I agree 100%.
Stevie Moore's Rules argument with Justin
- Thread starter RobertR
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I agree 100%.
The way I understood the discussion was that Stevie really did NOT like the rules in play at the Mezz tournament. They were playing full WPA rules which state that on a simple miss (when no balls goes in) the incoming player does NOT have the option to give it back but must take the table with balls in position (if the called ball went in a wrong pocket or another ball goes in on a miss then the incoming player can give back the table). He would prefer to see the rules as played in the SBE this year whereby the incoming player would have the option to give back the table on any and all misses.
Essentially the WPA rules take away some of the two-way shot strategy, but not all of it.
Yes it would.
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this thread needs an enema !!
How rare it is I find something that really deserves a .....boooo in public.This
thread sucks !! How crappy a life this guy must have to set and pick apart things
Stevie said.....geeez. Also saying Stevie sounds country is about like saying Joey A . sounds
cajun ...close but not really.It's real easy to set and judge but jump in there and see what
good you can do for yourself and others that's the real test and what I see in players like Stevie.
Stevie, your argument is tired. Earl has been making the same argument for years and where has it gotten the players? Nowhere. Still playing for scraps compared to the other sports.
I quote you: "people who can't play"... bzzzzt.
It's a widely held opinion that Chris Moneymaker couldn't play at all when he won 5 million. Look what he did for poker just by winning.
Time to stop acting like the professional pool players are curing cancer and are better than anyone else and realize that you are part of the problem with this statement.
Also, time to standardize the rules and get on with the business of being an ambassador for the game rather than your elitist attitude which only pushes pool farther from the mainstream.
Also, since you stated you had found your calling in pool commentating, here's a tip for you, change:
"people can't appreciate the hardness of the game"
to
"people can't appreciate the difficulty of the game"
It might make you sound less country.
How rare it is I find something that really deserves a .....boooo in public.This
thread sucks !! How crappy a life this guy must have to set and pick apart things
Stevie said.....geeez. Also saying Stevie sounds country is about like saying Joey A . sounds
cajun ...close but not really.It's real easy to set and judge but jump in there and see what
good you can do for yourself and others that's the real test and what I see in players like Stevie.
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I agree with you on this one!
I stand by what I said.
Justin said it much better later in the day (during the finals) though:
"Stevie wants us to be shooting spot shots, best out of a hundred wins."
And then (to Stevie):
"Do you realize how much you sound like Earl?"
DrOnePocket
Banned
Instead of arguing about what the rules should be in an obviously flawed game, why don't you guys learn how to play a more complete test of skills like One Pocket? 
I really don't think changing the rules in 9 and 10-ball are going to take or put many more fans/viewers in the seats and watching it on TV or stream. Pool is boring for everyone but the hardcore pool nuts.
IMO pool had a good shot at becoming big one time and one time only, and that was when Vegas made a line and took bets on a tournament. A hall of famer and a few other greedy players screwed that up by fixing the outcome. If you could gamble on pool online and at casinos pool would grow. Pool has always had a dark side, (hustling) and that sells.
Put out two movies with big stars in each. Have the story line in one, "How I Became the Best In the APA" and the other "Hustling Under the Radar". I know if one was a box office hit which one it would be.
I think TAR has the right idea putting on Action Matches for 10 to 50k or more. If I had the money I'd take it a few step more. Have 2, 3, or more matches on a card and promote, promote, promote them. Also the players need to be interviewed more before and after matches and the players need to become colorful household names. Hell, take an acting class or two if you don't know how to do an interview that fans will be glued to their seats and TV and Online (think Earl or Alex). You would need one table, not 8 to 50 tables. You would need an arena type setting with good seating. I'm done. Johnnyt
IMO pool had a good shot at becoming big one time and one time only, and that was when Vegas made a line and took bets on a tournament. A hall of famer and a few other greedy players screwed that up by fixing the outcome. If you could gamble on pool online and at casinos pool would grow. Pool has always had a dark side, (hustling) and that sells.
Put out two movies with big stars in each. Have the story line in one, "How I Became the Best In the APA" and the other "Hustling Under the Radar". I know if one was a box office hit which one it would be.
I think TAR has the right idea putting on Action Matches for 10 to 50k or more. If I had the money I'd take it a few step more. Have 2, 3, or more matches on a card and promote, promote, promote them. Also the players need to be interviewed more before and after matches and the players need to become colorful household names. Hell, take an acting class or two if you don't know how to do an interview that fans will be glued to their seats and TV and Online (think Earl or Alex). You would need one table, not 8 to 50 tables. You would need an arena type setting with good seating. I'm done. Johnnyt
I think the only way it will be significantly more popular is if a smart and creative business man comes along and transforms pool into something very entertaining but I think it would have to be something that Joe Public would like but most of the hardcore pool fans would not like as much.
