I also own a Justis Case Pro-Lite with an interior made for Jack by the Chinese, and a Couple of Ron Thomas Cases, made here in the US.
Viking Cues...........
- Thread starter ibuycues
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I also own a Justis Case Pro-Lite with an interior made for Jack by the Chinese, and a Couple of Ron Thomas Cases, made here in the US.
Cowboy it truly is a Global marketplace. If there is a choice of items ultimately the consumer will decide where the items will be made by decisions they make on purchasing these items. Normally that decision is based on a combination of price and or quality.
However Sir your assumption that our oil comes mainly from the Middle East is a little misleading. The single biggest exporter of Oil to the US is our northern neighbour Canada. In fact only between 25-30% of our oil comes from the Middle Eastern Countries. Around 40-50% comes from North, South and Central America.
However Sir your assumption that our oil comes mainly from the Middle East is a little misleading. The single biggest exporter of Oil to the US is our northern neighbour Canada. In fact only between 25-30% of our oil comes from the Middle Eastern Countries. Around 40-50% comes from North, South and Central America.
Thanks for your Oil Expertise Oil Numbers. Bottom like is even if something like a Pool Cue Case is made in the USA, if you check the origin of component parts I am sure some come from off shore like the Fabric, Metal Parts, Thead and Lining:wink:
Spent nearly forty years in the consumer electronics business. Watched people laugh at the owners manual of the first Pioneer Receivers from Japan. Eventually Pioneer, Panasonic and Sony drove Fisher, Sylvania and Scott Electronics out of business. People stopped laughing. Other than a few "cottage" American electronic companies, consumer electronics is wholly an Asian business. The Japanese eventually looked over their shoulder at Taiwan. The Taiwanese looked at the Malaysians The Malaysians look for the Chinese. The Chinese are now watching India very closely.
American consumers were told they wanted cheap and they got it. Of course, few thought about the consequences. Like jobs. From my experience, Walmart is both directly and indirectly responcible for our situation. "Low prices always". Live in a relatively small town with a Walmart? Drive down your main street and look at all the closed small businesses. Sure, Levi's are a lot less than at Joe's General Store. When there is no more Joe's, what will we do then? What will the people who worked there do? Work for Walmart?
Only reason I'm dead set against drilling for oil in Alaska. Where will the oil go? Not here! The Asians will pay a lot more for it than we will. The oil companies will destroy our pristine countryside for what? So a bunch of fat cats can get even richer? Notice that is never part of the discussion? Only that we (America) are short of oil and we need to explore more. Our politicians are great at keeping the public distracted from the real issues. And that will be our real downfall!
Although I've played with the same Schon for nearly twenty years, losing Viking is just another stake in America's heart! My next cue will be American made. Though to be honest, my new car is a Honda. American made of course.
Lyn
I worked , I played pool. Both for making money. Both to survive !
I relate to Mosconi's feeling alot in recently read book "the Hustler and the Champ".
Willie hated pool. Perhaps not when he learned at a young age. But when it turned into a job it was very different.
I felt the same much of the time. I was playing to make money. I worked to make money. Doing them together got me by.
The best senario was a seasonal job doing siding in the summer and playing pool in the winter. I could give pool more of a devoted chance like this.
Anyway, I often thought as my jobs would be gone overseas all of a sudden, wouldn't it help the businesses here alot if there was taxes on all these imported products ? Or even is there ?
It seems to me if the playing field was more leveled for our own industries they would of stayed here and it would not have gotten to this huge lack of productivity !
Without being a productive country we have fallen into needing imports in a way that is almost scary.
What if all the coutries that send us the things we depend on said no you cant have anymore ! Yikes I think, we would be in big trouble.
A long time ago someone somewhere should have thought about us taking care of us.
TheThaiger
Banned
Sorry to say this but you Americans have a CRAZY attitude towards oil. The consumer drives your oil policy, not your government - any politician that advocates raising the price of oil to match the rest of the world would be voted out immediately. Consumers need to change their habits, not politicians.
