Alleged padding of B&R's in the UPL tourney?? WTF?

[dabarbr]

I can understand how you have formed your opinion about a lot of what you have written.

However, I disagree about "savers" as cheating. I have seen many players save with each other during a tournament, but both of them are still trying to beat each other. It's not cheating.

If I were to name which well-respected Hall of Famers save in tournaments, would you call them cheaters? They're still playing their heart out to win. They save with their opponent for one reason and one reason only. It helps with their tournament expenses if they get knocked out, allowing them to maybe break even in some cases.

If there was money in pool, there would be no need for savers. As an aside, I didn't see any players doing savers on the IPT tour.

I'm with you on this. Savers are not cheating. It's done for the reason that you say, to help with expenses in case you lose that match.

I believe that the only harm they so is to yourself. I have found that my my game falls down a bit because of the saver. For me I seem to let down a bit with my concentration and tend not to play as well as in the previous matches. But no this definitely is not cheating. You only cheat yourself.

If there's truth to this thread then I'm sorry for those that were effected by the cheating..

 

[duker]

scoring matches by last losing player

I played in handicap tournaments where the losing player of a match sits there and score the next match. All is left is for the players is to sign the sheets. There would be a need of people to score the first round because everyone would be most likely be playing the 1st round. Corey and other promoters are trying the best to try to make Pool where , at least the better players can make a real living, just to support their family and lifestyle. Pool is in such a mess where you are one of the best palyers in the world, and have to fight and scrounge for a decent living. Many tournaments you have to finish in the top 5 to survive. There are a lot of expenses in order to play in an event. I have played along side of these players for some time before I had to go on disability for my Migraine headaches. I have been playing in competition since I was 14, now 57, and pool has been good to me. I keep up hopes from time to time for a player to be able to make a living, but things like this just kills anything, and sends Pool backwards again. I applaude Corey for putting his resources out there and trying to make things better for all players, Pro or not.....Duker509

 

[watchez]

If someone 'cheats' me in a money match session, I finish the set, and never play that person again. Liers and cheats always get exposed in the end.

They do?? Some of the biggest liars and cheats in pool are glorified on this board all the time. If they were exposed, it wouldn't happen.

To those that say that such and such a player is so great, they don't need to cheat - tell that to Barry Bonds or Mark McGwire. If you think pool is above that

And JAM, your IPT comment - not to start a huge discussion - but I do remember Billy Incardona buying people out of their checks at an end of a tournament. Although this is not a saver, it is clearly showing that even the IPT money was not enough.

The problem I would have with a saver is if Player A is being staked in a tournament and Player B is not. Player A loses on purpose in this case and then gets his saver money from Player B as well. Do the math.

 

[mikeyfrost]

I figured more people would be mad that this format wasn't 16 games instead of 15 games. If this format is supposed to be based on a game avg. it's unfair to give someone an extra chance at a B&R. Not like they flip in golf and someone adds a stroke. Just saying the bigger these tourneys get, the single points could make a difference.

Cheating is way worse. I don't look at the pro players as beacons of honesty. They're cheaters just like the amateurs. Sure most amateurs are honest but there's a handful that will try to get over. Same deal with the pros. I wouldn't expect less or should I say more in this case. Bottom line is their is a lot of money at stake and they had an easy way to rig it. If not those guys than someone else woulda cheated. Probably 2 guys get burned at the stake while 10 others also padded their score. I'm not shocked by much.

 

[Big Perm]

Kat, thanks for posting up....rep to you....

People, we gotta speak out against this stuff.....pool is a gentelmen's game (women too), a game of honor, and a game with a rich history.....cheating should be taken as a personal offense to anyone who loves the game....if we want it to get the money and attention it deserves, we have to consider cheating as unacceptable......

I'm ashamed every time I see one of these posts....

And for those that excuse or condone this type of behavior, please don't have kids or try to teach anyone anything.....

 

[uwate]

I just got back from Tampa and was there at the Innisbrook resort. The mood there among the pro players was not good. Privately, every player in the event I spoke to detailed to me that there was cheating and it was disgustingly blatant. The main issue being discussed was the 10 break and runs that were marked on the score sheet, six by one party , 4 by another. Up until that point most matches had just a few break and runs per match so this number stood out as statistically improbable.

Two spectators I spoke too watched good parts of that match. One told me that he saw the front end of the match and there was no break and runs a and instead he saw players missing. He went to eat after about a third of match was done. The other said he saw the back end of the match and saw a few break and runs but he also saw players hanging up the 10 and 9s. Nothing is actually proven but in the minds of all the players who were there at the event, there was no question in their minds as to what happened.

Any time you do a round robin format that the scores are listed, you have issues of collusion. I think the format is really interesting and the players and spectators get to see alot of pool. Its a shame you cant do the scoring in the blind until each cut is made, then start the scoring over so its not cumulative.

