Trudeau: Beating a dead horse.

[corvette1340]

Pool Players would embrace Don Mackey again if he advertised $500,000 tournaments.

I don't blame the players for following Trudeau. Get it while the gettins' good I say. However, nobody that did a little research can say they were surprised when KT screwed everyone. A leopard can't change his spots.

I hope he takes it in the rear once for every person he has screwed over in his entire lifetime.

 

[pulzcul]

It was all a gamble from the very beginning. Most everyone knew who he was and those that didn't couldn't possibly have missed the warnings from those that did. But players and businesses alike saw an opportunity to get some cash and jumped on the wagon. I know that I for one held out hopes that it would succeed despite Kevin's nefarious past. But in reality I think everyone knew it was doomed and played it for what it was worth. A simple capitalistic venture with calculated risks. Gambling. I mean really, if another 'wagon' comes along we are all gonna jump on that one to. Its our nature.

 

[CreeDo]

Well yes, I have. My brother and I owned and moderated a completely civil political forum for three or four years, I forget how long now. It took a lot of moderating and the people that wanted to be jackasses to each other hated it. At one point the members and owners of two other forums launched an all out gay porn and hacking attack on my forum because they couldn't stand the idea of a decent forum. There was also a bounty for any hacker that could get into my computer and get my personal information, threats on my life, attempts to put me out of business. All because I maintained a civil forum.

lol, I don't wanna say I'm calling BS on this one, but my eyebrow is raised Spock-style. I find it hard to believe a concerted effort was made to kill a site just because it was 'too civil'. Doesn't make sense. A civil site isn't making any waves and is getting largely ignored by those not involved.

I'm guessing you made waves by banning the trolls. No idea if they had it coming or not (you seem reasonable so I'm gonna guess yes). There must have been some drama on it to provoke such a drastic response, even if the drama was simply muzzling the wrong a-hole. Again, not criticizing that or saying their reaction is justified. But you strike me as too smart to say "I got attacked repeatedly because my forum was too civil". What really happened? If it's sidetracking this thread too much maybe PM it. Sounds interesting.

I avoid politics forums and npr threads because staying civil is a ton of work

 

[ShootingArts]

exactly what I said

lol, I don't wanna say I'm calling BS on this one, but my eyebrow is raised Spock-style. I find it hard to believe a concerted effort was made to kill a site just because it was 'too civil'. Doesn't make sense. A civil site isn't making any waves and is getting largely ignored by those not involved.

I'm guessing you made waves by banning the trolls. No idea if they had it coming or not (you seem reasonable so I'm gonna guess yes). There must have been some drama on it to provoke such a drastic response, even if the drama was simply muzzling the wrong a-hole. Again, not criticizing that or saying their reaction is justified. But you strike me as too smart to say "I got attacked repeatedly because my forum was too civil". What really happened? If it's sidetracking this thread too much maybe PM it. Sounds interesting.

I avoid politics forums and npr threads because staying civil is a ton of work

I agree that the attacks didn't make sense but how much sense does it make when a gang on the street attacks somebody just because they can?

We had a ROE and enforced it. Friends, people we didn't like, the owners of another forum I moderated, all got the same treatment on my site. All of the posters on my site respected that we treated everyone the same. Fine to disagree with anyone's position on any subject, no flaming, no name calling. It wasn't OK to say somebody was dumb but not OK to call them a SOB and some fuzzy gray line in between.

No idea how the attackers found my site, either somebody posted both places or a search turned it up. Either way they found a tightly moderated political site and decided that it wasn't to be tolerated, "our infringement on the posters right to free speech". In reality they were just a bunch of trouble making hackers looking for trouble. None of the attackers posted at my site prior to the first attack so it wasn't retaliation for something I did to one of them. They were looking for an easy target to bully and thought they had found one. Foolish of them because I have found many a site just like their playpens and left them alone. When I was attacked repeatedly I defended myself, legally, civilly, and effectively.

There has to be a line somewhere if there is to be any discussion at all. It can be no moderation and then there can be no intelligent discussion. It can be very tightly moderated and everyone knows exactly what the rules are. The last option is that you can try to allow some back and forth without it getting too rough. Now you have a gray ever shifting fuzzy line. That is the one thing I dislike about AZB. Different forums here have different levels of what is acceptable to say and the line is a moving target depending on the poster and the mood of the moderator reading the post. Impossible for it not to be that way when there aren't any firm guidelines actually enforced consistently across the board. We have lost some valuable pool posters either because of their posts in NPR or because they didn't realize that something that was OK in the action room wasn't OK on the main forum. This is much less likely to happen if there is a hard guideline strictly enforced.