Johnny, you're closer to the truth here. I hate to say it, but the players oftentimes have been there own worst enemies. It isn't the rules that need fixing! And the players don't get it. There really is nothing wrong with Texas Expres the way it was played for many years. Let players luck in a ball once in while, don't make them call all their shots, allow two way shots, the nine or ten on the break wins and all that! Yes, you heard me right.
All the above appeals to audiences everywhere, whether in person or on television. They love to see a player rally from behind, making a billiard on the nine and then snapping it in on the break. The crowd goes wild when stuff like that happens. I've seen packed rooms with 500 or more people on the edge of their seats, and you could hear a pin drop. I've been part of television productions that millions of fans watched live and were glued to their sets. And these were all matches where luck was definitely a possibility.
How often is luck a factor in big matches is another thing entirely? My observation is that among the best players, luck plays much less of a factor anyway. Yes it happens that a guy gets a good roll and hooks his opponent or lucks a ball in, but not that often. Even if it happens the audience loves to see a master like Efren kick his way out of a jam. That's all part of the game. I've seen many games turned around (and won) from bad leaves. Bottom line, it tests the ability of the incoming player, and that's what audiences want to see.
What's happening now with the way the rules are constantly being adjusted to take any and all luck out of the game, is not a good thing imo. Pretty soon the weaker players will not want to play and the audience will become bored as well. There will be nothing to cheer about. And the players will end up playing to empty rooms!
I just watched a Ten Ball tournament with a very strong field of players. They were using the Magic Ball Rack, which may be the best new innovation in the game. A good rack every time guaranteed. And they were playing the WPA rule that the ten ball cannot go on the break anywhere. Do you have any idea how many ten balls actually went in during the more than 150 matches. Try two or three! HELLO!!!! Put this rule back in the game for the sake of the game. And let a good player shoot a two way shot. It's cool! And if Johnny Archer misses and the ball somehow lucks in somewhere else, it's still his turn.
I just hope the "rule makers" and the players wake up before it's too late. They are going in the wrong direction here. If they think there isn't luck in golf or tennis at the highest levels they haven't been paying attention. How many lucky bounces has Tiger got in his career, and he's still the best player. Right? And the lucky net cord that won a major match for Agassi. Was anyone complaining about that? My opinion remains - a little luck once in a while is a good thing. And so is the Magic Rack.
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I have heard a lot of people talking about luck in pool ,the same guy's that are pro's now had luck when they were coming up, So now a pro they wanta take the luck out the game. How many times have you watched a pro match and someone luck in a shot from no were and the crowd went nuts?
There has never been money in pool and i feel it will never really be.
I hope one day it would but i fear that day will never come..
I love the game and i love when "i get lucky" in a match .
Keep getting lucky guys pro's or not we'll keep playing this crazy game.
There has never been money in pool and i feel it will never really be.
I hope one day it would but i fear that day will never come..
I love the game and i love when "i get lucky" in a match .
Keep getting lucky guys pro's or not we'll keep playing this crazy game.
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Yes. That is exactly what it does. It forces the player to play an intentional shot to pocket the ball or an intentional safe.
The two way shot only came about in nine ball because of one foul rules.
Texas Express was only enacted to make the game faster. Like communism it's had it's run, time to kill it.
I'd much rather give up the two way shots than to have to continue to fade atrocious rolls or apologize for mine.
I have been playing UPA rules ten ball for a couple months now and I love it. It's the only way I will gamble now - if my opponent doesn't want to play this way then we don't gamble and I don't lose any money and don't get frustrated.
So Stevie, you are in your chair watching Mika break on in the hill-hill us open finals. Great break, 2 balls down but the cueball gets kicked in the side pocket. How do you like luck now Stevie? You got 7 balls and ball in hand for $50k over 1 cueball getting kicked in.
Or better yet, Mika broke and ran to the 7 hill-hill and the 7 ball skid. More luck.
There is so much more luck than a slopped ball once every 5 racks.
Or better yet, Mika broke and ran to the 7 hill-hill and the 7 ball skid. More luck.
There is so much more luck than a slopped ball once every 5 racks.
Don't flatter yourself with that generalization. Some others know pushout better than you; some worse than you. (That said, with your name all bets are off...:wink
The bolded part? It applies to 1foul too. You kick a ball in 2 or 4 rails, make it and get out...seize power style. That is powerful stuff and makes for more exciting pool.
It makes no sense at all for an incoming player to shoot from anywhere other than where the ball lies.
At the risk of sounding like a
I agree with Jay on this (including the Magic Rack endorsement). And I agree with Mark Griffin's earlier post. I hated the SBE rules (YAWN!!!) and I think they'd be OVERALL bad for our sport, from style of play to watchability. My (albeit self-professed) nickname is "Thompson 2-way" and the creativity lost with SBE rules is dramatic!
