boys v. girls

[allen_jr]

Even more interesting, let's say they play 10 ahead. Who has the better nerves? I've seen her do that more than once (not against archer, but against very strong players)
The point is, gender has little to do with the outcome. The reason gender is even an issue is because the total number of male top level players far outnumbers their female counterparts.

I think Jasmine will give any male a run for his money. Same for quite a few women. They are in a minority, but they are just as capable of winning a match as anybody.

Archer is better than a "very strong player"... I don't think too many players of Archer's caliber are going to avoid a 10-ahead match against any woman player... Bartram already put the offer up for a 15 ahead match against any woman... I don't think he's gonna get too many takers.

Gender is not an issue simply because there are more men playing. I don't know the cause, and I am not going to get into this debate with possible reasons. It's just reality, right now.

 

[CreeDo]

Ihe idea that it's a numbers game is another common argument...

One yard stick for general pool skill is straight pool high run. We have two ladies who have cracked 150... in the entire world, ever, in all of history. And often 14.1 runs are measured in exhibitions and practice (not many tournaments go past 150) so even if a person feels women are less competitive than men, it seems like a 14.1 high run would not be affected by that.

To me that seems to point to something other than the numbers routine. If the ratio of 100+ ball runners for males to females is 50:1 or worse, that seems to point to something else... because the number of female to male players isn't that bad, is it?

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Ihe idea that it's a numbers game is another common argument...

One yard stick for general pool skill is straight pool high run. We have two ladies who have cracked 150... in the entire world, ever, in all of history. And often 14.1 runs are measured in exhibitions and practice (not many tournaments go past 150) so even if a person feels women are less competitive than men, it seems like a 14.1 high run would not be affected by that.

To me that seems to point to something other than the numbers routine. If the ratio of 100+ ball runners for males to females is 50:1 or worse, that seems to point to something else... because the number of female to male players isn't that bad, is it?

I think it is. When I've walked into any pool hall ever since I've been around, (and that's an awful long time) it's a guy-fest. Women are virtually non-existent.

 

[skiergirl55]

As a woman pool addict reading this drivel, I bow down to male superiority in all things Sport. :bow-down:

 

[poolplayer2093]

As a woman pool addict reading this drivel, I bow down to male superiority in all things Sport. :bow-down:

most women just don't have the same killer instinct that you'll find in most men.

most of the women i see in the pool hall (the few that i see that is) usually seem to be smiling and having fun but most of the men i see look almost angry because they're trying so hard to win.

 

[searcyD]

it not meant to be

as if its not annoying enough that the site is lagging, i wrote an entire page of my opinion on this topic about the difference, and accidentally zoomed out the page somehow....then zoomed back to a blank page...that was all that's left of my half an hour thesis....and the image of JA in one of my girlfriends outfits is pretty vivid.

realistically, most women can't string 4-5s. and that's what it will take. then, if she get's lucky enough not to draw a guy that can string racks and beat him, she'll have to face someone that can. that's just what will happen in a men's major.

howevaa, ga young came to hardtimes and took a tourney down full of pros and short-stops. i think its the 1st sunday tourneys. if not she must've sand bagged and robbed us c and d players during one of the regular sundays. jerk. nah she wouldn't do that...i'm just going to think she plays good...and *****-slapped some of the pros and short-stops....and got a little lucky.....nah, she plays good....prolly drew a bunch of suckers the first 5 rounds or so.

 

[CreeDo]

searcy, not sure what you're using to write on for a browser, but in the past I've had that happen... write a giant thing and then accidentally lose it (like you try to post but the page lagged or the internet died or something).

One trick that allowed me to get it back: Click quick reply (if that's what you were using before... otherwise go back to the "make new reply" page) and press ctrl+Z ...also known as Edit --> Undo.

You may need to do it twice. But on the second try, with firefox, everything you wrote comes back.

If you're on a cell phone, no idea if you can do that.