The moderators do a good job here and there is no question in my mind that I got the benefit of a judgment call sometimes but their jobs would be a lot easier if they didn't have to judge a large portion of the posts they get notified about. With hard guidelines a post either fits the guideline or it doesn't. Without hard guidelines the moderators usually go back and read the whole thread, maybe multiple threads to decide what they need to do. A lot of work. We read each post individually on my forum and it was either within the guidelines or not, end of story.

Hu

 

[CreeDo]

Hu - I think I like hard guidelines too, though they have to be fairly mild. Really i never saw anyone turned away from a forum because two other people were arguing. Generally that just means popcorn time. It's when an attack goes directly at them that they get offended and leave. Sometimes they come right back.

I guess I'm also a fan of case-by-case decisions. If someone provokes and I respond then it would make sense the responder gets a less harsh sentence.

The mods here seem to do a pretty good job, though I keep out of npr where all the ugly comes out.

 

[ShootingArts]

check out a few dozen threads

Hu - I think I like hard guidelines too, though they have to be fairly mild. Really i never saw anyone turned away from a forum because two other people were arguing. Generally that just means popcorn time. It's when an attack goes directly at them that they get offended and leave. Sometimes they come right back.

I guess I'm also a fan of case-by-case decisions. If someone provokes and I respond then it would make sense the responder gets a less harsh sentence.
The mods here seem to do a pretty good job, though I keep out of npr where all the ugly comes out.

Case by case decisions means knowing the history of both parties. That case by case decision becomes a nightmare with a few thousand users. What is more, inevitably when you make case by case decisions you ruled one way one time and a different way another time. Even if the two decisions are a year apart some poster will remember it and drag it up as proof you are biased and unfair.

Over and over we have good technical threads going here. Then two people get personal and start posting AT each other 90 miles an hour. The discussion dies when the argument starts and it is rare that the thread ever gets back to the discussion. Anytime you want to kill a discussion just call anyone in the discussion a pin headed varmint. If you want to maximize discussion you have to minimize personal attacks. If you just want traffic, arguments and popcorn works just fine. Most sponsors don't dig that crap though so forget a commercially viable forum.

There is a middle ground but it means a lot of organization and a lot of moderators. AZB reads some threads and posts and for the rest of the forum threads and posts if nobody reports it, it didn't happen. A newcomer comes on here and sees two people blazing away at each other, open flames and name calling. If that is how things are done here, he does the same when he posts. The moderators see his posts and land on him like the hounds of hell.

He is wondering what happened and why what is fine for other people isn't fine for him. Feeling singled out and persecuted he fires at the mod, often asking what happened but being a little less than polite because he doesn't understand why the site doesn't have the same level of moderation all through it. BAM, down comes the ban hammer and we never know if we lost a potentially great poster or a troll passing through.

It is a lot of work and little pleasure being a moderator. Without them a forum can't exist as more than a garbage bin though. How to moderate becomes the next issue and when a site becomes large there simply isn't any great answer. The best answer I found was a very hard black line. Shades of gray suck in my totally immodest opinion.

Hu

 

[CreeDo]

Hrm, you make it sound like so much work, maybe I'd have to try it to see. As an example of the case-by-case situation I'm thinking of... let's say two guys are railing at each other in the elbow dropping thread and one of them is joeya or fatboy or jay, I'm gonna account for the fact that they're normally evenheaded guys and longtime members.

If I feel like more investigation is called for, I go to the first page of the thread, scan for the first post by either of them, and then glance at each following post by those two. Shouldn't take THAT long I'd think to see who's baiting whom. The guy who starts it gets the harsher sentence, and having a generally good reputation (not the green squares kind) will also factor into the punishment.

I dunno, the strict one-rule-fits-all-situations sounds great and very fair on paper, but I'd rather keep the lifers happy, they're the guys who make the forum. The nice thing about being a mod is if someone doesn't like your decision you can cheerfully tell them to kiss your ass. It's not a democracy. I think I've seen mr. wilson make that point on occasion.

 

[3RAILKICK]

Franchise building/for resale???

It was all a gamble from the very beginning. Most everyone knew who he was and those that didn't couldn't possibly have missed the warnings from those that did. But players and businesses alike saw an opportunity to get some cash and jumped on the wagon. I know that I for one held out hopes that it would succeed despite Kevin's nefarious past. But in reality I think everyone knew it was doomed and played it for what it was worth. A simple capitalistic venture with calculated risks. Gambling. I mean really, if another 'wagon' comes along we are all gonna jump on that one to. Its our nature.

I apologize for not reading all posts in this thread. That said-I did search the thread for the question I pose.

