this question, then you should answer this question... Why do you play in tournaments?

Another question comes to mind, why would a pool hall even have a tournament?
To provide competition for the players in an organized manner with an even playing environment?

Otherwise you could just as easily spend your time in a pool hall just matching up all the time. Only playing the players you want to for what ever the bet is you agree with and what ever game you agree to play. And, you can even chose which rules you play by. No 3 foul rule, 'call pocket' ball or just plain... no luck shots. You get to make up the rules before you play one game.... is that what you want?

If it is an OPEN tournament that it is your choice to enter. If you don't like the players that enter, don't enter.

Let all players that pay PLAY.
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There is another side to the coin, that side is why PLAY if you have ZERO CHANCE of EVER WINNING ANYTHING.

Would you send your 8 years old Kids Little League Baseball Team to
compete even against the A's or Giants in the Bay Area for the experience of loosing?

Breaking up people in brackets where they are bracketed like in an "A", "B", or, "C" Skill level, letting them compete and win again players of there skill level has merit if you want to keep people playing pool.

If you are only looking for Players to contribute to a Prize Fund that Open Play is the way to go, but you will have less long term people competing, and playing pool IMHO.

Other Successful Amateur Sports do survive a Handicapping System, like Golf, Tennis, Softball, etc.
 
I have read all the posts...and I guess I do see things from a "bar owner's" stand point....bars are not there to boost pool players abilities....they are there to boost their income. Income is number one in any business. Now as far as the pool industry goes...I see a never ending battle. You have these situations...which basically discourages pool excellence....but on top of all that ....we have the APA that is doing the same thing. If I have a pool team that meets the point requirements to the number....me and my team are discouraged from getting any better, so that we can still meet the point requirements. So...seeing these two factors....where is the industry headed?? Some how...the industry needs to thrive on excellence, at some point. It is to the point that one, is rewarded to be average in my opinion?? I just think it is a shame, that this sport is one of the greatest sports played...but has so many road blocks to ever get itself off the ground.
 
Here's what happened in our area concerning this very subject....Several years ago we were having tournaments just about every night somewhere locally. They were 8 ball races to 1, double elim. with the occasional race to 3 9-ball. The tournaments had good turnouts and monster calcuttas because the format was setup to where anyone could win. Then after a couple years people started to complain(weak players as well as strong) about the races being too short. People wanted more playing bang for their buck. This is when things started going south. They all started playing longer races which probably tripled the chances that the stronger player is gonna beat the weaker player. Now everyone wants to complain about so and so winning every week. Before the changes, a young Shannon Daulton (who could give everyone in the room the 7 ball) might go 8 weeks and not even cash, all of the sudden he's winning 4 or 5 tournaments in a row and people want to ban him from playing. They forget about the $2,000 in calcutta money he generated weeks before the changes without booking a win.

Running local tournaments is a tough mixture to get right. It's impossible to make all the players happy, but you have to make it to where anyone has a chance to win. The better player still has the advantage but you can limit that by the format. I've seen $2 calcutta players snap off a tournament that has the likes of Shannon Daulton, John Brumback, Tony Mougey, Mark Jarvis. Keith McCready even showed up one day and left a loser.

The only "players" you want to cater to and protect are your calcutta players. These are the people that might not even play in the tournament but generate lots of action by buying players. Give me 10 people that will gamble high in the calcutta and I'll have the best tournament in the state within a months time. Nobody would be barred and everybody would want to play.
 
In VA we had a thing like that happen, pot got up the ~$5k+ in this bar and notbody could take it off. You shoulda seen the folks that showed up there. The place was wall to wall with the best of DC/ MD/ VA looking to snap it off, none of them ever been into the bar for any other reason.

An AZBer finally snapped it off with a damn sporty runout (bar box 8b). Friggin tough, with about 100 guys crammed into a small room, small enough that space had to be made for just about every shot.

That AZBro was___ ?:wink:

RShellhouse said:
Ok..so what would you do in this situation...


You have a break and run contest going on...it gets up to a huge amount...say 10k

Now from the woodwork come the pros....and strong shortstops...


Should they be allowed to walk in and walk away with the money the regulars there every week put in? Should they be barred from buying tickets?

R
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Rackboy1126 said:
I have read all the posts...and I guess I do see things from a "bar owner's" stand point....bars are not there to boost pool players abilities....they are there to boost their income. Income is number one in any business. Now as far as the pool industry goes...I see a never ending battle. You have these situations...which basically discourages pool excellence....but on top of all that ....we have the APA that is doing the same thing. If I have a pool team that meets the point requirements to the number....me and my team are discouraged from getting any better, so that we can still meet the point requirements. So...seeing these two factors....where is the industry headed?? Some how...the industry needs to thrive on excellence, at some point. It is to the point that one, is rewarded to be average in my opinion?? I just think it is a shame, that this sport is one of the greatest sports played...but has so many road blocks to ever get itself off the ground.
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Bars survive on the sales of alcohol is what pays the bills, the license to serve beer, wine, and hard liquor in Arizona is about a $150,000.00 Buck Investment.

My friend had a Bar with 2 Bar boxes, he catered to "C" & "B" Players, and sponsored league teams of "C" & "B".

He honestly did not want "A" Players as he said they don't spend MONEY, on what pays the bills.
 
RShellhouse said:
Ok..so what would you do in this situation...


You have a break and run contest going on...it gets up to a huge amount...say 10k

Now from the woodwork come the pros....and strong shortstops...


Should they be allowed to walk in and walk away with the money the regulars there every week put in? Should they be barred from buying tickets?

R
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Come on too easy a question, they can't buy more than 10 tickets until they play 3 consecutive tournaments at which then they can buy an unlimited amount. That's how we used to do it and it worked.

Break and run pots and break contests help tourneys a lot.
 
bar tourney

pay the real good player to run the tourney a few weeks. lol. keep him busy and out of the action.
 
houmatroy said:
I use to own a bar & restaurant..we had weekly money tournements as well as league play..when Scottie townsend came in he was allowed to play..granted he might only come thru or others his level once in awhile but 95% didn't wine..they enjoyed watching them play & they didnt win all of them...they were upset on more than 1 occassion..now granted if they would have came more regular i would have had to do some sort of handicap to level the field of play but they A+ players didnt come thru town that much back then...even now..so it never was a big problem.
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I hear you, that makes sense. The thing is you are a pool guy too. You have connections. On top of that the guys who probably don't spend with others will spend with you to keep it in the fam. If it was few and far between that the champions showed up of course there would be no problems. Now if it was every week you know you would have had to act. One of my best friends growing up has owned a bar(parents retired but still work a little) for the last 2 years. He has all types of themed nights to keep different crowds coming in. They have 2 Valleys in there. He doesnt open the table or allow for table time. The average guy having a few beers just wants to hit balls for a game or two with another buddy, that's what pool tables in a bar are for. If you're playing you prob are not drinking as much as you would be if your just on the chill.

This is one of the best threads in a while because I think lots of us realize this is an issue. I gotta hand it to Big Perm, he's right. If you're good enough than it is time to hop in the car and go to bigger tournaments. I don't penalize anyone for not working on their game although I do admire those who work tirelessly on their game. Pool is not one size fits all. The bars are the best place for the guys who cant make a ball. If you can make a ball, the bar is not where you should be going for the mula. That $100 1st place money can cost the bar exponentially more than that in lost business. The game isnt always about winning and losing. No one likes to feel hustled or cheated though. If you play great and you beat up on a banger straight up, they will feel hustled and cheated.
 
Black-Balled said:
In VA we had a thing like that happen, pot got up the ~$5k+ in this bar and notbody could take it off. You shoulda seen the folks that showed up there. The place was wall to wall with the best of DC/ MD/ VA looking to snap it off, none of them ever been into the bar for any other reason.

An AZBer finally snapped it off with a damn sporty runout (bar box 8b). Friggin tough, with about 100 guys crammed into a small room, small enough that space had to be made for just about every shot.

That AZBro was___ ?:wink:
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Wow, that's a nice haul for a B&R! At least somebody got that money, though. We had a 3-ball pot (paid out for anyone making all 3 on the snap) at a local place that got up over $1,800. Each week they would write the new total on a whiteboard in the room. One day the board was just gone, and we were told that the 3-ball tournament was being shut down due to lack of interest. So the house basically just stole that money right out of the players' pockets. :eek:

Aaron
 
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