As far as reinstating the 2 miss BIH, I'd have to see it and play it more to offer my opinion. I played it briefly way back in my infancy days and only recall seeing boatloads more incredible shots off the push. We need MORE excitement, not less.
(And BTW, the OP might have considered posting when he wasn't so emotional. He came off as an over-reacting hater IMO. Yes, valid discussion, just way too strong.)
I agree with Jay on this one. It is not the rules that need changing. The players need to consider luck is a factor in every major sport. Football, Basketball, Baseball, and etc. How many lucky rolls as you say have you seen in these games. The truth is luck is a factor sometimes but it usually does not prevail in the long run. Talent and skill will always beat out luck in a long race. What is everyone so afraid of.........someone is gonna beat you in a race to 7 or 11 on just luck......come one really. If you get beat in a long race....I don't really think luck did you in the entire set. JMO
That was a nice post by jay.
One thing I found when trying rollout 9b is a lot of the pressure is off. Pressure is what makes it sweeter when you win and more entertaining to the fans.
If the other guy catches a roll and I'm forced to kick, and missing the kick = ball in hand... and ball in hand = you lose... that's a lot of pressure.
It might seem unfair that missing a kick = loss of game... and for regular guys like me that's probably true. I couldn't kick a ball if it's 6 inches from my toe. But pros are expected to fade this stuff, and certainly they have tools (both kicking skills and jump cues) to make it doable.
It's not that I'm pro-luck, but I believe slop was consciously built into the game of 9b, as the popular games prior to it were call-shot. The idea is that if a player is forced to kick and if it happens to go in, they get rewarded for their nice effort and can keep shooting. Since a rotation game can force a lot of kicks intentionally or by accident, it just made sense.
One thing I found when trying rollout 9b is a lot of the pressure is off. Pressure is what makes it sweeter when you win and more entertaining to the fans.
If the other guy catches a roll and I'm forced to kick, and missing the kick = ball in hand... and ball in hand = you lose... that's a lot of pressure.
It might seem unfair that missing a kick = loss of game... and for regular guys like me that's probably true. I couldn't kick a ball if it's 6 inches from my toe. But pros are expected to fade this stuff, and certainly they have tools (both kicking skills and jump cues) to make it doable.
It's not that I'm pro-luck, but I believe slop was consciously built into the game of 9b, as the popular games prior to it were call-shot. The idea is that if a player is forced to kick and if it happens to go in, they get rewarded for their nice effort and can keep shooting. Since a rotation game can force a lot of kicks intentionally or by accident, it just made sense.
So I think this is kind of a catch 22 here. The top players in money or tournament matches want the game to be as difficult as possible. Tight pockets and call shot, this enables their skill to really show against a lesser player but less run outs and more safty play. Boring to the casual spectator who what to see players run out.
For TV and or spectators that are maybe less knowledgable in the game Big pockets and slop. This makes the game more exciting to the casual viewer watching ESPN and what could help the sport get more sponsorship, attention etc.
I guess we can't have it both ways or can we? I am not a top pro player but I think that if you leave the slop and luck element the cream will rise to the top in a race to 11.
I would not play a 5yr old for money in a race to 1 because YES everyone can get lucky, but the longer the race the talent will beat the luck. Unless someone gets lucky 11 racks in a row.
For TV and or spectators that are maybe less knowledgable in the game Big pockets and slop. This makes the game more exciting to the casual viewer watching ESPN and what could help the sport get more sponsorship, attention etc.
I guess we can't have it both ways or can we? I am not a top pro player but I think that if you leave the slop and luck element the cream will rise to the top in a race to 11.
I would not play a 5yr old for money in a race to 1 because YES everyone can get lucky, but the longer the race the talent will beat the luck. Unless someone gets lucky 11 racks in a row.
Great point! I've been watching all kinds of pool tournaments for going on four decades and some how, some way, the best players ALWAYS get there in the end. A weaker player NEVER lucks his way into the final seven or eight players. And I'll tell you why. Pool on the highest levels is more about character and heart. It takes courage to win big matches. Luck just won't cut it.
Don't flatter yourself with that generalization. Some others know pushout better than you; some worse than you. (That said, with your name all bets are off...:wink
The bolded part? It applies to 1foul too. You kick a ball in 2 or 4 rails, make it and get out...seize power style. That is powerful stuff and makes for more exciting pool.
It makes no sense at all for an incoming player to shoot from anywhere other than where the ball lies.
I'm not flattering myself at all, I think it's a fact of life that anyone who started playing in the last twenty years doesn't understand push out. How often do you kick a ball in 2 or 4 rails? I'd be not often, at least in competition. I'm with JB Cases, do away with the two-way shot. Jay makes a lot of good points, though. What would the Pros like to do, I wonder?