Kudos to Corey and the Seminoles for putting on a great event though. The tournament room was very nice and the resort they chose to have the event at was outstanding. The diamond barboxes they setup for the amateur event played great and the KF Cues tour had 78 players there on Saturday. Thx again to Tony and Natalie Crosby for running that event.

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

Kat, thanks for posting up....rep to you....

People, we gotta speak out against this stuff.....pool is a gentelmen's game (women too), a game of honor, and a game with a rich history.....cheating should be taken as a personal offense to anyone who loves the game....if we want it to get the money and attention it deserves, we have to consider cheating as unacceptable......

I'm ashamed every time I see one of these posts....

And for those that excuse or condone this type of behavior, please don't have kids or try to teach anyone anything.....

I agree Big Perm. But maybe we're just too idealistic. Maybe we need to "lighten up" or "enlighten up" if we want to maintain sanity here.

One woman pro (or maybe ex-pro) in that UPL chat stated something like "What do you expect? This format begs for this manipulation. This is what you should expect." Ho hum...

Cheating, lying and deceiving has been so perversely wound into the fabric of pool, in so MANY SHADES OF GRAY, that the line - the one that should not be acceptable to cross by anyone - it's been blurred.

So, this is the way it is. Like it, hate it, be immune to it or not, do it yourself, don't do it, whatever. Your place in billiards WILL reflect YOUR level of integrity, even if it may not count for as much as it does in most other walks of life.

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

I just got back from Tampa and was there at the Innisbrook resort. The mood there among the pro players was not good. Privately, every player in the event I spoke to detailed to me that there was cheating and it was disgustingly blatant. The main issue being discussed was the 10 break and runs that were marked on the score sheet, six by one party , 4 by another.

Thanks Uwate for posting that up. We know you ain't no spring chicken to the game inside the game and your opinions here are respected.

FWIW, IMO, this dreadful economy is lowering the already eroded standards of many. It's desperation time for more people now than in decades and decades.

 

[Aaron_S]

I figured more people would be mad that this format wasn't 16 games instead of 15 games. If this format is supposed to be based on a game avg. it's unfair to give someone an extra chance at a B&R.

This was my thought initially, but then I thought that they must have done it that way to make the lag worth something. Not sure what the thinking was there.

Aaron

 

[UrackmIcrackm]

Thanks Uwate for posting that up. We know you ain't no spring chicken to the game inside the game and your opinions here are respected.

FWIW, IMO, this dreadful economy is lowering the already eroded standards of many. It's desperation time for more people now than in decades and decades.

I agree that Uwate knows whats up and personally knows most of the players in the event and sadly, I believe what he says is true.

KK9L, we could be in the middle of the best economical times ever seen and the outcome would've been the same. The part that Josh said about the guys having each other on speed dial is all too true.

I know quite a few guys on the tour that are honest, straight up guys that deplore this activity in general and esp for what it does to the image of the game. At the end of the day, most of them keep quiet because the pool world is so small that if they speak up, they'll suffer the consequences. Invites to tournaments will stop and some tournaments might flat out turn them away.

Ultimately it is a sad situation that needs vast improvement. Turning cheaters into pariahs instead of turning the other cheek is the only way to put a stop to it and move forward.

 

[The Saw]

They do?? Some of the biggest liars and cheats in pool are glorified on this board all the time. If they were exposed, it wouldn't happen.

To those that say that such and such a player is so great, they don't need to cheat - tell that to Barry Bonds or Mark McGwire. If you think pool is above that

Exactly.... They want the truth? They can't handle the truth....

 

[grindz]

I thought the tournament...

and format were great, the TAR stream was fantastic, and all the sponsors should be proud of the turnout, quality of play and how
smoothly it went!

As to the issue at hand, there seem to be a lot of fairly easy fixes,
most of which have been mentioned here in some form or another.
I would like to see some future events like this if/when further
considerations are made to ensure the integrity of the stats.

The age of the computer has really hit pool, and I think will help to
clean up a lot of the seediness..... just look at how the "hustling"
has changed (whether or not you feel this is for the better) with the
internet. If someone is "proven" to cheat in the pro ranks they should
earn a 'scarlet letter', but until it is proven ..slander should be out of
the picture IMO.

I hope there are more formats set up like this one was!!

td

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

where do you fall on the scale?

Exactly.... They want the truth? They can't handle the truth....

I'm trying to "handle" the truth. Apparently it's my turn to play the dirty little shades of gray pool game and see where MY comfort level lies within that scale. I'm sure you've long since handled the truth, as has anyone that's spent enough time in this game.

(No disrespect meant in the least SAW, I know you've been in this game for many moons and you've shared a lot of good things here on AZ.)

 

[Jaden]

What would constitute proof?

and format were great, the TAR stream was fantastic, and all the sponsors should be proud of the turnout, quality of play and how
smoothly it went!

As to the issue at hand, there seem to be a lot of fairly easy fixes,
most of which have been mentioned here in some form or another.
I would like to see some future events like this if/when further
considerations are made to ensure the integrity of the stats.

