A friendly discussion about A-joints

[ratcues]

I've been thinking lately and that may scare a few of you but how much importance do you place in your A-joint construction style. Here's why I ask....

-It is a common belief that full splice cues "hit" better than short spliced cues, ie; A-jointed.

-Many have posted here that the A-joint is only a mechanical bond.

-I carefully read and watched a thread about how different makers join their A-joints and there were vast differences in technique and reason.

-I have seen the insides of many of the "great hitting" cues and most defy common beliefs, ie; big metal joining pins, off center, etc.

-I had a customer buy one of my cues, play with it, not like it, and give it to his wife who loves it. That doesn't bother me since I cannot make a cue that pleases everyone but the same guy took my personal playing cue, played a weekend tournament with it and says it is the best cue he's ever hit with.

There were differences between the two cues. Both had A-joints but the mechanical bond was different as were the types of woods used. One also had points. Weight, shaft, balance points were very similar.

Could it have been the A-joint that separated the "hits" of these two cues or could it have been the difference between a maple and ebony forearm?

 

[qbilder]

I'm not so sure the "A" joint matters at all beyond the point of joining the handle to the forearm with no loose buzzing. If you get a good lock there, I think it's as good as it can be in terms of playability. Regardless if it's a solid 29" core, a typical 5/8" or 3/4" tenoned joint, wood threads, or just a flat faced joint with stud, I think the "lock" is the critical requirement. By "lock", I mean joining two pieces to create a singular solidified piece. I have experimented with everything my brain could imagine, and had plenty of hopes for some of my more abstract ideas, but still everything always came down to the "lock". No matter how I did it, if I got the cue solid then it played good. If I didn't, it wouldn't play so good and it most generally made noise.

I have grown to place the highest importance on balance. Not only balancing the weight of the cue to be comfortable, but also balancing the use of materials to work well together. There's a certain tone of "ping" that I listen for while i'm putting a cue together by tapping it against my palm. If it's too high pitch I make adjustments. If it's too low I adjust it. I keep this tone as tightly as I keep my centerline. It's that important to me. I tune it & adjust all the way through the build to the point of which I install the ferrules. What this does for me is allows my cues to all play very consistently from one cue to the next, regardless of materials, weight, diameter, cored, not cored, etc. and all play the way I feel a cue plays best.

Everything affects tonal characteristics. Every piece of wood has it's own unique tone & it changes a little as the wood changes dimensions. Brass has different tone than aluminum. Phenolic has different tone than ivory. It goes on & on. Everything matters to me. There's much more to building great playing cues than how you join the handle to forearm. It's only one consideration of what should be hundreds of consideration, IMO.

I know that all prolly sounds crazy & a bit too far out of the box, but it's things I have learned through the mix of failures & sucesses. It is what it is & i'm sure there's a lot more to learn.

 

[dave sutton]

I think I've used every type of a-joint possible. I've finally settled on .750 high and wide into the forearm with a 1/2" buzz ring. In my experiences successes and failures os how I learned just about everything. I have ha some great advice but ultimately I learned from getting my hands dirty and studying other makers techniques.

For the record I think there is a huge difference in feel between full splice and short splice cues. Night and day

 

[Graciocues]

I put high importance on the A-joint.

What were the differences in the A-joint of the two cues you mention. Did you use the same joint material?

I check the tone of the woods before I start a cue and use a core when the woods don't have the tone I want.

 

[ratcues]

For the record I think there is a huge difference in feel between full splice and short splice cues. Night and day

I agree that there is a huge difference. I want to know how important a role the type of A-joint construction plays in the playability of a cue.

If there is a huge difference between full and short splice, then can there also be a difference between the actual construction technique of the A-joint? So, would it make a difference if I used a 1/2-20, 7/16-14, 3/8-16, 3/8-10? There are others but these are some of the most common pins I see. Would it matter the length of any of those particular pins thus increasing the mass of the joint? Would a pin of the same length and thread type play differently if one was brass, one of steel, and one of aluminum?

