Turning Stone no longer a ranking event.

[nathandumoulin]

I posted the following in another thread. I received a request to start a dedicated thread regarding to the topic in hopes of generating an answer to the question. My post read as follows:

Rodney told me that the event will no longer be a ranking event, and that he will no longer be attending the Turning Stone tournaments. If that's the case, than perhaps other top players will follow suit, and the event will cease to be a top event.

Can anyone shed some light on why this has happened?

Jason Robichaud suggested that it could be a result of Johhny's players association demanding that prize money be put in holding prior to the event. Can anyone confirm this suspicion?

UPDATE: Az's own Jerry & Mike have both confirmed that future Turning Stone events have NOT been removed from the BCA rankings.

 

[Tom In Cincy]

IMO if this has any 'truth' to it, the PRO association might be doomed from the begining AGAIN

If you chose to force your will upon others and give them a choice to comply or NOT, you have to be prepared for the "NOT"

No tournaments NO paydays for the PROS .. who wins this contest?

I hope this 'rumor' is just a miss-communication. I would hate to see more public disgrace by 'bad decisions' made by a few against a tournament that has been nothing short of successful since its beginings.

I posted the following in another thread. I received a request to start a dedicated thread regarding to the topic in hopes of generating an answer to the question. My post read as follows:



Jason Robichaud suggested that it could be a result of Johhny's players association demanding that prize money be put in holding prior to the event. Can anyone confirm this suspicion?

I was told Zuglan's response to being told that some top players will no longer be attending, but I'll refrain from repeating it.

 

[JAM]

Here's the skinny I heard...

A year or so ago, one pro player complained angrily at a Joss/Turning Stone event to Mike Zuglan that he thought the players should be seeded. Mike said he doesn't seed players on the Joss Tour, that it's always been the luck of the draw.

Well, I'm not sure if this is the reason why, but it may be.

Zuglan has been running the Joss Tour for 14, subject to check, seasons now. He should be able to call the shots on his own tour without having to be dictated how to run his events. JMHO, FWIW!

 

[doitforthegame]

Jam- Mike has run the Joss tour for about 11 years. He picked up the slack when I gave up the All About Pool Tour and it became "The Tour" before eventually folding.

In my opinion, if anyone says anything to Mike other than "thank you!" they have rocks in their head. He runs a great tour, with great events year after year. I think there are 12 or 13 events for 2010-2011. That is simply amazing since there are probably only 10 rooms left in the Northeast.

People on the site keep asking why the purses are not bigger for pro pool players. This is why. Pool players are probably the worst business people I have ever come across. They keep making demands from a position of weakness. Turning Stone will sell out with or without "the pro's". It is a tremendous event in a first class venue. If as someone said, an ultimatum was given to Mike to put up the money or we won't come, I know what Mike will say. And I don't blame him!

Bob Campbell

 

[azhousepro]

To my knowledge, Mike has never had any delay in paying the players after an event. Per our interview with Johnny for Runout Radio, the main reason that the organization was formed was to make sure that players get paid.

Now it sounds like they are going back to the idea of forcing promoters to seed events or else the top players won't attend the event. What the players fail to understand is that the Turning Stone events are part of the Joss Tour. How can Mike seed the top pros into an event that is part of the tour that the top pros didn't support all year long. The Joss Tour regulars show up at multiple stops a year supporting the tour, and Mike is supposed to seed the top pros instead of his regular supporters? If anything, maybe Mike should seed based on his points list.

Mike has now run 15 Turning Stone Classic events. Turning Stone has added over $300,000 in prize money over the last 10 years. And this is the way the pros thank the venue and the promoter?

 

[cardiac kid]

Jen,

That player angrily denounced the event at the players meeting last year. As it was a ranking event, all those players in contention for the trip to the Mosconi Cup should have been given a "free" ride through the first round or two. Mike's reaction was as expected. He wasn't changing anything relating to seeding. And hasn't in the year since.

The Turning Stone has always paid the players in CASH. At least through the seventh/eighth positions. Never had experience above that level so I don't know that payout procedure. Seems pretty shortsighted of the new pro players group to demand escow from a very successful Native American Hotel and Casino. As this was the fifteenth event, they have already supported pool to the tune of nearly half a million dollars. And paid every player immediately! JMHO.

Lyn

 

[JAM]

Jam- Mike has run the Joss tour for about 11 years. He picked up the slack when I gave up the All About Pool Tour and it became "The Tour" before eventually folding.

I'm pretty sure it is older than 11 years. I was writing an article about Joss Tour several years ago, and they were on their 12th season, I believe. I may be wrong, and this is all subject to check.