Another trick I automatically do on all posts now: ctrl+A, ctrl+C. Do that right after you're done typing. It copies everything you wrote into memory. Then if your post fails, just go back like you wanted to reply again and press ctrl+V (aka edit --> paste) to put it back.

DPP: you may be right. When I go into a pool hall, it's cocktoberfest, but it's like 5-1 or 10-1 at worst. But if we're counting people who consider themselves pool players, and aren't just there socially? Very few females would identify themselves as pool players. More like "yeah, I like to play it sometimes". That ratio might be more like 50:1.

I still think though that if Jasmin is trying as hard as a female can, and seems to have all the gifts and the right training... she should be able to crack 200 balls. She has the record in competition I think I remember reading, 80-something? ...maybe even among pro females, the number who actually TRY for a record-breaking straight pool run is low. Or maybe getting a high run in straight pool IS a testosterone driven competitive thing. Maybe a female would mentally lose focus when she realizes she's past the women's record and still 300+ balls away from the men's record.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

That wasn't the question. I already said Archer would be favored to win more than Kelly. But in one match, either is capable of winning.

Well, ok, sure either could win in any given single match. But what does that prove? Why would that matter? It doesn't show that they are equals. Would Johnny win because he is a man? No, he would win because he is a better player. One match does not really mean anything except a happy feeling for the winner for that day, and a boast they can make in the future. Nice things for sure, but doesn't really affect the topic of this thread: are men inherently better than women?

more interesting, let's say they play 10 ahead. Who has the better nerves? I've seen her do that more than once (not against archer, but against very strong players)

Once again, I think you could easily answer your own question here. Put up a poll on AZ to see who people would pick in this match.

point is, gender has little to do with the outcome. The reason gender is even an issue is because the total number of male top level players far outnumbers their female counterparts.

Well, I'm sorry to say but I disagree. I think this is flawed logic. I agree that Archer wins not because he is a man, but because he is better. However, I think that the best men are better than the best women not because there are more men. This actually means nothing if you think it through. Lets take the top 20 men and the top 20 women. Now when looking only at this group of 40 players, there are an equal # of men and women. Which group represents the stronger bunch? Now we will take the top 100, top 1000, etc. Point is, no matter how large a group you pick, the men are likely to be the stronger group of players. I would love to say this wasn't the case, but unfortunately facts are facts. I'm not sure if you read my earlier post about the specific reasons why greater physical strength could be an advantage, all other things being equal. Ask Jasmine what she thinks about this. I've heard her say that the men play at a higher level, they seem to have more focus and determination, more razor sharp accuracy and consistency, nerves that waver less, etc. She views competing successfully with the men as a higher accomplishment than with the women. And why shouldn't she?

think Jasmine will give any male a run for his money. Same for quite a few women. They are in a minority, but they are just as capable of winning a match as anybody.

Jasmine is a fine player. She has a great all around game, a killer break, and knows a good amount. However, she has thusfar not won any tournaments she entered that were open to males. Granted she did amazingly well in the 14.1 tourney, but as I said previously that is not 9 ball (or 10 or 8), in which raw firepower, stroke, and breaks mean a LOT more. (All the things that can be done more accurately when you are stronger physically, since you don't have to try as hard.) *CAN* she beat top male pros? Sure, of course. Does she play as well overall over time as the top men? No she doesn't.

The "numbers" argument is basically a way to avoid the uncomfortable truth that men are simply endowed with a physical advantage in most competitive games. This is partly due to physical strength, but also to the "wiring" of the brain (as others have suggested), and the "kill or be killed" response that seems to still linger in the male psyche. Bottom line: at this point you have absolutely no data to make any sort of claim that women play just as well as men. When that data becomes available, I will certainly be very interested and eager to revise my position. If I missed some date out there that you can bring to light, by all means please do.

Thanks for your posts,

KMRUNOUT

Steve[/QUOTE]

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Ihe idea that it's a numbers game is another common argument...