Somewhere I read that KT may have put this grand (ad)-venture together with a future transaction in mind. Along the lines of selling the tour to a gambling group from the far East. Singapore? Macaou?(sp)?

But some international internet gambling prohibition took place that queered the potential deal. So a big investment in a saleable franchise went bust-when the back end sale fell apart. Any body hear this or was I smoking the wrong brand?

In hindsight-although it became 'slow pay'-it was better than no pay for most participants. A good idea that just didn't get there. Even if it was for the sole purpose of building a brand to re-sell.

I have no clue. Just repeating something I either heard, or dreamed up.

3railkick
or maybe its 4

 

[JohnnyP]

No, the Macao thing was just a blind.

 

[ShootingArts]

kept them happy

Hrm, you make it sound like so much work, maybe I'd have to try it to see. As an example of the case-by-case situation I'm thinking of... let's say two guys are railing at each other in the elbow dropping thread and one of them is joeya or fatboy or jay, I'm gonna account for the fact that they're normally evenheaded guys and longtime members.

If I feel like more investigation is called for, I go to the first page of the thread, scan for the first post by either of them, and then glance at each following post by those two. Shouldn't take THAT long I'd think to see who's baiting whom. The guy who starts it gets the harsher sentence, and having a generally good reputation (not the green squares kind) will also factor into the punishment.

I dunno, the strict one-rule-fits-all-situations sounds great and very fair on paper, but I'd rather keep the lifers happy, they're the guys who make the forum. The nice thing about being a mod is if someone doesn't like your decision you can cheerfully tell them to kiss your ass. It's not a democracy. I think I've seen mr. wilson make that point on occasion.

I kept my longer term members happy because they knew where they stood. I rarely actually banned anyone. Only those that deliberately ignored all rules were banned and they had plenty of warning. I edited posts(deleted sections) and marked the edited areas when I had time. When I had less time I deleted posts, sections of threads, or entire threads whichever was most practical. I made it plain in the ROE that this was simply a time management issue and total deletions were the standard procedure, any lesser editing was a courtesy.

One thing we did that worked well was that I posted in threads as hu and my brother as mike. We were just like other members, no better, no worse. Admin was a separate account just to run the forum that we both used. Admin never got into any discussions at all. However Admin was like EF Hutten, when he spoke everybody listened. As it happened Admin deleted a lot more posts that I agreed with than posts I didn't agree with. He was a one way SOB and didn't negotiate anything. A post met the ROE or it didn't, end of story. Didn't matter if the overall post content was excellent or garbage, it had to meet the ROE. After folks learned that we didn't favor some posts over others depending on where our sympathies were moderating our forum was much easier.

Fire up a pure political forum and talk Mike into linking to it. Then get ready for many a late night baby sitting it when you have threads teetering on the edge of trouble! Been there, done that, others can have that joy now. Let me know when you do it though, I'll happily help you grow some gray hair and bald spots!

Hu

 

[3RAILKICK]

Wachamean?

No, the Macao thing was just a blind.

Johnny-I don't follow. I don't doubt that I'm wrong-I just don't understand the 'blind' reference.

Thanks for any explanation.

3railkick

 

[CreeDo]

blind - something intended to misrepresent the true nature of an activity

I guess what he means is the excuse that he couldn't pay out due to a change in regulations (and promises of eventually selling the tour) were BS, some feel that KT just realized he poured a ton of money into something that wasn't gonna pay off. So he ran off and made up an excuse rather than pay up.

Hu: I'd cheerfully mod a forum like this... but not politics. Lately politics in general (both the practitioners and those who discuss the subject) seems filled with blind hatred and senseless bludgeoning. It'd be like trying to convince monkeys at the zoo to stop flinging poo at each other, and you're behind this thick soundproof plexiglass barrier.

 

[ShootingArts]

you have me chuckling

blind - something intended to misrepresent the true nature of an activity

I guess what he means is the excuse that he couldn't pay out due to a change in regulations (and promises of eventually selling the tour) were BS, some feel that KT just realized he poured a ton of money into something that wasn't gonna pay off. So he ran off and made up an excuse rather than pay up.

Hu: I'd cheerfully mod a forum like this... but not politics. Lately politics in general (both the practitioners and those who discuss the subject) seems filled with blind hatred and senseless bludgeoning. It'd be like trying to convince monkeys at the zoo to stop flinging poo at each other, and you're behind this thick soundproof plexiglass barrier.

Yeah, there is a lot of difference between moderating the main forum here and the NPR forum not that the main forum doesn't cause enough headaches sometimes. I'm on a small private forum with a dozen or so friends and even there somebody manages to pee in the Cheerios sometimes. No doubt it will shock you to know that sometimes that somebody is me.

You are right about how "blind" was used of course.