I know Mike reads this forum, so anything I write here, I can say to him personally, no problem. :grin-square:

Ironically, one of the reasons out of many that Mike said he wanted to get a tour going in the Northeast is because he was sick and tired of certain star pool players getting preferential treatment, allowed to show up late to tournaments, getting byes just because they were busy, not having to pay the additional expenses that all other tournament competitors had to endure. He felt there was discrimination in this respect, and I have to say, having seen it myself up front and close, it is very true.

n my opinion, if anyone says anything to Mike other than "thank you!" they have rocks in their head. He runs a great tour, with great events year after year. I think there are 12 or 13 events for 2010-2011. That is simply amazing since there are probably only 10 rooms left in the Northeast.

People on the site keep asking why the purses are not bigger for pro pool players. This is why. Pool players are probably the worst business people I have ever come across. They keep making demands from a position of weakness. Turning Stone will sell out with or without "the pro's". It is a tremendous event in a first class venue. If as someone said, an ultimatum was given to Mike to put up the money or we won't come, I know what Mike will say. And I don't blame him!

Bob Campbell

The way I look at it, he is one of the few, aside from Allen Hopkin's pro event at Super Billiards Expo in Valley Forge, that gets a full roster ahead of time with a waiting list to play. If the so-called "pros" don't want to attend Turning Stone, then it's a huge plus for all the other players who love this event. IMO, it is one of my favorites. I've even driven up there in a snow blizzard, the only car on the road, to go to Verona, NY to attend a tournament at Turning Stone. The staff there actually really do like pool players, unlike other venues I have attended.

I've seen pool politics raise it's ugly head several times in the last decade. I used to get angry and irate about it, how it affected my plans attending pool tournaments, something I used to do two, three, and four times a month. My partner, on the other hand, it didn't bother him. He's seen it so many times in pool that he just tries to make the best of it. He's definitely not a follower. :grin:

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The existing lot of professional players in America is dwindling. Only a couple have fat stakehorses or sponsors to attend overseas events. More and more high-profile pool events are held overseas, and only these two or three sponsored players can attend due to expenses. Soon the pro player will be extinct.

The best bang for the buck is the regional tours, just like Joss Tour. It's economical, you can still hold a job, and you can actually enjoy pool. After all, that's what it should be all about: ENJOYING POOL!

ETA: OH, YEAH! Zuglan does pay in cash. I've come home many a weekend with five figures in my pocketbook after attending the Joss/Turning Stone tournament.

 

[Koop]

People on the site keep asking why the purses are not bigger for pro pool players. This is why. Pool players are probably the worst business people I have ever come across. They keep making demands from a position of weakness.

Bob Campbell

Felt this needed to be emphasized.

I just have to ask, do these top pros think that by not attending it's going to hurt the Turning Stone events going forward? If so, how? Obviously spectators isn't the issue because it's FREE to watch.
Seems to me that Mike has his priorities right where they should be, with the regulars who, event after event, support his tour.

 

[JAM]

Here's my all-time favorite Zuglan picture, and I do have quite a few. It is no secret that I am a Joss Tour fan.

It was taken in 2002 and was the last time Zuglan attended the U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship, I think. If I am wrong, I am sure Mike or Dana will be e-mailing me. LOL!

Both of these players look so slim and trim and NO GRAY HAIR! :grin:

 

[doitforthegame]

Jam- and that is Joe Tucker in the background. He still looks the same.

 

[jay helfert]

I posted the following in another thread. I received a request to start a dedicated thread regarding to the topic in hopes of generating an answer to the question. My post read as follows:



Jason Robichaud suggested that it could be a result of Johhny's players association demanding that prize money be put in holding prior to the event. Can anyone confirm this suspicion?

I was told Zuglan's response to being told that some top players will no longer be attending, but I'll refrain from repeating it.

That would be their loss. Look at who finished on top this year, a bunch of guys from the new pro players association. And Johnny has made some sweet paychecks from this event year after year. $8,000 is still $8,000 last I checked. That'll make a few house payments and buy a lot of groceries. Maybe someone needs to tell him that we are living through a seriously tight economy and many sponsors are discontinuing their support of all kinds of sporting events. Turning Stone could opt to cancel this twice a year event (with 50K added!) if the players try to dictate to them. The truth is they don't need to host a pool tournament to help their bottom line.

 

[nathandumoulin]

Felt this needed to be emphasized.

I just have to ask, do these top pros think that by not attending it's going to hurt the Turning Stone events going forward? If so, how? Obviously spectators isn't the issue because it's FREE to watch.
Seems to me that Mike has his priorities right where they should be, with the regulars who, event after event, support his tour.

How will it hurt the event? Well for one, the event will no longer have the same prestige. Without the top pros, the draw for spectators will diminish. If I were the casino, I'd consider this a loss of return on my investment and reduce the money added. The same applies to sponsors. I seriously doubt that Diamond will ship 16 tables to the venue if they knew that most of the top pros are no longer attending. No pros means no coverage, which in turn means no exposure for sponsors.

In truth, without the top pros I predict the downfall of this event within a handful of years.

