Scott Frost vs The So Called One Pocket Greats

I've seen daulton in his prime and I don't think he could ever beat frost the way frost plays now. And how is cliff joyner left out?? Lol he was stealing playing anybody except efren years ago. So frost gave ronnie allen 10-5 and beat him easy.... how do you lose that much of your game? You don't! Every player like buddy, sigel, varner etc. Those guys didn't lose that much of their game... get it?? Wait let me guess... the players from the 60's were the only ones to lose tons of speed?? Lmao ya right.
 
donny mills said:
I've seen daulton in his prime and I don't think he could ever beat frost the way frost plays now. And how is cliff joyner left out?? Lol he was stealing playing anybody except efren years ago. So frost gave ronnie allen 10-5 and beat him easy.... how do you lose that much of your game? You don't! Every player like buddy, sigel, varner etc. Those guys didn't lose that much of their game... get it?? Wait let me guess... the players from the 60's were the only ones to lose tons of speed?? Lmao ya right.
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I agree. I used to be in a pool hall with a lot of seniors that talked about how good they used to play and you know what? They STILL played great. They would complain and say stuff like "20 years ago I would have cut this" then still go ahead and cut the ball in and shake their heads cause it nipped the rail. Efren is getting old and obviously has lost a step, HOWEVER he is still world class.

I think most of it involves fitness and life. If you keep yourself in shape and get lucky and don't have many problems and maintain your eye sight you can play really good for a really long time. Jimmy Faircloth, if anyone knows him, is a great example of a life long shortstop who CLAIMS he lost some of his game but you can't tell too much watching him play.
 
donny mills said:
I've seen daulton in his prime and I don't think he could ever beat frost the way frost plays now. And how is cliff joyner left out?? Lol he was stealing playing anybody except efren years ago. So frost gave ronnie allen 10-5 and beat him easy.... how do you lose that much of your game? You don't! Every player like buddy, sigel, varner etc. Those guys didn't lose that much of their game... get it?? Wait let me guess... the players from the 60's were the only ones to lose tons of speed?? Lmao ya right.
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Bout 10-12 years ago, I watched Joyner play Jimmy Reid even and break even after 10 hours of play. There weren't that many 8 and outs either. Joyner, to me, is still the best I have seen of the current era players besides Efren. Multiple times I have watched him shoot a ball down the rail that wouldn't go cause blocked and titty hook his opponent in the side pocket. Just sick.

I agree, it is hard to fathom that a player lost that much speed off his play.
 
donny mills said:
how do you lose that much of your game? You don't! Every player like buddy, sigel, varner etc. Those guys didn't lose that much of their game... get it?? Wait let me guess... the players from the 60's were the only ones to lose tons of speed?? Lmao ya right.
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I have seen players lose a ton of their game in far shorter periods of time then we are talking about. There are various reasons for it, sometimes people quit playing altogether, some people have health issues, some people simply lose the fire and simply stop caring.

And a person who quits totally, and then comes in and plays in a single event without having played serious pool in years, seriously what do you expect? Buddy Hall played as much as his health would allow, he never quit. Sigel lost a ton of his game since his prime, I have watched enough video of him from the 1980's and saw enough of his IPT playing to see that, yeah he still plays great, but he played ALOT better, ask Efren. Varner lost a heap of his game in his hiatus and is still getting back to his former speed.

Honestly, how much of their game do you think they need to lose to change things? How much worse is Chris Bartram shot for shot against Wu or Yang? A guy at Wu or Yang's level can drop to a Chris Bartram level, and suddenly they are not in the same league as Orcullo, but they obviously were. They would still seem to play great, but Donny, you seem to think that is the level they were always at, you are wrong, they lost a level or two and those levels are the difference between a Bartram and a SVB.
 
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Celtic said:
I have seen players lose a ton of their game in far shorter periods of time then we are talking about. There are various reasons for it, sometimes people quit playing altogether, some people have health issues, some people simply lose the fire and simply stop caring.

And a person who quits totally, and then comes in and plays in a single event without having played serious pool in years, seriously what do you expect? Buddy Hall played as much as his health would allow, he never quit. Sigel lost a ton of his game since his prime, I have watched enough video of him from the 1980's and saw enough of his IPT playing to see that, yeah he still plays great, but he played ALOT better, ask Efren. Varner lost a heap of his game in his hiatus and is still getting back to his former speed.

