Should good pool players be barred from local tournements ?

[Snapshot9]

Tournaments

First, let me say that weekly handicapped tournaments (5 or 10 entry fee) get too expensive for the better players. In other words, what they win does not justify what they spend and the time spent in the tournament.
They often have to play their hearts out (because many of these tournaments are over handicapped) to win the tournament.

I would rather have it like Stix, here in Wichita, does it. Friday and Saturday night they have an 8 ball tournament, race to 2, with paying 150% on Friday night and 200% on Saturday night. The short race offers lessor players a chance to beat anyone, unless the player is a real novice at the game.
These tournaments start at 10 o'clock at night.

Important point - The winner of the 8 ball tournament must sit out for 2 weeks following the win. If you win on Friday night, you must sit out the following 2 Fridays, but you can still play on Saturday night, and vica versa.

On Sunday night, a 9 ball tournament is held at 8:30 p.m., a race to 3, that pays out 150%. The winner of the 9 ball tournament does not have to sit out,and can play the following week.

I feel this is about the best Stix could do and keep everyone happy, the better players, the middle players, and even a novice or two, with fairness
(sit out rule), decent payouts, and action clear through the weekend every weekend.

By the way, Stix is a fairly new place in Wichita (open a year/ year n half), and now has 18 Valley Bar tables, 3 GC, and is getting a Snooker table up to speed. Located on South Meridian, just south of Pawnee.
They are hosting the Kansas VNEA Team Championships on Nov. 6th through the 8th this year.

 

[Black-Balled]

I'm just sayin if Carrie Underwood strolls into a bar's karaoke contest and takes the 1st place prize money one time it's cool she was there. If she showed up the next week, SHE'D BE SINGING BY HER DAMN SELF!

Back in my box.

That is an awesome analogy.

 

[Snapshot9]

Except for one thing ....

The Karaoke contest would be an objective because of subjective reasoning, and in Pool it is all objective since you have a clear winner in sports.

 

[mikeyfrost]

The Karaoke contest would be an objective because of subjective reasoning, and in Pool it is all objective since you have a clear winner in sports.

I have a Yorkie too, you can't be all bad:wink:

If the karaoke analogy is so subjective, I'd like to go all in on staking Carrie Underwood in your local Witchita Karaoke contest. JK but you get the point.

 

[eaglemanmike]

Just My Opinion......

I am also married with 3 kids and work 40-50 hrs. a week. I have been playing local tournaments 2 nights a week for a while now. I am in NO WAY an "A" player and am usually playing matches against competition that is of a much higher skill level than myself. Some nights, play well and go far, others get knocked out early.......
The way I see it, it is my choice to enter or not. I could decide to stay home and run drills on my table, or go enter and see how I do against better players. Get your butt kicked by a "ringer" that wins 8 out of 10, I chalk it up as cheap lessons. You don't improve your game by playing bangers or hanging out drinking with your buddies.
Playing better players will make YOU a better player.... JMO

 

[Andrew Manning]

I am also married with 3 kids and work 40-50 hrs. a week. I have been playing local tournaments 2 nights a week for a while now. I am in NO WAY an "A" player and am usually playing matches against competition that is of a much higher skill level than myself. Some nights, play well and go far, others get knocked out early.......
The way I see it, it is my choice to enter or not. I could decide to stay home and run drills on my table, or go enter and see how I do against better players. Get your butt kicked by a "ringer" that wins 8 out of 10, I chalk it up as cheap lessons. You don't improve your game by playing bangers or hanging out drinking with your buddies.
Playing better players will make YOU a better player.... JMO

Exactly the right way to look at it. I play in a $20 tournament every week, and I only cash a little less than half the time (and most of those are barely in the money, where I'm pretty much just getting my entry fee back), but I ALWAYS get my money's worth out of it.

-Andrew

 

[ShootingArts]

the owner has to pay the bills

They often have to play their hearts out (because many of these tournaments are over handicapped) to win the tournament.

Got to comment on this first: Anybody should have to play their heart out to win a handicapped event. If they don't then the handicap is too soft! That is much like the claims of always giving people too big of spots but then usually outrunning the spot.

All business owners have to make the decisions that keep the doors open. In my many years in businesses I have had to make decisions I didn't like a bunch of times. Likewise as a member of competitive organizations I have had to cast votes for things I didn't like but recognized was for the good of the organization.