The bottom line for the US is, change your oil policy or continue to die. You will be raped by China if you don't take steps to wean yourself off your dependence on oil. You are going to have to get used to smaller cars, more expensive gas, less air con, fewer swimming pools and less consumption of energy intensive consumables. You know what? It isn't that bad. The average American citizen uses five times the amount of natural resources than the average Chinese person. How long is that sustainable? The taps will be turned off eventually.
America seems to have lost its moral compass - losing Viking is another wake up call for you.
TheThaiger
Banned
Protectionism must be resisted at all costs. Why prop up ailing industries? Makes no sense whatsoever, especially in the long term.
Most people view this from the wrong way 'round. American cue makers should not seek to compete, they should seek to innovate. The flow of wealth from west to east should be seen as an opportunity as well as a threat - the potential for American manufacturers to sell their goods to the emerging Chinese/indian markets are VAST. India alone has a larger middleclass than Western Europe - who'd have thought that a few years ago? Add in the hundreds of millions of newly cashed-up chinese and you've serious market potential.
The west needs to innovate, not replicate. Had Viking adapted their business model accordingly, they could have competed with any manufacturer, irrespective of where they're based.
BL died because it made shit cars, pure and simple. It got into that position through complacency. I'm not familiar with recent improvements in US car production but it's good to hear. Let's hope they make them smaller and more stylish in the process. The problems with Honda and Toyota are storms in a teacup and indicative of nothing.
Now what on earth could you possibly have hidden in your package food that spies would be interested in?
couple of years ago, I bought a Viking as a gift for my cousin, she going through a painful divorce. (Aren't they all?)
I gave it some test play before giving it to her. I liked the hit.
As far as cars go? Fight Socialism, buy a Ford. Ford was the only USA car maker who said "no thanks" to becoming a ward of the state. I bought an '09 Bullitt Mustang. I like the car...not brutally fast, but faster than most. Handles like a dream, cornering like it's on rails. Great stereo with ipod, air that makes icecubes. Good milage from it's overhead cammed 4.6 V-8.
I gave it some test play before giving it to her. I liked the hit.
As far as cars go? Fight Socialism, buy a Ford. Ford was the only USA car maker who said "no thanks" to becoming a ward of the state. I bought an '09 Bullitt Mustang. I like the car...not brutally fast, but faster than most. Handles like a dream, cornering like it's on rails. Great stereo with ipod, air that makes icecubes. Good milage from it's overhead cammed 4.6 V-8.
let's face it their cues were ugly, there I said it 
:duck:
:duck:
let's face it their cues were ugly, there I said it
I second that. I look at a lot of pool cues on line and they were the worst overall in design.
If the average home player or bar banger is looking to buy a cue and surfs the net what does he see? He see's a plain jane Joss or Viking for $200 or so. Then he sees a (insert any Chinese made cue) with real veneer points and maybe some diamond shaped inlays for the same $200.He knows nothing about quality of build just the fact that he gets some eye candy for the same price. I think this buyer is the bulk of the market.Also there was a post regarding looking at a cue in a store and then buying it online for the usual 20% off MSRP. I did the same thing but offered to buy at internet pricing and they did it. All I payed extra was local sales tax which was worth it because I got to see in person and hit balls with it.
At one time Japanese goods were cheaper then made in the US. Then the Japanese economy caught up with us and now we buy from the Chinese. If the Chinese economy catches up with us it will probably shift to India.So a 100 years from now where will it be?
Who should take care of you? America is a productive country, we consume most of what we produce in the USA and a lot of what other countries produce on top it.
If China ever said they will stop selling us computers and TV's then what would happen? We would produce them in the USA and people would buy them. But that's never going to happen.
Tariffs only serve to "protect" the profits short term or certain manufacturers. All they do is move money from one group - consumers - to another group - manufacturers. A tariff is not making the playing field level it makes it unlevel.
Let's use the very real "playing field" analogy and apply it to pool just to keep it relevant to the main forum.
You and I are playing one pocket and you are a road player who is much stronger than me. The pool table we are playing on is tight and level. First you beat me badly and I ask for weight but it's not enough and you continue to beat me. So I decide that I want the pool room step in and protect me and the "local money". So tell the pool room owner to put some pins under the rail to make the balls veer away from the opponent's pocket. He overcomes this and I have the table made slightly unlevel, he overcomes this and I have my pocket enlarged slightly. I keep doing these things to try and make a game that allows me to compete "equally" when the real problem is that I won't invest in getting better so that I don't need to have people helping me and getting ridiculous weight to make an even game.