Honestly, how much of their game do you think they need to lose to change things? How much worse is Chris Bartram shot for shot against Wu or Yang? A guy at Wu or Yang's level can drop to a Chris Bartram level, and suddenly they are not in the same league as Orcullo, but they obviously were. They would still seem to play great, but Donny, you seem to think that is the level they were always at, you are wrong, they lost a level or two and those levels are the difference between a Bartram and a SVB.
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Back in 95 or 96 cliff joyner came through clearwater and gave bubba 16-7 or something like that, and then cliff gave eric baker 10-6. I watched most of it and to this day I've never seen anyone play like that, even the old guys that watched said they have never seen anything like that either, and some of them saw the old time one pocket players also. I don't think thats the level they were always at. It's just common sense.
 
donny mills said:
Back in 95 or 96 cliff joyner came through clearwater and gave bubba 16-7 or something like that, and then cliff gave eric baker 10-6. I watched most of it and to this day I've never seen anyone play like that.
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So Cliff back then was better then Scott is now since you have never seen anyone play like that?

And now today Scott is better then Cliff?

So Cliff then must have.....work it out...... thats right, lost alot of that game he had back then.

See, you have seen people lose alot of speed too Donny.

Glad we cleared that up.
 
The fact of the matter is that some people's games hold up longer than others. Probably how well they take care of themselves has a lot to do with it. Guys like Irving Crane, Jimmy Caras and Joe Balsis still played great into their late 50's to early 60's. Onofrio Lauri won a 9-Ball tourney against a major league field at age 69!

And then there are stories about guys like Michael Coltrain, who lost his game at 30. And Jon Kucharo who went from the top to a shortstop in two or three years (also in his 20's). Look what happened to Cliff in the last few years. He went from being a great player to just an average One Pocket player. No more 16-7 games for him!

Sigel did slip a lot after he retired. He was the best on the planet in his heyday and returned to the game a very run of the mill player. Ronnie is one who, when he started going downhill, faded fast. By the early 90's (in his early 50's) he had lost two or three balls off his best game. And it just got worse for him as time went on.

Ray Martin held onto his game well into his 60's and I know Donny is familiar with him. But even Ray at 60 is not near the player he was at 40. Kim Davenport has made a remarkable recovery from a career ending injury. He isn't the player he once was, but still awful good. Hopkins is another player who still can cut it against anyone. And Nick made a great recovery in his life and his game as well. So there is no yardstick to measure who will hold up in the long run and who won't.

A couple more - Diliberto still played excellent pool at age 60 and Buddy, despite his size, was winning tournaments in his late 50's.
 
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I heard DiLiberto say today's 14.1 players are better. He played against the old timers so that is an opinion I respect, but while I respect his opinion I don't necessarily agree.

I would say today's players could hold their own against the old timers but would not dominate. Put today's players in a hot pool room with no air conditioning in a suit and tie on slow cloth and with an old time cue (sorry guys, no laminated shafts) and let's see how they perform.

Put the old timers in today's vastly improved conditions and equipment and watch how tough they play.

The Filipinos play in conditions similar to what the old timers had, that's why they all have those big strokes to move the cue ball around the table. When they come over here and get in a well lit, climate controlled room with simonis cloth how do they do?

That's my opinion, and as usual I'm probably completely wrong but I feel better when I pretend to know something about pool
 
tap tap tap..

jay helfert said:
The fact of the matter is that some people's games hold up longer than others. Probably how well they take care of themselves has a lot to do with it. Guys like Irving Crane, Jimmy Caras and Joe Balsis still played great into their late 50's to early 60's. Onofrio Lauri won a 9-Ball tourney against a major league field at age 69!

And then there are stories about guys like Michael Coltrain, who lost his game at 30. And Jon Kucharo who went from the top to a shortstop in two or three years (also in his 20's). Look what happened to Cliff in the last few years. He went from being a great player to just an average One Pocket player. No more 16-7 games for him!

Sigel did slip a lot after he retired. He was the best on the planet in his heyday and returned to the game a very run of the mill player. Ronnie is one who, when he started going downhill, faded fast. By the early 90's (in his early 50's) he had lost two or three balls off his best game. And it just got worse for him as time went on.

Ray Martin held onto his game well into his 60's and I know Donny is familiar with him. But even Ray at 60 is not near the player he was at 40. Kim Davenport has made a remarkable recovery from a career ending injury. He isn't the player he once was, but still awful good. Hopkins is another player who still can cut it against anyone. And Nick made a great recovery in his life and his game as well. So there is no yardstick to measure who will hold up in the long run and who won't.

A couple more - Diliberto still played excellent pool at age 60 and Buddy, despite his size, was winning tournaments in his late 50's.
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The more that I know..... the more that I know that I Don't know. Some of us it seems, feel that we know more than anyone else.... and when one's in that position, it may be difficult to be able to weigh anyone's position as having more merit than our own. It's too bad because with the wealth of knowledge out there, just waiting to be shared, much will just die out with the past (and a lot has).

Why always look to reinvent the wheel? I don't get it.

I guess some are just such good salesmen that they sell themselves on a green Gremlin, with bald tires convinced that it's the next Rolls.