When a big time player passes through once in a long time and snaps off a small event people are thrilled he is there. If he, or only two or three players sit on top of an event all the time the thrill leaves in a hurry for most other competitors, . . . and they leave shortly thereafter.

Very few people are willing to donate every week. I never minded because I was always confident that my time was coming and I was just seeding the field. Nobody should complain if I rake in a few pots after paying my dues. Of course some did anyway but there was a lot less uproar.

I was damned near lynched a couple of times for coming in and destroying the competition in some smaller tournaments with fair sized fields. Now I never go to the first tournament or two planning on winning, nor do I try to win every week. If you want to rob people at events you can't rub it in their faces that you are doing it.

Hu

 

[rackmsuckr]

When we moved from a larger city (Seattle) 2 years ago to a much smaller hamlet (Medford) we knew that if people grumbling about Mike Zimmerman, my husband, was bad up there, then it certainly would be down here.

And it was. Mike didn't even play for quite awhile, while I started playing BCA here and making friends. When Mike started playing again, everyone wanted to ban him from everything. There were a few people who thought it was stupid and indeed, walked out when they instituted a ban on Mike.

The worse problem is, now they are banning me! When I got handed my first place money last Thursday (I have only shot in our Friday night tournament since then), they told me I had to sit out a week or two (can't remember, I was so shocked) because I also won the previous Thursday night. I put Jesse Allred on the loser's side and then he had to beat me twice in the finals, and I won the first game. :grin:

Two Saturdays ago, I won the handicapped big table tournament. I am considered a B+ here (but an A at other tournaments). Mike has to go to 4 games, I go to 3, B players go to 2 and C players only have to win 1. Mike has been beaten by an 8 ball on the snap before.

I also work 40+ hours a week. I have paid my dues. Trust me, there were no women in the poolroom when I started playing. And I would enter every big weekend tournament available in Seattle, many times being the only female in it. In time, I was beating some of the A players.

One time, I knocked off Kris Iverson and Raul and went 9-6 with Soldier Boy who had just won a national title. Who was watching on the sidelines, out of the tournament? Dan Louie, Mike Zimmerman, JD, among others.

This year, our women's regional tour in Seattle had a stop in Salem and we all went to an Open bar tournament after hours. I won out of the 41 players, playing the 2 local favorites in the semi and finals.

Should I be banned? Heck no! First off, I don't play religiously every week anywhere.

Another reason, if you eliminate the top 3 players, then it will just be the next top 3 players that dominate.

Thirdly, I have seen players improving and playing safeties now that would have never dreamed of it 2 years ago. I could count on my hands the players that actually played patterns when we got here, and still have quite a few fingers left over. Almost everyone here has a blue ferrule!

But in the past year, I have seen huge leaps by a few players that 'got it'! It is really rewarding to see. And there are a few that enjoy listening and critiqueing and talking about the game with us.

I taught one gal how to aim a crossover bank and she used it on the 8 ball to win and I heard an excited shout from across the room, "Linda showed me how to make that one!" LOL.

And lastly, most of these are just a race to ONE!!! And a lot of them are on a 7 footer to boot. Come on! Anyone can win it and some games take a surprising turn because of luck. Yes, skill will usually win the game, but it is amazing how many opportunities a lesser player has to win and they refuse to take it!

OTH, I have been out in two a couple times, as has Mike. Not very often here, but it still can happen.

As far as bringing in players and helping out the establishment: At a couple tournaments here, both big tables, and including the one I run on Friday nights, we instituted a break pot and a Bounty. A bounty is placed on the head of whomever won it the week before. So when I won it a couple weeks ago, imagine Eric's delight in beating me and winning a few bucks, after riding his bicycle 15 miles to play! People pay $1 to have a chance at the bounty. It is done on signups BEFORE the draw, for obvious reasons, but it gets people in. I usually update my massive local email list and tell them who the bounty is on and how much the break pot is. If no one wins either one, they roll over to the next week and build.

We used to do a break pot, just like the bounty. Pay $1 at signups to get into the break pot and if one of them made the 8 on the break, then they won the pot. Now, we are selling tickets, 2 for $1 and take time out during the tournament to draw 5 names. Each person drawn has a chance to make the 8. It was up to $58 and someone won last Friday. There was one break pot in Seattle that got to $1600, I heard. No matter what the amount is, it creates excitement for the players, hoping that their number gets drawn.