Because the whole idea of continually trying to build in an edge is a never ending endeavor. You ask for more weight, he adjust the game, you put pins in the cloth, he adapts and overcomes - all the while you are making him stronger. You might win with such a gaffe in the short term but at the end of the day he will come back and beat your gaffe and bust you.
The other alternative is to play cheap straight up and learn. Improve your game and let him teach you to get better. Protect yourself by increasing your own skill and not relying on handicaps (subsidies) and other tricks to win.
Lastly, who do you think pays for Tariffs? The consumer pays for them.
If I have a pool cue and it cost $20 to import it and the goverment slaps a 100% tariff on it then now that cue costs $40 to import. If we were to go with say a 5x cost model to ascertain the price of the cue then that cue would be $200 retail. Say that this is meant to help the US manufacturers compete in the $100-$150 retail range. So if the cue were $20 with no tariff then it would be priced at $100 retail. With a tariff then it goes to anywhere between one and two hundred.
So let's set it at Retail $200 and import cost $40.
Compared to a USA Made comparable cue at $150 retail.
So on the face of it the USA Made cue is the better deal right? Made in the USA and $150 as opposed to Made in China and $200. Tariff works right?
Not so fast..........
Remember that the importer is still paying $40 for this cue - ($20 of which is the 100% tariff)
So the USA manufacturer has to sell his cues to wholesale and retail outlets in order to get them distributed. Let's just take the retail store to keep the example simple and equate the importer and the USA manufacturer.
USA Manufacturer has their cue priced at $150 and sells it to the retail store for $75. So there is a potential profit of $75 IF the cue sells at full retail.
Importer has their cue priced at $200 and sells their cue to the retail store for $75 also giving the retailer a potential profit of $125. And the retailer can offer a larger discount and still make more money.
From a retail standpoint the imported cue is still more attractive. Assuming that the quality is comparable enough that the average consumer would consider them to be in the same class.
At the end of the day the extra cost for the tariff is passed on to the consumers either way. Only the government collects more money which is indirectly paid by the taxpayers.
Without the 100% $20 tariff on the $20 cue the same cue is priced at $100 and the consumer keeps more money in their pocket to spend as they wish.
Since the importer is unlikely to be able to buy the USA Manufacturer's $150 cues at $40 the cost of the imported cue will still be more attractive to them even with a 100% tariff.
The manufacturer in the foreign country isn't paying the tariff. He says to the importer, "I want $20 for my cue". He doesn't care if the US Government imposes a tariff or not.
But then here is another kicker in this tale.
What do you do when the foreign manufacturer and the importer agree that the price of the cue is not $20 but instead $5 and the other $15 is to be paid to another company for the design fees. So in the end the foreign manufacturer is getting his $20 per cue and the importer is bringing in cues that have an "invoice" cost of $5. Tack on that 100% tariff and now the cue costs just $25 to import instead of $40.
But but but that's illegal and immoral you say! Foul.
Well guess what? Commerce is fluid. You are against price fixing right? In other words you don't want all the cue sellers to get together and fix the prices of cues at a minimum of $300 do you? Well then don't allow the government to step in and start attempting to fix or influence prices either. Because that leads to business coming up with creative accounting ways to keep their costs from being artificially inflated.
How many people have ever fudged on their income taxes? Think about it, when you do something to reduce the amount of tax you SHOULD pay then you are doing the same thing that a corporation is doing to reduce the amount of money they pay on top of their normal production costs.
The point is that the more rules and tariffs are imposed the more cost it adds which are then either worked around to keep cost down or passed onto the consumer.
In no case does it stop the flow of goods.
Here is what's really happening.
Currently China has about 300 million people in the so-called middle class. As defined by the ability to buy a house and a car. The Chinese are turning into world-class consumers. Wages are rising rapidly, the standard of living is rising rapidly. Soon it will not be a low-wage country anymore. This is the direct result of being opened to the western markets.