I do know one thing.... that every little excess in life comes at a price, and when the collector comes calling there's no running away. At 51 I'm a little older, but wiser... and still a whippersnapper at heart. :wink:

td
 
donny mills said:
Well part of this proves at least a little something. Earlier in this someone said that jeremy jones is better at one pocket than frost... jones gave bartram 9-7 and hated every second of it. Yes sir very clueless I am.
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I might buy a TAR match if Donnie and JJ played a set of each, play until someone gets two sets ahead.
 
Celtic said:
So Cliff back then was better then Scott is now since you have never seen anyone play like that?

And now today Scott is better then Cliff?

So Cliff then must have.....work it out...... thats right, lost alot of that game he had back then.

See, you have seen people lose alot of speed too Donny.

Glad we cleared that up.
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No no its not that cliff played better than everyone then, its that the way he played that night. But I can admit that maybe it seemed more impressive to me becuase I had only been playing for a year or 2. Cliff is different, he has a shoulder problem that changed everything.
 
alstl said:
I heard DiLiberto say today's 14.1 players are better. He played against the old timers so that is an opinion I respect, but while I respect his opinion I don't necessarily agree.

I would say today's players could hold their own against the old timers but would not dominate. Put today's players in a hot pool room with no air conditioning in a suit and tie on slow cloth and with an old time cue (sorry guys, no laminated shafts) and let's see how they perform.

Put the old timers in today's vastly improved conditions and equipment and watch how tough they play.

The Filipinos play in conditions similar to what the old timers had, that's why they all have those big strokes to move the cue ball around the table. When they come over here and get in a well lit, climate controlled room with simonis cloth how do they do?

That's my opinion, and as usual I'm probably completely wrong but I feel better when I pretend to know something about pool
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Wasnt straight pool different back then? They pretty much played with 4 pockets on one end of the table due to the slow cloth I think.
 
I'm a little surprised at some of Donny Mill's remarks regarding player deteriation. He is in his prime, and playing great pool, and I salute him for that.
He is just very naive regarding what happens to your game as you age.
As others have pointed out...some guys age in different ways, whether it be from lifestyle, health problems, vision, or just milage on the frame.

RA is 5 yrs younger than me, chronologically, but he is a good 10 years older in his health and outlook on life. Heart and desire can only get you so far, you have to have the nerves and the ability.

I pretty much quit hi $$$ pool a few years ago, but was still fairly competetive into my early 70's. Ronnie is still out there trying to scuffle, it's all he has, and he hates to give it up... but I think he knows his game is gone, and it ain't coming back. He has a better shot at the horses, than he does at finding a pool game he can win at.

I hope for your sake Donny, you are able to compete as long as you want to. But trust me, some day you will wonder where it all went.... it is inevitable.
 
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SJDinPHX said:
I'm a little surprised at some of Donny Mill's remarks regarding player deteriation. He is in his prime, and playing great pool, and I salute him for that.
He is just very naive regarding what happens to your game as you age.
As others have pointed out...some guys age in different ways, whether it be from lifestyle, health problems, vision, or just milage on the frame.

RA is 5 yrs younger than me, chronologically, but he is a good 10 years older in his health and outlook on life.

I pretty much quit hi $$$ pool and a few years ago, but was still fairly competetive into my early 70's. Ronnie is still out there trying to scuffle, but I think he knows his game is gone, and it ain't coming back. He has a better shot at the horses, than he does at finding a pool game he can win at.

I hope for your sake Donny, you are able to compete as long as you want to.
But trust me, some day you will wonder where it all went. it is inevitable.
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I don't think and I hope I'm not in my prime. I think I can become alot better at little nit shots that are easy to execute, I'm already good at the harder shots. Also rolling the ball soft I think I could become better at.

I'm not that naive. I've talked to a lot of people that have been around the greats of yesteryear. Kentucky jim was around alot of those guys. If you look up on you tube that daytona tournament with earl as a young kid you can see kentucky jim with all of them. Jimmy zhender or something like that is his name.
 
I would have liked to have seen John Fitzpatrick and Frost play
one pocket.Eddie Taylor once said that Rags was the best
one pocket player he had ever seen play.Of course,Rags died
late 40's or early 50's,but that would have been a great match
to see.
 
that match scott would hopefully have enjoyed the price for the education. im of the beief that the old time greats because of playing each other and playing on tougher equipment and playing all q ball games would beat scot even oif the firepower edge would be his.
in many sports each generation is better than the next . bigger stronger better traing and nutrition etc. in pool size or strength is not the determining factor.so eddy taylor would still do well today.
a prior post mentioned god given ability and determination in practice is whats makes champions.
put the greatest in any time era let them adjust to the new "game " and the cream comes to the top.
scott may have the potential to be among the best but in my very humble opinion hes not there yet . he hasnt been challenged enough where he wont get the opportunity to go 8 and out enough to pull the trigger at will.
only time will tell his place in history.
 
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