Scott Frost vs The So Called One Pocket Greats

[wincardona]

I didn't change my mind, what I was trying to convey is the difficulty in making a comparison with so many intangibles that are relevant to make an intellegent decision.

Lets take a horse race for example, one horse ( Ed Kelley) runs regularly in the mud and is considered a good mudder but also can run on the fast track, where another horse (Scott Frost )never runs in the mud but has excellent times on the fast track. Now if you would take Frost and match him up against Kelley on a muddy surface, that wouldn't be a fair contest, would it?:sorry: But then again if you were to put them both on the fast track it would be more interesting, wouldn't it? We know Kelley can run well on the fast track, but Frost doesn't have a track record on the mud. Who would you bet on in the mud? and why.

I also said that it stands to reason that todays players are as good or better than players in past generations. Reason being that todays players are more informed, and there are more players playing seriously around the world. Information is more readily available in todays pool nation compared to past generations when you had to usually experience things in order to learn.

But that doesn't necessarily hold true playing games that are not popular around the world, like one pocket. One pocket has only been popular for about the last 10 or so years, so when you sell the older more experienced players short you're making a mistake.

The game of one pocket has evolved into more of a shooting game today, and the modern day one pocket players are behind in knowledge but it's ok because they compensate with their ability to perform. I know this from first hand experience, because I played several top players under wet conditions and they didn't like it. But on a dry table where they could do their thing I didn't like it.:frown:

 

[jay helfert]

I also said that it stands to reason that todays players are as good or better than players in past generations. Reason being that todays players are more informed, and there are more players playing seriously around the world. Information is more readily available in todays pool nation compared to past generations when you had to usually experience things in order to learn.

But that doesn't necessarily hold true playing games that are not popular around the world, like one pocket. One pocket has only been popular for about the last 10 or so years, so when you sell the older more experienced players short you're making a mistake.

The game of one pocket has evolved into more of a shooting game today, and the modern day one pocket players are behind in knowledge but it's ok because they compensate with their ability to perform. I know this from first hand experience, because I played several top players under wet conditions and they didn't like it. But on a dry table where they could do their thing I didn't like it.:frown:

Once again an excellent post by a man who knows of what he speaks. By the way Billy, I saw you play in Galveston. You are not the same player who was robbing everyone twenty years ago. Like so many others, your game has slipped dramatically. But I haven't forgotten how you played in your prime. You ran out pretty good yourself, at 9-Ball and One Hole. :grin:

And furthermore, if today's Scott had found you in the 80's, he couldn't have given you a ball, let alone 10-7 or 11-7. JMHO

 

[Celtic]

Lol i put "draw balls etc" etc also means fire a ball down the rail on tighter pockets, force follow long distance, jacked up long shots. If you didn't understand what I meant and how those shots add up after a while, then you might be lacking some understanding of the game.

Its more due to a lack of clarity in your post.

I've seen mosconis stroke and their is no way he could draw balls etc like svb.

I will grant that you might have meant that, but the brevity that you used will lead people to a different understanding of what your point actually was.

But, I will say again, if we are going on draw shots "ect" aka the entire shooting package, making those key shots. Earl 15 years ago was doing it better then anyone today. The guy ran a bloody 11 pack for what he thought would be 1 million dollars, that is high offense under an insane amount of pressure. Noone has reached his level of a powerful stroke and accuracy that he had. And the other guy in this video, he does not suck either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4XlfiAa-lo

That said, Mika has nowhere near the powerful stroke that SVB has, and yet he has been a heck of alot more successful on the tournament trail of late. Dennie Orcullo has nowhere near the power of SVB in moving the ball, but he plays far more accurate cueball placement and angles then SVB. Those power shots are only part of a very big package of required skill sets. Mosconi could draw the ball, could be power stroke it like Earl? Probably not, but he was probably a more accurate potter because he was not playing those huge stroke shots and he probably played alot better angle based shape then anyone on the planet given the particular game he dominated.

Moving the ball is not the only thing, you know that better then anyone Donny. You know full well you don't shoot as well as SVB yet you have a chance to beat him in a race to 100 in 9-ball rack your own because SVB's powerful stroke is NOT the only factor in play. You are the perfect example of how different skill sets in pool come into play and give guys a chance to win.

 

[Celtic]

Pool is not about strength Donny. It is a game of touch and feel, and mental discipline. But you already know that.

Nah, it is all strength. I think Donny as saying he wants to bet on Charlie Bryant vs Alex Pagulayan. Charlie is way stronger, this should be easy. I am a sucker though, I will take Alex, what are we betting Donny?

 

[watchez]

I didn't change my mind, what I was trying to convey is the difficulty in making a comparison with so many intangibles that are relevant to make an intellegent decision.

Lets take a horse race for example, one horse ( Ed Kelley) runs regularly in the mud and is considered a good mudder but also can run on the fast track, where another horse (Scott Frost )never runs in the mud but has excellent times on the fast track. Now if you would take Frost and match him up against Kelley on a muddy surface, that wouldn't be a fair contest, would it?:sorry: But then again if you were to put them both on the fast track it would be more interesting, wouldn't it? We know Kelley can run well on the fast track, but Frost doesn't have a track record on the mud. Who would you bet on in the mud? and why.

Would that be a fast track with tight corners, say a 1/2 mile to 3/4 mile oval and a mud track with big sweeping turns, say Belmont? Or do the corners not matter?

 

[Celtic]

There is no one that has ever breathed fresh air that could chip or putt with tiger woods not even close..Tiger hits a chip about every round where the announcers say he cant get it inside 10 feet and he gets it 3...When the heat is on he would have made Jack Nicklaus cry like a girl ...Jack would have kept saying in his tears how does he do it how does he make every putt when he has too...........