One yard stick for general pool skill is straight pool high run. We have two ladies who have cracked 150... in the entire world, ever, in all of history. And often 14.1 runs are measured in exhibitions and practice (not many tournaments go past 150) so even if a person feels women are less competitive than men, it seems like a 14.1 high run would not be affected by that.

To me that seems to point to something other than the numbers routine. If the ratio of 100+ ball runners for males to females is 50:1 or worse, that seems to point to something else... because the number of female to male players isn't that bad, is it?

Very well said, and 100 times shorter than I would have said it. I can't imagine a person who believes he (or she) is logical would argue with this.

KMRUNOUT

 

[berlowmj2]

reflections

That is nonsense. I've watched a certain WPBA player destroy some of the local top dogs for the cash.

As to the original point, the odds of a female winning an open event are low, only because the numbers favor the men.

If you were to take Kelly against Johnny in a race to 9, the odds get much closer. Add 6 women in a field of 58 men, and obviously, I would bet that a male is probably going to take the tournament. That's just simple math.

Since a far lower proportion of women seriously play the game, then it is likely that a higher proportion of serious women players excel.

As more women are entering traditional "male roles" it is likely that more women will also play pool seriously.

If playing better players is good for one's game, then mixed competition would raise the skill level of women.



As for "killer instinct" check out the records of Soviet women snipers in WWII, of the role of Jewish women in the Warsaw ghetto, of the deployment of female
assassins in the CIA, in the Massad, increasing numbers of female "suicide bombers"...

 

[skiergirl55]

most women just don't have the same killer instinct that you'll find in most men.

most of the women i see in the pool hall (the few that i see that is) usually seem to be smiling and having fun but most of the men i see look almost angry because they're trying so hard to win.

Just because I'm having fun, smiling and looking hot while shooting....... doesn't mean I don't want your balls on the table when I'm done playing. While you're staring at my ass, I'll be whipping yours.:grin-devilish:

I'm too new to this to boast like this seriously, but I will not always be this way. I will improve. Watch out.

 

[iwilleatyou]

I heard Buddy chime in on this

I was in Park Ave Billiards in Jacksonville like 6-7 years ago, when Allison and Karen were at the top of their games and Buddy said NO WAY. He taked about Jean and said these girls are no where near her. He did give props to Jean as a true champion.

 

[Robroy]

You must've drank from the fountain of youth because this will never happen. Women can't fade the pressure. The top women in the world can't beat local male pros for the cash let alone the best players on the planet. Are we watching the same pool?

The way I see it...show me the money...and the Women will come.

There is not enough money in our sport for it to draw more women NUMBERS.
It will take trainers that costs money, but talent is not a problem or an issue. Its all about money.
As for pressure, women LOVE the pressure and love beating the men...everyone knows the underdog can free-wheel.
I loved playing men way more than the women, I loved playing stronger players. My game got stronger, for sure its money. And one more thing now that I think about it....time. Time is an issue too.

 

[skiergirl55]

The way I see it...show me the money...and the Women will come.

There is not enough money in our sport for it to draw more women NUMBERS.
It will take trainers that costs money, but talent is not a problem or an issue. Its all about money.
As for pressure, women LOVE the pressure and love beating the men...everyone knows the underdog can free-wheel.
I loved playing men way more than the women, I loved playing stronger players. My game got stronger, for sure its money. And one more thing now that I think about it....time. Time is an issue too.

You go, girl! :thumbup2:

When I was on a bowling league, it was fun and I had a fair average (163), but I didn't have the desire to get better. I just went bowling and had fun once a week.

Pool is not like that for me. I have a very strong desire to hone this into something special. I have goals and I set them very high. I see Lincoln City in my future. That's pretty lofty for an old woman just starting out. But if you're gonna dream, dream big, work hard toward that dream.

I don't have any women to play against (where are they?), so I play men almost exclusively. There is nothing more satisfying for me than when I can drop the last ball and say those two little words I love so well......"Rack 'em". It's happening a lot more often and for this new player, it's what feeds my monster.