Hu

 

[vagabond]

Friday, February 26, 2010

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Browse > Home / Featured / Kevin’s Radio Network Kevin’s Radio Network
November 16, 2009 by JP
Filed under Featured
6 Comments


Kevin’s show is sweeping the nation! Secrets to wealth, uncovering government corruption, and natural healing methods are topics that appeal to everyone. Could your local radio station be the next to jump on the bandwagon?

Location Station Air Dates Air Times (local)
Auburn, NY WAUB – 1590 AM Sunday 1PM – 4PM
Canton, OH **NEW** WCER – 900 AM Saturday 4PM – 6PM
Chicago, IL WJJG – 1530 AM Tuesday & Wednesday 1PM – 4PM
Cleveland, OH **NEW** WELW – 1330 AM Saturday 5PM
Emporium, PA WLEM – 1250 AM Saturday & Sunday 5PM-6PM
Geneva, NY WGVA – 1240 AM Sunday 1PM – 4PM
Hopewell, VA WHAP – 1340 AM Saturday 6PM-9PM
Inland Empire, CA KMET – 1490 AM Saturday 11AM – 2PM
Jackson, MS WPBQ – 1240 AM Saturday 8AM – 11AM
Kalispell, MT KGEZ – 600 AM Saturday 2PM – 5PM
Litchfield, MN KLFD – 1410 AM Saturday 1PM – 4PM
Loma Linda, CA KCAA – 1050 AM Sunday 1PM – 4PM
Melbourne, FL WMEL – 1300 AM Saturday 2PM – 5PM
Monteray, CA KRXA – 540 AM Sunday 1PM – 4PM
Olean, NY WOEN – 1360 AM Saturday 11AM – 2PM
Phoenix, AZ KFNX – 1100 AM Saturday 9PM – 12AM
Pottsville, PA **NEW** WPPA – 1360 AM Saturday 1PM
Providence, RI WCNX – 1180 AM Sunday 10AM – 1PM
Roanoke, VA WWWR – 910 AM Saturday / Sunday 6AM – 8 AM / 6PM – 9PM
San Saba, TX KNVR – 1410 AM Saturday 1PM – 3PM
Seattle, WA KKNW – 1150 AM Saturday 9PM – 12AM
Teaneck, NJ WVNJ – 1160 AM Sunday 9AM – 12PM
Woonsocket, RI WNRI – 1380 AM Saturday 10PM – 12AM

 

[juegabillar]

That's fine and dandy, but what about all the people that shelled out money to play in the qualifiers, only to get ripped off?

Are they all but forgotten?

So sick of people cherry picking what they want to glorify, and simply ignoring the cold truth that is ugly.

I know guys that to this day, never recovered the money they shelled out to play in qualifiers, and we are talking about several thousands of dollars.

How many people got ripped off by the qualification system that went absolutely no where when the tour fell apart? Hhhhmmmmm?

Why don't you gather them all up and tell THEM about the good KT tried to do for the pool community.

Some people just don't get it.

Superstar, you have a point here. Rep to you for the comment.

Kevin is not suffering one bit, nor did he really give a F*&ck about the players, it was all an illusion to make people believe he was God's gift for Pool. I really don't give a you know what about Kevin. I know his stunt in jail will be a breeze, specially with all the money the MF has made with everyone around the world. F*&ck Kevin Trudeau.

 

[smokey]

JoeyA... kt & tim white...

for me...

kt is an example of what is despicable in human nature. while i don't condone bashing per se, in his case, as with another piece of human garbage, tim white, i say "go for it"!

sri, but we can agree to not agree on this one [only!].

all the best,
smokey

 

[madfox]

Nevermind that he deceives the sick and elderly, charges them multiple times for the same product, pays just enough prize money to avoid legal action, and generally defrauds the unsuspecting whenever and wherever possible to make the almighty dollar. Oh and he does all this while hiding behind a corporation's face and name to almost completely eliminate all personal legal/financial responsibility.

Yeah he's GREAT for pool. Real stand-up model citizen.

Maybe you missed all the posts back in 2006/2007 about how he got out of any/every full prize payment. He's an all-around bad person with the worst of intentions. Anybody that believes otherwise is deceiving themselves.

Tap, Tap, Tap !
He just tried to make a lot of noise, screw a lot of people and sell quick. He almost did to an Asian company, but the law given in the USA at that time about internet betting killed the deal.

 

[ironman]

Tap, Tap, Tap !
He just tried to make a lot of noise, screw a lot of people and sell quick. He almost did to an Asian company, but the law given in the USA at that time about internet betting killed the deal.

I hardly think he was close to seeling the guy.

"What is IPT""!!!