As Chris pointed out the Chinese don't want want Chinese made goods. Not because the Chinese don't make good products. They do. And they make a lot of crap as well no doubt. But the REASON that they don't want domestic goods is that there is prestige involved with buying goods made somewhere else. There is also a perception that that the quality is "better" on average.
So this market is HUNGRY for Western goods. One way to turn it off is for the USA to adopt a protectionist standpoint and make China into some evil entity. The last thing you want is 300 million Chinese deciding that they really don't want Made in USA goods.
We are on a globe like it or not. We can't build a fence around the equator or any other place and pretend that the rest of the world doesn't exist.
We need them and they need us. We are all people.
Companies come and go. Viking's demise is part of a business cycle. Who knows, if they had done just one or two things differently then perhaps they would be strong and healthy now. You find such examples throughout history of companies that created their own downfall and others that created their own success.
Apple was on the brink of extinction 10 years ago.
It's all part of the ebb and flow of life.
Viking had also some of the best looking cues out there. And some of the most innovative. Gordon Hart was a pioneer in the business and one of the few (maybe the only) manufacturer to use 4th axis CNC.
I disagree about their cues being ugly. Some yes, but most were very pretty and well balanced in the design.
I disagree about their cues being ugly. Some yes, but most were very pretty and well balanced in the design.
let's face it their cues were ugly, there I said it
No reason to duck, you are certainly entitled to an opinion, but lets just say sometimes it is better to say nothing than to prove you have limited knowledge of a subject.
So either shit or get off the pot, but stirring it serves no purpose!!!!!
This thread isn't about China, but I hope it opens a few eyes. We have to keep our businesses up-to-date in every aspect, or we become obsolete. I'm as guilty of a manager as anybody in ignoring progress.
One thing I noticed about the Chinese consumer during my visit was they are very conscious of labels and name brands. The youthful, educated, working professionals are the consumer class in China. They could spot a fake a mile away too. I was wearing a Sean Jon winter coat I bought at TJ Maxx for $30 (we don't own warm coats in Los Angeles) and they commented on it and looked at it many times during the trip. The Chinese consumer is somewhat juvenile in that regard, almost naive. The older people of my generation are largely deprived and uneducated. Communism failed the people miserably, and the sheer number of the poor and illiterate are staggering.
I was thinking that some American quality cues would be in demand over there, especially entry level customs and mid level players like Schon's.
Chris
One thing I noticed about the Chinese consumer during my visit was they are very conscious of labels and name brands. The youthful, educated, working professionals are the consumer class in China. They could spot a fake a mile away too. I was wearing a Sean Jon winter coat I bought at TJ Maxx for $30 (we don't own warm coats in Los Angeles) and they commented on it and looked at it many times during the trip. The Chinese consumer is somewhat juvenile in that regard, almost naive. The older people of my generation are largely deprived and uneducated. Communism failed the people miserably, and the sheer number of the poor and illiterate are staggering.
I was thinking that some American quality cues would be in demand over there, especially entry level customs and mid level players like Schon's.
Chris
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The "f" series cues were pretty sharp. there was one that sticks out in my mind. it was like 4 points (holly or some white color) into rosewood (or similar dark wood) with holes (dark wood) in the points.
most of the f series were pretty cool
Will
I went to school in Ann Arbor and in 1972 I drove to Detroit to go to a billiard store and I bought an Adam cue with a 3 color wrap (one shaft) for $35. A year later my dad got me a Viking V90 from that catalog for Christmas. I remember he had to go drive to somewhere in the Buffalo winter the day before Christmas to get it to me in time. That cue was stolen out of my car some 10 years later when I was playing in Los Angeles with my Schrager. As I'm sure you very well understand, I'd pay like crazy to get that Viking back now.
Thanks
Kevin
Viking made THE coolest 'sneaky pete' cue I've ever seen. It looked like the points intertwined into a kind of 'tree branch' look. First time I saw it, I though, "Wow, that has to be tough to fit the front part of the handle into the back part of the handle." I still think it's a sharp looking Viking cue. I can see it in my mind still, but don't have a picture of it. If somebody has a Viking catalogue, maybe they'll post a pic!
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com