Rule About Cueball being Frozen to Object Ball

...There is no double hit. But there can be a push.
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A push is when the tip and ball are in contact an unusually long time. That doesn't happen when you hit a frozen CB/OB with a normal hit unless something blocks the balls, like a nearby rail or second object ball. If nothing blocks them the CB/OB leave the tip simultaneously like a single CB that's twice the size; the tip can't catch up to either of them.

pj
chgo
 
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depends on what rules you're playing.

itsfroze said:
Fast Lenny , If the balls are frozen you can do what ever you want jack-up shoot straight through what ever.
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BCA league rules, say you can shoot a frozen ball with any legal stroke, as long as you don't push or double hit the ball.{ Although, 2 years ago in Vegas, I had a foul called on me for jacking up on a frozen ball shot. I was actually shooting away from the ball to some extent too. The head ref agreed with his call later when I asked.}

VNEA copied from their rules: With a cue ball and object ball frozen, shooting the shot from any angle other than at least 45 degrees above, or at least 45 degrees to the right or at least 45 degrees to the left of center from the straight line of the frozen balls is a foul and must be so called.

From World Standardized rules: When the distance between the cue ball and the object ball is less than the width of a chalk cube, (See Diagram 18) special attention from the referee is required. In such a situation, unless the referee can positively determine a legal shot has been performed, the following guidance may apply: if the cue ball follows through the object ball more than 1/2 ball, it is a foul.

I couldn't find more of a clarification on frozen balls for the World Standardized rules. But I believe APA is just shoot it any way you want to.
 
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Yes

TATE said:
Dave's video here clearly explains the rules and why they exist - this is great stuff. I wish that every pool player watched this until they understood the rules, because I think it's the single most misunderstood rule in pool and definitely can be an issue when it comes up in a pool room.

Just a side-note: when you're playing somebody whether gambling or in a toiurnament and come up to a frozen CB/OB issue, it is best to make sure you're on the same page with the other player about the rule before you take the shot.

Chris
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That video is very informative. But if you're playing in a league, or a tourney, you still need to clarify which rule they are playing. I liked the animated part of that video. It will give the player a little more of a clear picture on what is happening.
 
I always thought it was a push too....

Patrick Johnson said:
A push is when the tip and ball are in contact an unusually long time. That doesn't happen when you hit a frozen CB/OB with a normal hit unless something blocks the balls, like a nearby rail or second object ball. If nothing blocks them the CB/OB leave the tip simultaneously like a single CB that's twice the size; the tip can't catch up to either of them.

pj
chgo
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I had always been taught and thought that it was a push, but I tested it this morning and it is not, it is a single hit instantaneous contact....

Jaden
 
Ball Banger said:
Let me add

The Hand is faster than the eye. Therefore a double kiss is no always seen by the Eye. However with good listening you can hear the double kiss.


BTW This is one of the hardest thing to explain to a Non player in the middle of a game. Therefore it is one foul I will let slide many times rather than have a 1/2 hour discussion.

PS. The Push Shot in the U tube Video is considered a Foul in my area by some people.
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OMG if thats not the truth, trying to explain the "you can hear the foul" is like trying to get POTUS to stop lying to us, or getting the chinese not to act chinese during a fire drill:grin:

Grey Ghost
 
Patrick Johnson said:
A push is when the tip and ball are in contact an unusually long time. That doesn't happen when you hit a frozen CB/OB with a normal hit unless something blocks the balls, like a nearby rail or second object ball. If nothing blocks them the CB/OB leave the tip simultaneously like a single CB that's twice the size; the tip can't catch up to either of them.

pj
chgo
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I think you misread Neil's post. He obvsiously knows what an illegal push shot is. The frozen balls don't stop anyone from illegally pushing.

Fred
 
from what i understand if they are close together but not frozen you can shoot at it any way you want, but it is very easy to foul if you shoot straight on - but there are ways to legally hit the ball.
If they are completely frozen you can shoot at it any way you want but again you can still foul.

It bothers me very much when I see someone jack up on a close ball, and then obviously commit a foul and they almost universally say "It can't be a foul, I jacked up".
Or that people don't know what a good hit looks like when the balls are frozen together.

It's funny how they almost always are wrong when it comes to what's legal on either frozen or close to frozen balls.
 
AZE said:
from what i understand if they are close together but not frozen you can shoot at it any way you want, but it is very easy to foul if you shoot straight on - but there are ways to legally hit the ball.
If they are completely frozen you can shoot at it any way you want but again you can still foul. .
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Exactly. (on all three points).