I think I have an innate talent for this (some guys play for years and just don't 'get it'). I have lots of time to devote to learning this fantastic game. I'm realizing the need to be trained at this point with lessons on a regular basis. I haven't worked that out yet, but it's necessary to keep improving without a lot of bad habits.

I'm addicted....I dream it. I get quarters in change and I think 'Pool game' and pocket them. My favorite pool song is Roll It from Eric Clapton's Backless cd and I changed the words to fit the game ('roll it.....in the pocket'), and I crank it when I'm going to play and I hear Marcy Levy's voice in my head while I play. I wake up every day wanting to rush through the things I can't avoid just so I can go play. I'd rather do nothing else with my free time. I had a lot of hobbies....now there's only one.

Before the end of the year, I'm buying a house with a pool room (I'll find the perfect house), I'll win that Brunswick table or buy one, and I can't wait to get up and play in my pj's every day. Drills at home, competition at night.

I don't have the luxury of picking out gender differences when I'm playing. I don't get a pass, I don't get preferential treatment.......each game is played to win. It's just one shooter against another, with me as the lesser skilled 99% of the time. I have to work hard to earn a win. I love every single minute of it.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

The way I see it...show me the money...and the Women will come.

There is not enough money in our sport for it to draw more women NUMBERS.
It will take trainers that costs money, but talent is not a problem or an issue. Its all about money.

Robin, I get what you're saying but doesn't the money thing apply to men too? I mean if there was more money in pool sure it would attract more women but it would also attract more men. I'm not sure the money thing would change the dynamics as far as the ratio of men to women players.

 

[12310bch]

Just because I'm having fun, smiling and looking hot while shooting....... doesn't mean I don't want your balls on the table when I'm done playing. While you're staring at my ass, I'll be wiping yours.:grin-devilish:

I'm too new to this to boast like this seriously, but I will not always be this way. I will improve. Watch out.

Skiergirl, please edit your post to say,"whipping your ass." The way you put it does not seem to be a desirable goal.

 

[ChazL]

You beat me to it...

Skiergirl, please edit your post to say,"whipping your ass." The way you put it does not seem to be a desirable goal.

which is a probably a good thing, as your response was phrased very tactfully.:lol::lol::lol:

 

[ulikastr8pool]

The way I see it...show me the money...and the Women will come.

There is not enough money in our sport for it to draw more women NUMBERS.

So, I guess women are more driven by money than the men. That's a good one. Money is the reason why the top ladies can get the 7,8,9 from many of the top men for the cash, and not like it at all. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Blackball75]

When I go into a pool hall, it's cocktoberfest

Cocktoberfest!! Hahaha!! I did laugh when I read that

But it's true what you say. I very seldom see women playing competitive pool or practising alone in pool halls or bars. Normally they are just girlfriends accompanying their boyfriends and distracting my attention while I'm trying to play. When they do play I suspect it is in most cases because their bf wants them to, and they are not really all that interested.

I don't think I've ever seen two women - alone - playing against each other in a hall or bar, or indeed, a lone woman practising by herself.

Not saying it doesn't happen though

But I welcome more women coming into pool and I think we have to try to find ways to make it more attractive to them.

Pool is one competitive discipline where women - since physical strength is not a factor - are able to compete on a level playing field with men. Chess is another, and more and more women are getting very good at that. But I think it will be some time before we see a female world chess champion. We're much more likely to have a female President before that.

Are any world-class poker players female?

 

[pooltchr]

I spend about 5 hours in a pool room on Thursday with one of my students, and observed a lady (a quite attractive lady, I might add) a couple of table over doing drills. She was there alone, and worked for about an hour. She didn't have her husband/boyfriend there, wasn't checking out the other people in the room. She was doing drills. Not playing pool...doing drills.

If she isn't already kicking a lot of guys butts, the day is coming!

Steve