 

[ratcues]

What were the differences in the A-joint of the two cues you mention. Did you use the same joint material?

One had a bigger heavier pin at the A-joint. One was brass and the other was steel but difference size and threads.

The butt/shaft joints were the same, both phenolic with 5/16-14, piloted.

 

[dave sutton]

You know. The mind plays tricks. I don't think you can ever create two cues the exact same with different ajoints. Every cue goes together different. Sometimes we make magic mostly we do what we can to just have a good consistancy. Like u said my mind plays tricks. So I think I can feel the diff. I've tried .625 into foreArm and into handle. I've tried .750 into forearm and into handle. Both ways again. I've met in the middle of phenolic .350 each way. To me .750 high an wide feels the best. Is it my mind playing tricks or what. That's the question.

 

[Graciocues]

One had a bigger heavier pin at the A-joint. One was brass and the other was steel but difference size and threads.

The butt/shaft joints were the same, both phenolic with 5/16-14, piloted.

Give us more details. Which cue has IYO the best tone and what A-joint did it have? If one cue had a Purpleheart forearm and the other had Amboyna that could make a big difference.

I noticed a difference when I took the metal out of my A-joint.

 

[hangemhigh]

I'm not so sure the "A" joint matters at all beyond the point of joining the handle to the forearm with no loose buzzing. If you get a good lock there, I think it's as good as it can be in terms of playability. Regardless if it's a solid 29" core, a typical 5/8" or 3/4" tenoned joint, wood threads, or just a flat faced joint with stud, I think the "lock" is the critical requirement. By "lock", I mean joining two pieces to create a singular solidified piece. I have experimented with everything my brain could imagine, and had plenty of hopes for some of my more abstract ideas, but still everything always came down to the "lock". No matter how I did it, if I got the cue solid then it played good. If I didn't, it wouldn't play so good and it most generally made noise.

I have grown to place the highest importance on balance. Not only balancing the weight of the cue to be comfortable, but also balancing the use of materials to work well together. There's a certain tone of "ping" that I listen for while i'm putting a cue together by tapping it against my palm. If it's too high pitch I make adjustments. If it's too low I adjust it. I keep this tone as tightly as I keep my centerline. It's that important to me. I tune it & adjust all the way through the build to the point of which I install the ferrules. What this does for me is allows my cues to all play very consistently from one cue to the next, regardless of materials, weight, diameter, cored, not cored, etc. and all play the way I feel a cue plays best.

Everything affects tonal characteristics. Every piece of wood has it's own unique tone & it changes a little as the wood changes dimensions. Brass has different tone than aluminum. Phenolic has different tone than ivory. It goes on & on. Everything matters to me. There's much more to building great playing cues than how you join the handle to forearm. It's only one consideration of what should be hundreds of consideration, IMO.

I know that all prolly sounds crazy & a bit too far out of the box, but it's things I have learned through the mix of failures & sucesses. It is what it is & i'm sure there's a lot more to learn.

It doesn't sound crazy to me, it sounds familiar. I know two former cue makers that did just what you describe, and more. Their cues exhibited exceptional playability because of their meticulous efforts. No stone should be left unturned, and you should always strive for perfection, even though you know it is elusive at best.

 

[ratcues]

OK, I'll give a hypothetical. Three cues, all the same except the A-joint pin.

-one has a 3/8-10, brass
-one has a 7/16-14, brass
-one had a 1/2-20, brass

Obviously, there is a difference in mass, so let's also assume the balance point is the same, but how much will each affect the the "hit" of the cue, if any?

 

[BLACKHEARTCUES]

I'm in the camp that thinks the "A" joint is just to permanently hold the handle to the forearm. On heavier woods I use a 5/8", 4-6" Maple core at the "A" joint & where the shaft joins the forearm. On cues with V-bottom points the tenon (5/8 dia x 1' long), goes from the forearn into the handle. For cues with flat bottom point or no points I use a tenon of the same size, but go from the handle into the forearm. For the sake of weight, I use stainless steel or aluminum joining screws...JER

 

[JoeyInCali]

sky is blue

 

[manwon]

OK, I'll give a hypothetical. Three cues, all the same except the A-joint pin.