Fred
 
A push is when the tip and ball are in contact an unusually long time. That doesn't happen when you hit a frozen CB/OB with a normal hit unless something blocks the balls, like a nearby rail or second object ball. If nothing blocks them the CB/OB leave the tip simultaneously like a single CB that's twice the size; the tip can't catch up to either of them.

pj
chgo
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I think you misread Neil's post. He obvsiously knows what an illegal push shot is. The frozen balls don't stop anyone from illegally pushing.

Fred
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I assume Neil knows what a push is, and I agree it's possible to illegally push a frozen CB, but you can't do it "with a normal hit" (that's why I added that phrase); you have to place the tip on the CB and push (or nearly so).

pj
chgo
 
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Jaden said:
I had always been taught and thought that it was a push, but I tested it this morning and it is not, it is a single hit instantaneous contact....

Jaden
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The extra weight of the second ball makes the hit feel abnormal, so it's easy to assume a foul.

pj
chgo
 
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I have an ESPN match on tape with Allen Hopkins talking about this, one of those things where his giving a tip. He said if the balls are froze you need to shoot it with a level stroke and if they have a gap you must jack up or otherwise they are fouls, perhaps I can somehow get it up on Youtube. :cool:
 
7." PUSH SHOT FOULS: It is a foul if the cue ball is pushed by the cue tip, with contact being maintained for more than the momentary time commensurate with a stroked shot. (Such shots are usually referred to as push shots.) With a cue ball and object ball frozen, shooting the shot from any angle other than at least 45 degrees above, or at least 45 degrees to the right or at least 45 degrees to the left of center from the straight line of the frozen balls is a foul and must be so called".

This was taken directly from Valleys (VNEA) rules section at their website.This to me is one of many examples of distorting a rule to over simplify for poorly trained referees and players.This is an effort by VNEA to be more efficient at moving players and there coins Thur their tables.Instead of dumbing down the competition,they should do more things to enhance it. Move'em in head'em out.It's less about the players and more about the promotion.
 
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Neil said:
LIncidentally, with only 1/16 inch seperation between balls, it is very possible to get table length follow with a pefectly legal stroke. (ask Scott Lee how it is done:)) (or give me a p.m.)
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Now this I'd have to see to believe.

(not saying it's not possible....but I'm VERY skeptical)
 
The way we play this situation here in Kansas City is below. If the cue ball is frozen to object ball you can shoot it any way you want. If there is a very small gap you have to shoot away from the object ball to avoid a double hit.

-don
 
Fast Lenny said:
I have an ESPN match on tape with Allen Hopkins talking about this, one of those things where his giving a tip. He said if the balls are froze you need to shoot it with a level stroke and if they have a gap you must jack up or otherwise they are fouls, perhaps I can somehow get it up on Youtube. :cool:
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Yeah I saw that tip of the day, which essentially taught the audience how to "legally" double-hit the cueball by jacking up (I posted about it previously here). Hopkins was simply perpetuating garbage "rules" that are absolute myths. And Hopkins isn't the only world class player who believes the jacking up absolves the double-hit foul.
 
jsp said:
And Hopkins isn't the only world class player who believes the jacking up absolves the double-hit foul.
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Here's a great example. Clearly there is separation between the CB and 9-ball. I personally wouldn't even attempt the shot because it's a sure double-hit. But that didn't stop Rempe, and he proceeded to blatantly double-hit the CB (there is absolutely no question he did so, just look at the CB after impact). And worse yet, the referee didn't call a foul. And doubly and triply worse, neither Gary Matthews nor Danny Diliberto thought it was a foul either.

I still don't understand how professionals (and even the superstars and legends of the game) still have a no clue regarding double-hits.
 
jsp said:
... I still don't understand how professionals (and even the superstars and legends of the game) still have a no clue regarding double-hits.
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There are two problems. The players don't read the rules. This is true at all levels of the game -- just look at some of the trivial rules questions posted here.

The second is that promoters use their own rules. The jacked-up double hit is legal at Derby City, except, of course in the 14.1 competition. This led to a problem last time as the World 14.1 Champion did the jacked-up double hit and was astounded when I called a foul on him. He did not know the rule, or rather the rule that was in force on that particular table.

When I refereed in the 1980 World Straight Pool Championships, the rule on double hits specified by the tournament management (in violation of the official rules at that time) was, "if the referee cannot actually see the tip hit the ball twice, there is no foul." Of course, with the balls only 2mm apart, it's impossible to see whether there are two hits or not with normal eyesight and no high-speed camera.
 
Neil said:
Please review Dr. Daves videos on this. Especially the ones that have the test. He covers in detail how to tell if they are good or bad hits.
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If people want to test their knowledge of pool rules and want to learn ways to detect bad hits, here is the "pool rules quiz" Bob Jewett and I put together:


and here are the answers and instructional segments:


My recent series of articles in BD also present in detail many of the shots from the quiz. See the August through December '09 articles here:


Enjoy,
Dave
 
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