The age of the computer has really hit pool, and I think will help to
clean up a lot of the seediness..... just look at how the "hustling"
has changed (whether or not you feel this is for the better) with the
internet. If someone is "proven" to cheat in the pro ranks they should
earn a 'scarlet letter', but until it is proven ..slander should be out of
the picture IMO.

I hope there are more formats set up like this one was!!

td

Personally, I'd like to hear from the people who watched the match in question and if they say they didn't see any BNR's or saw fewer than are evident in the score sheets, that would have been enough proof for me.

It starts out with statistically improbable scores, erased and apparently changed.

Then people who were watching the match spoke up and said that they did not witness what the score sheets contained.

Now as far as I personally know, this is hearsay, but if the people who were watching the match could post up what they saw, and the people who saw the scoresheets could post up what they saw, it would go a long way to "proving" what up until this point is merely hearsay.

Jaden

 

[grindz]

Proof is needed, before justice.....

Personally, I'd like to hear from the people who watched the match in question and if they say they didn't see any BNR's or saw fewer than are evident in the score sheets, that would have been enough proof for me.

It starts out with statistically improbable scores, erased and apparently changed.

Then people who were watching the match spoke up and said that they did not witness what the score sheets contained.

Now as far as I personally know, this is hearsay, but if the people who were watching the match could post up what they saw, and the people who saw the scoresheets could post up what they saw, it would go a long way to "proving" what up until this point is merely hearsay.

Jaden

I'd say that "proof" has to at a bare minimum pass a 'reasonableness' test when it effects the reputations of individuals which may be ruined by slanderous claims. That would mean, in my opinion, someone whose integrity is above reproach has kept their own scorecard, has video, or multiple neutral sources have corroborating stories.

The TD should make sure all participants know before an event that ANY cheating caught through any of his/her resources would result in the immediate expulsion from the tournament of the offender, and that it would also be made public knowledge via any portals available, and also to any/all governing associations that are pertinent to the sport.

This needs to be done until the 'grey area' no longer exists where cheating of any form depends on the paradigm of the individuals, or hereafter.

JMNSHO


td

 

[watchez]

View attachment 117140

I'm trying to "handle" the truth. Apparently it's my turn to play the dirty little shades of gray pool game and see where MY comfort level lies within that scale. I'm sure you've long since handled the truth, as has anyone that's spent enough time in this game.

(No disrespect meant in the least SAW, I know you've been in this game for many moons and you've shared a lot of good things here on AZ.)

Not really sure where your post is pointed at. I kinda got lost in it.

People like Saw, me and plenty of others know the truth. Even I still get surprised now and then. You just learn to not gamble with certain people.

It will do no good to list names. Some people still wouldn't believe and no one is ever gonna flat out admit it (well Oldhasbeen did).

 

[SUPERSTAR]

You gotta watch out for that truth.

You start saying something truthful, or something that is a remote possibility, and your gonna have legions of fans and groupies who really have no clue as to what goes on, chime in with their 2 cents and blast you, simply because the player took a picture with their kid and signed an autograph.

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

Not really sure where your post is pointed at. I kinda got lost in it.

People like Saw, me and plenty of others know the truth. Even I still get surprised now and then. You just learn to not gamble with certain people.

It will do no good to list names. Some people still wouldn't believe and no one is ever gonna flat out admit it (well Oldhasbeen did).

Thanks Watchez, I know there's tons of merit behind these words.

What I'm trying to say is, each person decides where they stand - what's acceptable (ie. from sharking, to adding an extra B&R, to steering a "friend" to a monster for a cut from the monster, to being in on a dump, to taking speed during a match, to a gaff bet, to jarring someone, etc., etc.)

There's a big, softly spoken, unwritten playbook in pool. Authors of it don't want to share it, for the pond shrinks. I don't want to play from that playbook. But what happens when I hear someone's got their nose wide open and I can get some of it by just barely stepping into a light shade of gray? What's to stop me from stepping into one darker shade given the next opportunity? People are lured ever deeper...

 

[TWOFORPOOL]

Any time you do a round robin format that the scores are listed, you have issues of collusion. I think the format is really interesting and the players and spectators get to see alot of pool. Its a shame you cant do the scoring in the blind until each cut is made, then start the scoring over so its not cumulative.QUOTE]

I couldn't agree more. Round Robin formats breed collusion. Since half the players know they can't make the finals on th 2nd day they end up not trying has hard to win and give the other players more games. Friends also let their buddies win more so they can get to the finals since they can't.

 

[watchez]

People will always justify it, some how some way. The greatest standard is either the person had it coming or they should have known better.

If something happened at Corey's tournament, that will be the statement made if the player(s) involved ever made one. They will state that with the format, what did Coery expect? And they won't think they were cheating the other players, at most they will think that they cheated the tournament.

And if someone would have spoke out LOUD they would have taken more heat that the person who actually was accused. It is kind of like when some guy that you know dances with your girlfriend. If he gets too friendly and you say something, you can guarantee he will switch it around and you will be made out to be the bad guy.