-one has a 3/8-10, brass
-one has a 7/16-14, brass
-one had a 1/2-20, brass

Obviously, there is a difference in mass, so let's also assume the balance point is the same, but how much will each affect the the "hit" of the cue, if any?

Any of the thread sizes are fine in my books, I personally do not think that the hit of the cue will be effected using any of the screws you listed one way or the other so long as the A-Joint is properly constructed.

In my opinion many many factor's influence a cues hit, including the A-joint any one of which could make a cue have a unfavorable hit, even with that said what is considered a good hit by one person may be bad to another.

JIMO

 

[qbilder]

OK, I'll give a hypothetical. Three cues, all the same except the A-joint pin.

-one has a 3/8-10, brass
-one has a 7/16-14, brass
-one had a 1/2-20, brass

Obviously, there is a difference in mass, so let's also assume the balance point is the same, but how much will each affect the the "hit" of the cue, if any?

Let's say you started with a 3/8-10 but didn't glue it. Go hit some balls & note the hit. Now take it apart & retrofit a 7/16-14, then note the hit. Now retrofit again for 1/2-20 & note the hit. Other than the slight changes in balance due to weight, i'm betting all three hit exactly the same. This would test only the "A" joint screw, everything else would be exactly the same.

 

[ratcues]

My theory is I want as little weight as possible in the A-joint area.

This is the way I look at it but I've seen a 'legendary' cue, all maple, have a 3.5oz, 7/16-14 bolt at the A-joint and another 3.5oz, 7/16-14 bolt just ahead of the butt sleeve. The cue was made to look as if no weight was or could be added. I liked the idea of the balance issue because your hand would be between the two bolts giving the cue a nuetral balance....but 7oz of steel is a lot. I also believe there is more to the 'hit' of that cue besides the insides.... How else would you go about an all maple cue and get the weight up to, say, 19oz? Weight has to be added somewhere.

 

[ratcues]

Let's say you started with a 3/8-10 but didn't glue it. Go hit some balls & note the hit. Now take it apart & retrofit a 7/16-14, then note the hit. Now retrofit again for 1/2-20 & note the hit. Other than the slight changes in balance due to weight, i'm betting all three hit exactly the same. This would test only the "A" joint screw, everything else would be exactly the same.

That's a damn good idea and I hate myself for not thinking of it. I guess that is why I posed the question. Sometimes I over think.

Do you you believe the length of a pin, given the same thread and material, would change the hit?

 

[Jr's Farm]

..........

 

[qbilder]

This is the way I look at it but I've seen a 'legendary' cue, all maple, have a 3.5oz, 7/16-14 bolt at the A-joint and another 3.5oz, 7/16-14 bolt just ahead of the butt sleeve. The cue was made to look as if no weight was or could be added. I liked the idea of the balance issue because your hand would be between the two bolts giving the cue a nuetral balance....but 7oz of steel is a lot. I also believe there is more to the 'hit' of that cue besides the insides.... How else would you go about an all maple cue and get the weight up to, say, 19oz? Weight has to be added somewhere.

Sounds like a SW Satin. Nothing wrong with adding weight. The problem with threaded steel isn't the weight. It's the threads not locking well enough into the wood & creating buzz & rattles.

I bet that cue, whatever it was, played & felt just fine with all that 7oz. of steel in it.

 

[JoeyInCali]

sky is blue

 

[JoeyInCali]

Sounds like a SW Satin. Nothing wrong with adding weight. The problem with threaded steel isn't the weight. It's the threads not locking well enough into the wood & creating buzz & rattles.

I bet that cue, whatever it was, played & felt just fine with all that 7oz. of steel in it.

That cue would have plenty of cueball action but very little feel in the griphand imho.