I am not going to give Jack up that easy, especially with the new equippment he would be playing with to even things up. But Tiger IS that good, he is a bloody monster in every sense of the word and Jack would certainly have his hands full. Jack IS going to win a few encounters, just like Tiger is not going to win every single match play match against people in the Ryder Cup, but after 100 match play matches between Tiger and Jack I think I would sadly be taking Tiger.

Jack had a more natural putting and chipping game then Tiger, he does it with more feel alot like what Daly once did (this guy could have been a contender in this debate if he could have controlled his game and his life). But Tiger is basically the guy who does it technically and textbook perfect. Jack would not embarass himself, but I am not betting he would come out on top.

 

[iba7467]

None of you guys know when you're getting hustled. I will say this, the old time hustlers were better then the current crop.

I like you Jay, but I believe you are underrating the current hustlers as well. I'll catch you at the Derby.

Explanation: I only mean that the knowledge base is totally different. If the hustlers of yesteryear were here in stroke today they would be winning no more than anyone today. The internet and cell phone killed the road-hardened pool hustler and backer not heart.

I guarantee you if it wasn't for the internet today I would never have to work again after taking the show on the road. Things change.

To Jay: I would like a friendly bet with you on the outcome of all the matches of the Fatboy Challenge. This should be a nice newschool vs oldschool handicapping competition.

 

[Celtic]

I like you Jay, but I believe you are underrating the current hustlers as well. I'll catch you at the Derby.

I honestly don't see alot of true hustlers anymore, only nits getting out moved on the matching up by even bigger nits.

I will forgive most of them because the internet and media has destroyed the ability for anyone to stay under the radar, but the true hustler today is a rare bloody thing, and if he exists we have not mentioned him on this thread.

 

[iba7467]

And if the younger players are getting better, guess what I am pretty sure that even today in a goofy ball drawing contest that you seem to think means something that Earl will outstroke SVB in a test of who can outdraw the other.

We've got action. If you will be at DCC we can bet on this.

 

[Celtic]

We've got action. If you will be at DCC we can bet on this.

I won't be at the DCC, US bar Box Championships most likely, but I am doubting Earl would be there.

Perhaps in Vegas during the BCA this year, both players "should" be there, but then they would need to actually want to be the guinea pigs for this... might be tough.

 

[iba7467]

I won't be at the DCC, US bar Box Championships most likely, but I am doubting Earl would be there.

Perhaps in Vegas during the BCA this year, both players "should" be there, but then they would need to actually want to be the guinea pigs for this... might be tough.

I believe both guys wouldn't mind giving it a go since they are both very competitive. I feel quite certain they wouldn't mind shooting a few balls into the rail for a reasonable tip.

 

[wincardona]

Would that be a fast track with tight corners, say a 1/2 mile to 3/4 mile oval and a mud track with big sweeping turns, say Belmont? Or do the corners not matter?

That would depend on the jockey, I would suspect that an older more experienced jockey would handle the sharp turns best. What do you think?

 

[Celtic]

I believe both guys wouldn't mind giving it a go since they are both very competitive. I feel quite certain they wouldn't mind shooting a few balls into the rail for a reasonable tip.

OK, if you are at the BCA in Vegas in May we can look into it. Maybe get it on TAR during a break in between matches. I cannot imagine this would only get me and you betting, this would be a heck of a interest to alot of people and I think there would be alot of people betting on it both ways.

 

[Celtic]

That would depend on the jockey, I would suspect that an older more experienced jockey would handle the sharp turns best. What do you think?

I can answer for them.

The older jockey would lose, jockeys today are way better then the jockeys of the past.

 

[wincardona]

I can answer for them.

The older jockey would lose, jockeys today are way better then the jockeys of the past.

How about Norman Howard The Jockey?

 

[Celtic]

How about Norman Howard The Jockey?

A "jockey" of today would beat him in a horse race, even if Norman was driving a car. At least if it were snowing.

 

[pfduser]

OK, if you are at the BCA in Vegas in May we can look into it. Maybe get it on TAR during a break in between matches. I cannot imagine this would only get me and you betting, this would be a heck of a interest to alot of people and I think there would be alot of people betting on it both ways.

I wont be able able to make the Derby this time,but if TAR doesn't stream
it I hope somebody does!I would love to see this!

 

[watchez]

I have posted this before and won large at such a contest one year in Olathe of drawing your ball. Larry Nevel vs Jon Kucharo on a 5 x 10 snooker table. The outcome, and it was mulitple challenges between these two, was a joke.

 

[Celtic]

I have posted this before and won large at such a contest one year in Olathe of drawing your ball. Larry Nevel vs Jon Kucharo on a 5 x 10 snooker table. The outcome, and it was mulitple challenges between these two, was a joke.

OK, I gotta know, I would bet my entire roll on Nevel.

Would I have been eating steak at Delmonio or foot long heart attacks on a bun at Slot of Fun?

 

[punter]

There is no one that has ever breathed fresh air that could chip or putt with tiger woods not even close..Tiger hits a chip about every round where the announcers say he cant get it inside 10 feet and he gets it 3...When the heat is on he would have made Jack Nicklaus cry like a girl ...Jack would have kept saying in his tears how does he do it how does he make every putt when he has too...........

Nicklaus stayed at the top for 20 years. He routinely made clutch putts to win championships. And he battled guys like Palmer, Player, Watson, Trevino. Michelson is equal or better chipper/putter than Tiger. If Tiger had been born in Nicklaus' day, Jack would have dominated him too, just like all the others.