On another note, I don't know the details so I won't side with or against Mike. I will say however that he runs a hell of an event and if indeed the players association is the culprit behind this, than I certainly respect Mike for standing strong.

 

[Koop]

How will it hurt the event? Well for one, the event will no longer have the same prestige. Without the top pros, the draw for spectators will diminish. If I were the casino, I'd consider this a loss of return on my investment and reduce the money added.

On another note, I don't know the details so I won't side with or against Mike. I will say however that he runs a hell of an event and if indeed the players association is the culprit behind this, than I certainly respect Mike for standing strong.

I know where you're coming from but I highly doubt they care one way or another. Mike has built a great relationship with the casino and to them it's just more people who will be gambling.
Also, 25K to these guys is pocket change. Hell, they probably write it off anyway.

Don't get me wrong. Do I want to see the top pros? Yes.
Do I think Mike should cater to a chosen few at the risk of alienating his loyal supporters? No.

 

[cardiac kid]

How will it hurt the event? Well for one, the event will no longer have the same prestige. Without the top pros, the draw for spectators will diminish. If I were the casino, I'd consider this a loss of return on my investment and reduce the money added.

Nathan,

The Turning Stone does not charge for spectating. Their reason for supporting the event is bringing new faces (and pocketbooks) to their hotel and casino. Most folks forget they have three World Class PGA level golf courses on their premises.

The same applies to sponsors. I seriously doubt that Diamond will ship 16 tables to the venue if they knew that most of the top pros are no longer attending. No pros means no coverage, which in turn means no exposure for sponsors.

It is my understanding Mike pays Diamond for the delivery and setup of the 16 tables used at each event. Could be wrong though.

In truth, without the top pros I predict the downfall of this event within a handful of years.

This is a great event with or without the top pro's. I expect the TS to keep supporting the event far into the future. It's the number of dollars wagered at the casino and how it changes with and without the pool tournament that will decide its future. Not which players decide to attend.

Lyn

 

[JAM]

The TS to keep supporting the event far into the future. It's the number of dollars wagered at the casino and how it changes with and without the pool tournament that will decide its future. Not which players decide to attend.

Lyn

Well, if the so-called "pros" boycott Joss/Turning stone, then it's going to open the door for a lot of players, maybe even some who will come out of retirement, just to compete there. I love thet venue.

In fact, see you in December!

 

[oldzilla]

Well, if the so-called "pros" boycott Joss/Turning stone, then it's going to open the door for a lot of players, maybe even some who will come out of retirement, just to compete there. I love thet venue.

In fact, see you in December!

Put me in Coach ! I ready to play the game !

Might have to dust off the stick !

 

[nathandumoulin]

Nathan,

The Turning Stone does not charge for spectating. Their reason for supporting the event is bringing new faces (and pocketbooks) to their hotel and casino. Most folks forget they have three World Class PGA level golf courses on their premises.

Lyn,

This is exactly my point. Drawing people in to spend money on other hotel/casino amenities is how Turning Stone makes their return investment.

Less top pros means less of a draw for spectators, which in turn means less of a return for the Casino. Without a sufficient ROI, the money added will be reduced.

 

[doitforthegame]

Well, if the so-called "pros" boycott Joss/Turning stone, then it's going to open the door for a lot of players, maybe even some who will come out of retirement, just to compete there. I love thet venue.

In fact, see you in December!

Ha-ha! Just what I was thinking. Might just give me something to work towards. I have played in this event before, but stopped when the "iron" started coming. I can deal with losing 9-2 to a Joss tour regular....but I never wanted to draw any of the top pros and have them laugh at me!

Bob

 

[JAM]

Well, if the so-called "pros" boycott Joss/Turning stone, then it's going to open the door for a lot of players, maybe even some who will come out of retirement, just to compete there. I love thet venue.

In fact, see you in December!

Ha-ha! Just what I was thinking. Might just give me something to work towards. I have played in this event before, but stopped when the "iron" started coming. I can deal with losing 9-2 to a Joss tour regular....but I never wanted to draw any of the top pros and have them laugh at me!

Bob

LOL! The irony here for the male pros -- sorry, guys -- is that the Turning Stone seems to also enjoy the lady pros competing in their events.

You should have seen them falling all over themselves when Jeanette Lee and Karen Corr were there. Even the pit bosses were coming upstairs to check out their games. It was kind of fun! :grin:

 

[oldzilla]

Lyn,

This is exactly my point. Drawing people in to spend money on other hotel/casino amenities is how Turning Stone makes their return investment.

Less top pros means less of a draw for spectators, which in turn means less of a return for the Casino. Without a sufficient ROI, the money added will be reduced.

Well yeah, but if I decide to play because I won't have to beat the Mosconi Cup team then all my fans will be there spending and gaming.
So the whole event goes up a half a ball at least !:grin-square: