Danny D. and the HOF

MikeM said:
Terry,

Nice post but with two corrections. I don't believe Jose is Filipino-American, just Filipino. Minor distinction, but I believe he was born in the Philipines.
Mike
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Hi Mike,

Parica has been a resident of Cali for well over 20 years now. I'm 90% certain that I also heard he was now a U.S. citixzen. Whether he is or not though, Cisero Murphy was born in the USA, not Africa. So if it's ok to refer to him as an "African-American", as the BCA does, then it just follows that Jose is a Filipino-American, since they feel the need to make a distinction. I'm an Italian-Czech-Poilish American. Or simply said, a North American American. :D

Jose, Jerry, Buddy, Cisero (may he R.I.P.), Danny, Keith, Jenny, Sherm, etc are all good people who love our great sport. The beef's not with any of them, it's with our "governing body" of American pool.

I've long had the impression that the powers to be at the BCA are really not pool fans or even lovers of pool. Rather, I get the strong impression that they are businessmen involved in a business. I don't think their intentions are to re-invigorate American pool or really honor the players, I think their main agenda is the business of trying to keep the BCA a business.

Hopefully, they will somehow get the message that so many real fans are bemoaning many of their decisions. And then, hopefully, they can improve how "things" are done at the BCA.
 
Terry Ardeno said:
Hi Mike,

Parica has been a resident of Cali for well over 20 years now. I'm 90% certain that I also heard he was now a U.S. citixzen. Whether he is or not though, Cisero Murphy was born in the USA, not Africa. So if it's ok to refer to him as an "African-American", as the BCA does, then it just follows that Jose is a Filipino-American, since they feel the need to make a distinction. I'm an Italian-Czech-Poilish American. Or simply said, a North American American. :D

Jose, Jerry, Buddy, Cisero (may he R.I.P.), Danny, Keith, Jenny, Sherm, etc are all good people who love our great sport. The beef's not with any of them, it's with our "governing body" of American pool.

I've long had the impression that the powers to be at the BCA are really not pool fans or even lovers of pool. Rather, I get the strong impression that they are businessmen involved in a business. I don't think their intentions are to re-invigorate American pool or really honor the players, I think their main agenda is the business of trying to keep the BCA a business.

Hopefully, they will somehow get the message that so many real fans are bemoaning many of their decisions. And then, hopefully, they can improve how "things" are done at the BCA.
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Terry, thanks for sharing your views. Frankly, I'm not sure I understand why the BCA is the "governing body" for our sport other than the fact it has been here a while. But as Scott Lee pointed out, it is a trade association. I don't think it is fitting for an industry trade group to be the governing body of anything. The USGA is not a trade group. Neither is the R&A. If anything, these governing bodies are in conflict with equipment manufacturers more than they are aligned with them.
 
Just want to add my two cents to this excellent thread. As a former voting member for the HOF I can tell you that Jerry and Fred's (Cornerman) info is right on. I know all the people (over 30) who are currently voting members and I can tell you they have the right people doing the voting. I do wish I was still an "at large" member of this committee but alas I'm not. I take this vote very seriously.

By the way, when I was on the committee, a list of candidates was submitted to us with all their credentials. We could suggest adding a name to the list and include their credentials if we chose too as well. I never did because the list always had what I believed to be the right people on it. I don't remember any "politicking" going on because we were all voting in the privacy of our homes via the internet. We would cast our votes via private e-mail to the committee chairman. We could vote for as few or as many players as we wanted. I believe a player needed to be named on 75% of the ballots to get in the HOF. That means at least 24 out of 32 members must vote for them.

Danny is a dear friend of mine, but I will openly admit I did not vote for him every year. With names like Buddy Hall, Efren Reyes and Earl Strickland on the ballot, I felt compelled to cast my ballot for the players I felt were most deserving at the time. I did vote for Jose Parica EVERY year though. IMO he is one of the all time greats of the game. If I ever get a chance to vote again, Danny would be at the top of my list in the "Veterans" category. So would Parica.

Danny also has a shot in the same category as Larry Hubbart and Terry Bell for "Meritorious Service." Danny has continued to enhance the world of Billiards since his retirement as an active player. His body of work as a commentator is quite impressive and he continues to build on it each year. His coaching has been instrumental in furthering the careers of many players and his lessons and clinics are among the most popular for pool buffs nationwide. The fact that he drives hundreds, if not thousands of miles, to put them on is also most impressive to me. Danny is no spring chicken.

In concluding I will only say that politics may have had a place in getting someone elected to the HOF many years ago, but that is no longer the case, and hasn't been for a very long time. Jerry told it like it is!
 
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jay helfert said:
Danny is a dear friend of mine, but I will openly admit I did not vote for him every year. With names like Buddy Hall, Efren Reyes and Earl Strickland on the ballot, I felt compelled to cast my ballot for the players I felt were most deserving at the time. I did vote for Jose Parica EVERY year though. IMO he is one of the all time greats of the game. If I ever get a chance to vote again, Danny would be at the top of my list in the "Veterans" category. So would Parica.
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Jay, thanks for the post. But there is something I just don't get. My understanding is that the top vote getter gets in plus anyone named on 75% of the ballots, and voters can vote for as many players as they want. Given this, if a voter feels that Danny or Jose is deserving to be in, why wouldn't they vote for him every year, regardless of who else is on the ballot? How does a voter feel Danny should be in one year and not another since it really is irrelevant who else is on the ballot? His record hasn't changed, if anything his continued involvement in the game only enhances his record every year. Same with a guy like Jose. I especially don't get how the votes for Jose could go substantially down in his last year of eligibility in the Greatest Players category.

Moreover, since it shouldn't matter who else is on the ballot, it is simply beyond my comprehension how it is possible that more than 25% of "knowledgeable" pool people who have votes don't think these two guys should be inducted.

If this is indeed the way the voting is done (the 75% thing), there is no basis for comparing people on the list to each other. Take each person on their own merits and vote for them or not.

Is my understanding of the voting process wrong? I would get it if say there was a limit of 2 people that can get in every year. Then, in a year when two contemporary standouts like JA and Allison are on the list, I could understand a voter wouldn't want to dilute their vote for these two by voting for anyone else (even though I'd still have a problem with it since they would have many years to get in while a Danny or a Jose are at the end of their eligibility). But I've never heard that this was the case anyway, so I'm still not ready to sign off on this glaring oversight.

Seriously, it is getting to the point, as well meaning, sincere, and thoughtful the voting committee may be, they are being laughed at a little by the pool community. The general consensus seems to be that the HOF is bordering on irrelevant. And believe me, I wish it wasn't so.
 
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DogsPlayingPool said:
Jay, thanks for the post. But there is something I just don't get. My understanding is that the top vote getter gets in plus anyone named on 75% of the ballots, and voters can vote for as many players as they want. Given this, if a voter feels that Danny or Jose is deserving to be in, why wouldn't they vote for him every year, regardless of who else is on the ballot? How does a voter feel Danny should be in one year and not another since it really is irrelevant who else is on the ballot? His record hasn't changed, if anything his continued involvement in the game only enhances his record every year. Same with a guy like Jose. I especially don't get how the votes for Jose could go substantially down in his last year of eligibility in the Greatest Players category.

Moreover, since it shouldn't matter who else is on the ballot, it is simply beyond my comprehension how it is possible that more than 25% of "knowledgeable" pool people who have votes don't think these two guys should be inducted.

If this is indeed the way the voting is done (the 75% thing), there is no basis for comparing people on the list to each other. Take each person on their own merits and vote for them or not.

Is my understanding of the voting process wrong? I would get it if say there was a limit of 2 people that can get in every year. Then, in a year when two contemporary standouts like JA and Allison are on the list, I could understand a voter wouldn't want to dilute their vote for these two by voting for anyone else (even though I'd still have a problem with it since they would have many years to get in while a Danny or a Jose are at the end of their eligibility). But I've never heard that this was the case anyway, so I'm still not ready to sign off on this glaring oversight.

Seriously, it is getting to the point, as well meaning, sincere, and thoughtful the voting committee may be, they are being laughed at a little by the pool community. The general consensus seems to be that the HOF is bordering on irrelevant. And believe me, I wish it wasn't so.
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Thanks for your contribution to the thread. :)

Just like in pool tournaments, you can't please everybody, and there will always be those who feel like they've gotten a bum deal. :(

Let the BCA voting members have their cake and eat it too. There's so many egos involved in pool today that it doesn't really matter anymore what others believe, even when it's the truth.
 
DogsPlayingPool said:
Terry, thanks for sharing your views. Frankly, I'm not sure I understand why the BCA is the "governing body" for our sport other than the fact it has been here a while. But as Scott Lee pointed out, it is a trade association. I don't think it is fitting for an industry trade group to be the governing body of anything. The USGA is not a trade group. Neither is the R&A. If anything, these governing bodies are in conflict with equipment manufacturers more than they are aligned with them.
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Never thought about it that way....wouldn't that make them some type of monopoly? Isn't that a conflict of interest....is that even LEGAL?

Could it be possible that the BCA could be legally forced to restructure and change....

I mean look at microsoft....the people wanted change for years.....the people can only change things with their pocket books (by not buying) but b/c they were in such a controlling postion people could not afford to not buy.....

So they used the law to make them change......

JAM what are your thoughts on this you know the law better than most of us Im sure. (by the way very nice of you to add that wiki page of Danny)

-Grey Ghost
 
greyghost said:
JAM what are your thoughts on this you know the law better than most of us Im sure.
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Naw, there's nothing against the law here. Every single person I have spoken to who has voted on this so-called "BCA Hall of Fame Committee" comes up with a different version of what transpires.

It is like the Wizard in the Wizard of Oz: Nobody knows what goes on behind the curtain.

Since they are a private organization, transparency isn't important.

Like everything else in pool, it's all about ego stroking. It's who you know. Anybody who has clout and money is the Pied Piper, and all the underlings who have a strong desire to be with the IN CROWD will follow them like trained little pigs.
 
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BCA, the original "paper tiger!"

.....well, for me Jerry, any comment defending the BCA in this screw-up seems ludicrous! What Hall Of Fame member can say that they have a winning record playing nine-ball, against the player considered by most to be the greatest of all time, Efren Reyes? That withstanding, how about beating Irving Crane playing straight pool in his prime? Through out the 60's, 70's, 80's, and even into the mid 90's, beating the very best Professional Pool Players on the planet in all 4 of the major games (bank, straight pool, nine-ball and one-pocket)! Oh yeah, and how many people have won the all around at Johnson City (1972, add that to this man's accomplishments)?
To me, this seems just like the business as usual policies of the BCA toward real pool players! The BCA has been like this towards truly great individuals in our sport,FOREVER! Well it's time for all of us to get outraged at this latest fiasco! The one man who can stand tall and say "I did all of that," is Danny DiLiberto!
 
JAM said:
Naw, there's nothing against the law here. Every single person I have spoken to who has voted on this so-called "BCA Hall of Fame Committee" comes up with a different version of what transpires.

It is like the Wizard in the Wizard of Oz: Nobody knows what goes on behind the curtain.

Since they are a private organization, transparency isn't important.

Like everything else in pool, it's all about ego stroking. It's who you know. Anybody who has clout and money is the Pied Piper, and all the underlings who have a strong desire to be with the IN CROWD will follow them like trained little pigs.
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Oh no I didn't mean in regards to the HOF voting....I'm talking about their sheer existance and how they control and do buisness in the sport....


By the way like your avatar....If you were an animal you would be a baby chicken with cool red glasses.....smartest chicken on the planet. But the question still stands what came first YOU or the EGG? :)
 
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greyghost said:
Oh no I didn't mean in regards to the HOF voting....I'm talking about their sheer existance and how they control and do buisness in the sport....
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They are the supposed "representative body" for North America in pool on an international scale, which includes Canada as well as the United States.

Here's what they say on the BCA website:

The Billiard Congress of America (BCA) was established in 1948, with early involvement by players like Willie Mosconi and Willie Hoppe. The objective was to organize the players and promote the sport through qualifying tournaments at the local, regional and national levels in Straight Pool and 3-Cushion billiards (the popular competitive disciplines of the era) and recognize those champions. Organizers were also determined to produce an official rulebook to standardize the sport and help fund the effort; and to involve billiard rooms, retailers and manufacturers in meeting these promotional goals.

During World War II, a great number of soldiers took up billiards at military camps and the industry expected a tremendous surge in peacetime popularity for the sport. But instead, soldiers generally returned home, got married, started families and built a suburban life. Despite the best efforts of the many constituents of the BCA, the sport fell into a depression in the late 1940s and the entire 1950s. Throughout this period, the association was anchored by its official rulebook and the official recognition of World and National Championships only through BCA sanctioning. In 1961 the movie "The Hustler" was released and single-handedly revived the sport for a few years. The BCA began promoting the US Open 14.1 Championships in 1966, the most prestigious professional event of its time.

From 1948 to 1980, the BCA had a board of directors and elected officers, but no physical headquarters. The National Sporting Goods Association kept the files of the BCA, and handled day-to-day administration. In 1980, long-time US Open director Robert Froeschle volunteered to set up a permanent BCA office in his hometown of Iowa City, Iowa. The BCA called Iowa City its home for many years, moving to bigger office space as the organization grew.

Here's where I think the BCA's mission made a change:

In 1982, the BCA board of directors decided to develop and host an industry trade show, at which all segments of the sport could meet. Today the BCA International Billiards & Home Recreation Expo is the largest billiard trade show in the world. Profits from the show, along with retail sales of "Billiards: The Official Rules & Records Book" generate substantial operating revenues, which allow the BCA to promote the sport at many different levels.

In February of 2000, the BCA relocated once again. But rather than move across town, the organization packed its bags and moved across the country to Colorado Springs, Colorado, in the hope of attracting corporate sponsors and moving cue sports toward Olympic recognition. With access to two major airports, Colorado Springs is home to the U.S. Olympic Committee, the U.S. Olympic Training Center and numerous National Governing Bodies for current Olympic sports.

In 2004, the BCA re-dedicated itself to achieving a united, growing, prosperous and highly regarded billiard industry through BCA leadership. The BCA enhances the success of its members and promotes the game of billiards through educational programs, the International Billiard & Home Recreation Expo, tournaments and other programs designed to make pool everybody's game.

In 2006, the BCA officially announced the hiring of Rob Johnson as its new chief executive officer. Shortly after joining the BCA staff, Johnson relocated the national office to Denver, Colorado, in May 2007, citing the convenience of the Denver International Airport for regular meeting of the BCA national directors. In addition, the BCA retained the services of Atlanta-based Meeting Expectations, a strategic consulting firm specializing in providing services to national trade associations. Meeting Expectations now provides membership, marketing, financial, IT and administrative services to the BCA.

Johnson said restructuring with Meeting Expectations will allow the BCA to become more responsive to the membership’s desire for marketing-enhanced services such as information on consumer attitudes and opinions relative to the billiard industry, trends within the industry, business improvement tips and seminars, and consumer marketing programs.

For the life of me, I just don't understand what they do. You go on their website, and there's numerous departments and employees. Professional pool is suffering. I cannot figure out why there is not more emphasis placed on professional pool by the BCA. It seems to be more about the industry members turning a profit.
 
New Pool Hall of Fame?

Maybe it is time for someone that has the time/knowledge/desire and community standing to create a AZB Hall of Fame Board of Directors and make that the de-facto standard HOF!

Solicit input from our community and put together an honest HOF.

I think that would be great!

--Jeff
 
JAM said:
They are the supposed "representative body" for North America in pool on an international scale, which includes Canada as well as the United States.

Here's what they say on the BCA website:

The Billiard Congress of America (BCA) was established in 1948, with early involvement by players like Willie Mosconi and Willie Hoppe. The objective was to organize the players and promote the sport through qualifying tournaments at the local, regional and national levels in Straight Pool and 3-Cushion billiards (the popular competitive disciplines of the era) and recognize those champions. Organizers were also determined to produce an official rulebook to standardize the sport and help fund the effort; and to involve billiard rooms, retailers and manufacturers in meeting these promotional goals.

During World War II, a great number of soldiers took up billiards at military camps and the industry expected a tremendous surge in peacetime popularity for the sport. But instead, soldiers generally returned home, got married, started families and built a suburban life. Despite the best efforts of the many constituents of the BCA, the sport fell into a depression in the late 1940s and the entire 1950s. Throughout this period, the association was anchored by its official rulebook and the official recognition of World and National Championships only through BCA sanctioning. In 1961 the movie "The Hustler" was released and single-handedly revived the sport for a few years. The BCA began promoting the US Open 14.1 Championships in 1966, the most prestigious professional event of its time.

From 1948 to 1980, the BCA had a board of directors and elected officers, but no physical headquarters. The National Sporting Goods Association kept the files of the BCA, and handled day-to-day administration. In 1980, long-time US Open director Robert Froeschle volunteered to set up a permanent BCA office in his hometown of Iowa City, Iowa. The BCA called Iowa City its home for many years, moving to bigger office space as the organization grew.

Here's where I think the BCA's mission made a change:

In 1982, the BCA board of directors decided to develop and host an industry trade show, at which all segments of the sport could meet. Today the BCA International Billiards & Home Recreation Expo is the largest billiard trade show in the world. Profits from the show, along with retail sales of "Billiards: The Official Rules & Records Book" generate substantial operating revenues, which allow the BCA to promote the sport at many different levels.

In February of 2000, the BCA relocated once again. But rather than move across town, the organization packed its bags and moved across the country to Colorado Springs, Colorado, in the hope of attracting corporate sponsors and moving cue sports toward Olympic recognition. With access to two major airports, Colorado Springs is home to the U.S. Olympic Committee, the U.S. Olympic Training Center and numerous National Governing Bodies for current Olympic sports.

In 2004, the BCA re-dedicated itself to achieving a united, growing, prosperous and highly regarded billiard industry through BCA leadership. The BCA enhances the success of its members and promotes the game of billiards through educational programs, the International Billiard & Home Recreation Expo, tournaments and other programs designed to make pool everybody's game.

In 2006, the BCA officially announced the hiring of Rob Johnson as its new chief executive officer. Shortly after joining the BCA staff, Johnson relocated the national office to Denver, Colorado, in May 2007, citing the convenience of the Denver International Airport for regular meeting of the BCA national directors. In addition, the BCA retained the services of Atlanta-based Meeting Expectations, a strategic consulting firm specializing in providing services to national trade associations. Meeting Expectations now provides membership, marketing, financial, IT and administrative services to the BCA.

Johnson said restructuring with Meeting Expectations will allow the BCA to become more responsive to the membership’s desire for marketing-enhanced services such as information on consumer attitudes and opinions relative to the billiard industry, trends within the industry, business improvement tips and seminars, and consumer marketing programs.

For the life of me, I just don't understand what they do. You go on their website, and there's numerous departments and employees. Professional pool is suffering. I cannot figure out why there is not more emphasis placed on professional pool by the BCA. It seems to be more about the industry members turning a profit.
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OHHHHH I SEE......i understand....they don't do anything....it all makes sense now...CLOAK AND DAGGER imop

If any other professional sport was ran the way the BCA has handled professional pool....the players and owners would walk out on them....plain and simple.

Do we even need them? I don't see why we do? They havent done anything in decades nor does the wonderful organization of the APA....you would think that maybe the BCA could use some profit sharing idea within all the companies that make billiards products.

A few cents from every dollar from every major manufacturer would go a long way to make a cohesive professional tour.

Remember they could take a cool million dollars and have 20 tournaments a year that are 50K $$$ ADDED Thats two tournaments a month basically...

They could get a million as easy as me and you can get a couple hundred....thats chump change they havent done something like that b/c they don't want too.
 
MikeM said:
Terry,

Nice post but with two corrections. I don't believe Jose is Filipino-American, just Filipino. Minor distinction, but I believe he was born in the Philipines.
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Sorry if this is hijacking the thread but...

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

Fred Agnir <~~~ Filipino American
 
Not sure either Fred but maybe Jose considers himself a Filipino that lives in America. Is Jose a citizen of US now or has some visa that allows him to live here? I don't know.

Fred - maybe you have dual citizenship or you were born in US by FIlipino parents?

Not that any of that matters to me - a pool player is a pool player no mater what race, color, etc.

--Jeff


Cornerman said:
Sorry if this is hijacking the thread but...

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

Fred Agnir <~~~ Filipino American
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Masirib5 said:
Not sure either Fred but maybe Jose considers himself a Filipino that lives in America. Is Jose a citizen of US now or has some visa that allows him to live here? I don't know.

Fred - maybe you have dual citizenship or you were born in US by FIlipino parents?

Not that any of that matters to me - a pool player is a pool player no mater what race, color, etc.

--Jeff
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Jeff,
Did you get a chance to read this whole thread? Joey verified what we were almost certain of in post #43. Jose Parica is an American citizen.
 
No way to put a good spin on this

JAM said:
Holy crap, I can't believe I missed that thread. I just got finished reading it in its entirety. :eek:

I am completely stunned and cannot even come up with words to relay my thoughts. Things will never be the same for me now. I kind of wish I had not read it. Woe is me. :(
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JAM,
This is yet another example of the decisions that the "powers that be" make that are more and more questionable from the serious pool fans perspective.

Seems like most of their decisions / choices are greeted the same way by the fans, i.e., "What duh???" Or, as you so elegantly said..."Woe is us."

Said another way, if the decisions / choices that the BCA suits make are generating all these negative comments and unanswered questions, I think it's fair to say they are out of touch with pool, at least as the pro players and die hard railbirds see it. Either that or they just don't give a hoot what the pro players and fans feel.

And I still have not heard or read one single answer to the question I posed several posts back....Why was Earl Strickland, the MOST decorated and credentialed American born and bred player since Luther Lassiter, passed over every year and only inducted on his final year of eligibility?
"WE" know the real answer to that question, but those who blackballed him will never admit it.

The only major men's pro tournament that was sponsored by the BCA has been cancelled. But, they've made up for that by an increase in sales of dartboards and assorted non-pool related knick-knacks at their annual trade show.

This is all very disheartening.
 
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