Calcuttas are probably illegal here, so we don't do them, but it would be a great way to bring in more non-players. I was told it was illegal but should look into it. One guy wasn't even sure pool tournaments were legal. I was told that law enforcement had bigger fish to fry and look the other way. I am armed with the Platis decision if we are ever challenged about it though.

Food and drink specials help too. Our Friday night tournament is held at a place that has a bunch of computer games, so kids can come with their parents and play all night for only $5. They also started a $2.95 value menu with a lot of great items on it. For $3 more, you get a salad or fries and a drink with one refill. So everyone is eating there and they bring their whole families, so they gain more revenue.

Another point to make about serious pool players that don't spend much money on drinking. It is true that they drink mostly soft drinks or coffee, but if you have gambling or lottery machines, they are the ones that go off the most on those.

Also, if you are losing participants, think outside the box. Maybe have loyal players (with a certain amount of weeks in) get to play in a grand weekend event with more added money. We did that for our Friday night tournaments. Every week, we kept out $1 of each entry to set aside for the big event and I tallied the points they got for how they placed and gave extra points just for attendance (the A players did not get these points), for High Woman, for Bounty and for 8 Ball Breaks. The top 32 were invited to play in the Tournament of Champions. First place was IIRC $500+ PLUS a brand new computer with a 19" flat screen monitor. There were door prizes galore and everyone got something. First numbers drawn got to pick theirs first. And there was some heavy trading going on, lol. Mostly for the Cuervo thongs.

And it was handicapped, even though the weekly tournaments were not. That way, everyone had a better chance of winning. Jesse Allred won that one.

Another different idea is to have meat shoots instead of prize money. Room owners that serve food get their meat at a wholesale price anyway. So people that win get a variety of meats or a turkey. Second place might get steaks, and on down to Cornish game hens or hamburger. I know someone that stocked their whole freezer with his meat shoot winnings! A lot of the great players aren't going to play in those tournaments.

Another idea for that is to have a blind draw scotch doubles tournament. They actually did that for the meat shoot, but you could do it for a regular night too. Better players might not advance and weaker players benefit from learning from their better partners' strategies.

OK, this is long, but one more thing... I think instead of banning, a better way is the graduated entry fee system. The better players are penalized but without missing the chance to win.

 

[houmatroy]

Being a past fellow bar owner !

After reflecting back on it after weighing in on the post that said...you had to protect your regulars by not letting the better players play...Most of my regulars back then that liked to drink & play...including myself wasn't the ones complaining bout the better players being allowed to play.they were drinking & having a good time anyway...I think it would be a huge mistake if Scotty Townsend came into town & wanted to play in a lil $100 1st place tournement..anybody that knows Scotty..He'll spend $300 drinking with everyone anyway..lol:lol:


Ps my lil buddy Gary Abood is just like Scotty...they let him play in the local tourney's here in houma & alot of times even if he wins the tourney his bar tab is more than 1st place..lol

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

I guess the market will dictate whether it's a good idea to let "A" players in a weekly tournament. If the rest of the field is OK with it, then the tournament will flourish. If not then the event will die out. Pretty simple really. If the event dies out then it is up to the room owner to decide if he wants to limit the entries to "B" and unders.

One alternative that is used at Hard Times Billiards in Bellflower is they have a weekly "B" and under tournament every Sunday with the exception of one Sunday a month that the event is held as an open tournament. Kind of the best of both worlds.

 

[Pool FemmeBot]

I would tell him "Ken's a lot better than you, and it's because when he was coming up, he sought out better players and went out of his way to play them, instead of whining like a b**** about them."

Then again, I'd be a terrible tournament director.

And if it wasn't obvious, my stance on the OP is that they should be allowed and even encouraged to play, and I personally choose to play in the tournament with the best players over the tournament that I know I can place high in every time.

-Andrew

A-MEN!! You are a wise man, my friend!!
Shoot well and prosper!!

 

[Ky Boy]

I am also married with 3 kids and work 40-50 hrs. a week. I have been playing local tournaments 2 nights a week for a while now. I am in NO WAY an "A" player and am usually playing matches against competition that is of a much higher skill level than myself. Some nights, play well and go far, others get knocked out early.......
The way I see it, it is my choice to enter or not. I could decide to stay home and run drills on my table, or go enter and see how I do against better players. Get your butt kicked by a "ringer" that wins 8 out of 10, I chalk it up as cheap lessons. You don't improve your game by playing bangers or hanging out drinking with your buddies.
Playing better players will make YOU a better player.... JMO

I agree 100% with this post!! Some just want to level the playing field with those who have put MANY YEARS OF TIME AND EFFORT into this game only to be barred by the ones who want the glory without the practice.

Those who would rather sit back and B**CH about the players are usually the same ones who B**CH about everything else from he sharked me to the music is too loud to she bent over and showed me her boobies, yada yada yada!! WHATEVER!!! Keep on complaining and you will never learn from the better players!!

I have had people keep me out of tournaments too many times!! I literally have to show up 3 minutes before tourney time in order to have anyone play in the tournament....I am not that great of a player but I do stand an even chance playing against them. They like pushovers and I am not their dead money!!

Oh well, I play in tourney's I don't have much of a chance in just for the experience and I feel that lesser players should do the same...



Gary

 

[Maniac]

This is what happened at my local bar: The woman who owned the bar used to put on a Friday night 8-ball handicapped tournament (it was a home location for an APA league) with a $5 entry fee. The rules were APA, including the handicap system. If enough people got in the tournament (at least 16) she would add enough money to pay the winner $100 and second place $50 (sometimes third place would get $10 or $20). We had everyone from SL2's to SL7's entering the tournament. Before long it was hard to get 16 players into the tournament as the lower skill levels soon realized that all they were doing were donating. The tournament was slowly dwindling away. I made the suggestion to the bar owner/TD that what she ought to do to keep EVERYBODY interested AND have a chance at some money would be to put the higher skill leveled players in the top bracket and the lower skill leveled players in the bottom bracket. That way, a lower skill level player would AT LEAST have a good chance to get second or third place money. She never would do this and pretty soon the tournament was gone, as was the amount of regulars that frequented her bar on Friday night (they went up the road to another bar tournament) thus costing her money.

My main point is that most local bars with local players are hard-working "blue-collar" types just wanting a good night out of drinking and shooting pool with their PEERS. They more than likely would like to have a fighting chance to win $100 without some hotshot player that rarely ever sets foot in this bar coming in and grabbing the prize in a couple hours of "work". Hell, most of these locals probably don't make $100 a day!!!

There are (in cities of modest to large sizes) many places for the road pros to find a decent tourney (there are usually several every week in the Dallas-Ft. Worth/Waco/Austin/San Antonio area) with better than average players. My opinion is: Why don't they drive to one of these and quit robbing the poor, lowly working stiff.

I don't mind a "cheap" lesson every now and then, but it would get old real fast going 2 and out every tournament.

I agree with a previous poster that this is a good thread and with other posters who stated that there is no simple fix for this problem.

Oh, and by the way, I play in three leagues, practice for 2-3 hours every day, read pool books, watch pool videos/televised matches, have taken lessons, invested lots of money in pool equipment, etc. Don't give me that crap about the whiners being the ones that don't do all the things I listed. I'm not whining, it's just that I want to play in a decent tournament where I have an ample opportunity to advance a round or two. I don't care if I win or not. I just want to justify driving the miles and spending whatever money I spend on entry fees/food/drinks, etc.

Maniac

 

[gunzby]

I can't see why they would bar them. I remember someone in my area wanting a tournament to do something similar. He wanted the pool hall to bar players who won the previous two weeks from playing in it for two weeks. I thought this was ridiculous because this tournament draws anywhere from 70-130 players each week and it is a one day single elimination tournament. Even if you were very good you would still have to make it through a few matches with other good players and the chances of winning two weeks in a row are slim.

I say let them play before they start thinking of being a good player is a punishment.

 

[TX Poolnut]

Down in South Louisiana we have a few places that just flat out bar good pool players from playing..some even have calcutta's...My thoughts have been the same for over 20 years...that the bigger the name the more money in the calcutta plus it's the cheapest way for up & coming players to play better players so they can see how the game can be played & they can use it as a learning experience...I believe that if it's mostly ball bangers or novices that whoever running the tournement could handicap said player to try and make it as equal as can be to all players..But to flat out BAR a player for being too good is just crazy in my eyes...Just asoon go to the bowling alley & pass out flyers saying we are interested in bowlers who would like to play in our pool tournement...Just was curious on everyone elses thoughts on the subject...To bar or not to bar...that is the question..thx...Troy

I think it is punishment for learning how to play well. When I was just starting out, I relished the chances I got to play better players.

That said, I think it comes down to money. The bar owners may be doing what they think is best for their business.

 

[Andrew Henson]

There is another side to the coin, that side is why PLAY if you have ZERO CHANCE of EVER WINNING ANYTHING.

Would you send your 8 years old Kids Little League Baseball Team to
compete even against the A's or Giants in the Bay Area for the experience of loosing?

Breaking up people in brackets where they are bracketed like in an "A", "B", or, "C" Skill level, letting them compete and win again players of there skill level has merit if you want to keep people playing pool.

If you are only looking for Players to contribute to a Prize Fund that Open Play is the way to go, but you will have less long term people competing, and playing pool IMHO.

Other Successful Amateur Sports do survive a Handicapping System, like Golf, Tennis, Softball, etc.

I am a piss poor c- player. I'll donate $10 to play the best players around. Why? I don't need to win to feed my ego. If I knock off someone way above me it makes my night. I might just learn something. I won't be a c- forever but everyone complaining will always be a whiner!

 

[houmatroy]

I think it is punishment for learning how to play well. When I was just starting out, I relished the chances I got to play better players.

That said, I think it comes down to money. The bar owners may be doing what they think is best for their business.

I'd be tickled to death if I had Gary Abood & Scotty Townsend both playing in my local tournement...Just those two's bar tab alone would pay the nut & everything else would be lagniappe as we say it down here in cajunland..translated meaning extra...lol

 

[supergreenman]

Observations of a B+ player

there's a long standing bar tournment in my city that has no problem attracting players.

It's a simple $5 Double Elimination race to 2 on the A and race to 1 or 2 on the B side depending on number.

This tournament attracts open players yet the locals in the bar never fail to show up. They also never complain about the open players.

I see a lot of average and intermediate players show up, it seems to me the only demographic that doesn't show up is the A players.

That's right, the players you'd think that would want to prove themselves by beating open players rarely if ever show up.

This tournament also has a break and run pot as well as a blind Calcutta. There is something for everyone there.

Hell I wish it was Friday so I could go tonight. I've got lucky a few times and cashed in this tournament yet I realize I have to beat higher calibre players if I want to win.

Why doesn't that stop me, yet it stops most players a level above me?

Heck if I know.

 

[TX Poolnut]

I'd be tickled to death if I had Gary Abood & Scotty Townsend both playing in my local tournement...Just those two's bar tab alone would pay the nut & everything else would be lagniappe as we say it down here in cajunland..translated meaning extra...lol

I don't care who you are, that's funny right there. :smile:

 

[RD3P]

IM new here but....

Not playing or quitting because someone is better than you is crybaby Chit...people like that shouldnt even play pool...


for a guy that worked hard on his game to get to whatever level he might be at, and then some crybaby's come along and makes it so he cant play in the local bar tourney???? thats not fair.

what good is the local pool scene when your local tourney's punish you for playing good.

there is no crying in pool.
there are 2 options If your not winning matches,
1)Step your game up a notch...and try too win the next tourney.
2)Be a lame crybaby that nobody likes.

i didnt read the whole thread...im not singling anyone out ...just sharing my thooughts on the matter.

right now im in a league where the same 3 teams fight for first place every year....im on one of those teams....would it be ok for the other teams to get together and vote these top three teams out of the league???? the correct answer is
no its not ok.

if you dont like losing step your game up its that simple.
alot can be learned from a loss, as a kid i grew up getting beat by players better than me(ive had the privledge of learning from some of the very best amatures in the country)....and i would get mad if i felt somone took it easy on me....it made me a better player watching guys runout on me...i learned the right way to play. now i run out thanks to guys showing me how its done.(i wish i had time to practice more so i could do it more consistantly)

someboby mentioned Race to 1 double elim....anybody can win that tourney. doesnt matter how good you are....at least in my experience...Jonny Archer would have a hard time winning that tourney. specially with 50 players or so...

Where do you draw the line at tho for someone who shouldnt be allowed to play?
how high or low do you set the bar?

I know guys that are Pro material (or i should say above "Master player")...that never went pro (or just dont quite have it) so they can play the Big regional ammature tourneys (wich most all are handicapped)...and the organizers know who these guys are. these guys dont even bother with little bar $200 payout tournaments tho....

i dont know, i just dont like Crybaby's ...