Mika stop crying about the rack!

[cleary]

First of all, rack your own is a GREAT IDEA. KEEP IT! But 9 on the break, at least in the bottom to pockets, should not count.

Aside from that, changing the rules for the final day is bad. Tournaments should remain consistent throughout.

I don't so much mind the longer race for finals, but messing with the racking rules is not cool.

 

[JarnoV]

First of all, rack your own is a GREAT IDEA. KEEP IT! But 9 on the break, at least in the bottom to pockets, should not count.

I agree. It's smooth and it's fair. But only if 9 on the break doesn't count.

The stuff with the racks in the final day was just too painful to watch and I bet the players didn't like that either.

 

[jay helfert]

I just got home two hours ago and it's 3 AM now. It's been a lonnng week and I'm dead tired, but there is no way I can't post on this thread.

All the following is mostly my point of view with some facts thrown in for good measure. First of all, imo opinion "rack your own" is the best way to go in 9-Ball. "Loser racks" can take forever and a day, and lead to some heated debates. "Winner racks" is the lesser of two evils. Ideally we would have referees racking on all the tables, but that just isn't possible, although it was considered this year. We used neutral rackers on the final day because it was possible, and we had three well qualified people to do that job.

There will NEVER be an easy solution for racking the balls in 9-Ball, mainly because of the open configuration of the rack. The best solution we've come up with is to add a ball and make it Ten Ball. Now you have a solid rack with a full back row. Still the very best players (and breakers) will find a way to make balls with any rack. A lot of people don't know that one of Earl's great talents was figuring out the beat break on any given table. He would practice breaking and work things out prior to his match. His break was not the hardest, just the most effective. One reason why Ralf has had so much success in tournaments is his ability to figure out the proper (best) break on the tables being used. And yet no one talks about his powerful break. It just happens to work real well! Funny huh?

I do happen to like the Delta rack. I think it is the best engineered triangle I've seen so far. Diamond's wood triangle is another good one by the way. And I've come to love the Magic rack. But all these racks can be defeated/overcome by the skills (and talent) of today's top players. There has never been a rack genius like Corey and other players have learned a lot from him, mostly by close observation. Once again, in the game of 9-Ball we may never find a way to achieve a "perfect" rack. One change you can expect to see next year in the Open is that the nine ball will not count on the break in the two bottom corner pockets. That cuts out a lot of shenanigans on the rack.

What happened in the Hot Seat match yesterday, was that I had a difficult time getting the one ball to freeze to the first two balls perfectly. No matter how I racked them it still separated by a hair from one ball behind it. And when I say a hair, it was literally maybe a couple of thousandths of an inch from being frozen. No matter, Mika wasn't happy and I did my best to accommodate him. A big mistake on my part and maybe not the best thing for Mika either. I should have done what Bill Stock (an excellent referee) did in the second match, told him to go ahead and break. I allowed Mika too much leeway and it may have been to his detriment, because he lost any momentum he may have had. Mika appeared out of sorts in this match for whatever reason. I'm not sure what was going on with him, but he displayed negative energy from start to finish. And it wasn't just because of the rack either. A big contrast to the last two years when he was focused and very comfortable on the final day. In spite of all this, the match should have gone hill-hill. In that last rack Mika made some beautiful shots (how about that four ball down the rail!) and then missed a relatively easy shot on the seven ball. He just lost focus on that shot and it cost him - DEARLY!

We did try changing the spot, which will often work, but for whatever reason even that didn't help. Bill and Kenny had just as much trouble racking as I did. To his credit Mika did finish third this year, after two wins. Not so bad, imo. He also won the $1,000 high run award, opening with six perfect run-outs in a match on Thursday evening. The $11,000 he picked up this week should do a lot to soothe the pain of losing to Shane.

 

[JarnoV]

We used neutral rackers on the final day because it was possible, and we had three well qualified people to do that job.

But what was up with all the hassle about the racks in the final day? Neither of the players seemed to accept the racks they were given and Mika especially seemed unsatisfied with the situation.

I'm pretty sure that no one wants to watch people racking the balls. I understand the players' point of view in that they don't want to get bad racks, but the way it went in the US Open final day isn't what the spectators want to see. That's why magic rack is such a great invention, it takes away the part no one wants to see in a live stream.

 

[jay helfert]

But what was up with all the hassle about the racks in the final day? Neither of the players seemed to accept the racks they were given and Mika especially seemed unsatisfied with the situation.

I'm pretty sure that no one wants to watch people racking the balls. I understand the players' point of view in that they don't want to get bad racks, but the way it went in the US Open final day isn't what the spectators want to see. That's why magic rack is such a great invention, it takes away the part no one wants to see in a live stream.

You must have posted this before I finished writing my entire post above. Hopefully that will answer some of your questions.

 

[JarnoV]

You must have posted this before I finished writing my entire post above. Hopefully that will answer some of your questions.

Yeah, it appears so.

 

[Tony_in_MD]

I agree and I thought I heard Barry in his statements just before the final match, that he was going to make that change in the Open for next year.

9 on the break in the bottom two pockets will not count.

Again I thought I heard this, but by Saturday I was one step from comatose.

First of all, rack your own is a GREAT IDEA. KEEP IT! But 9 on the break, at least in the bottom to pockets, should not count.

Aside from that, changing the rules for the final day is bad. Tournaments should remain consistent throughout.

I don't so much mind the longer race for finals, but messing with the racking rules is not cool.

 

[Phidget]

Barry did indeed say they would stay rack your own as this year, and that 9 ball in foot pockets will be spotted based on feedback from players.

 

[whitewolf]

I just got home two hours ago and it's 3 AM now. It's been a lonnng week and I'm dead tired, but there is no way I can't post on this thread.

All the following is mostly my point of view with some facts thrown in for good measure. First of all, imo opinion "rack your own" is the best way to go in 9-Ball. "Loser racks" can take forever and a day, and lead to some heated debates. "Winner racks" is the lesser of two evils. Ideally we would have referees racking on all the tables, but that just isn't possible, although it was considered this year. We used neutral rackers on the final day because it was possible, and we had three well qualified people to do that job.

There will NEVER be an easy solution for racking the balls in 9-Ball, mainly because of the open configuration of the rack. The best solution we've come up with is to add a ball and make it Ten Ball. Now you have a solid rack with a full back row. Still the very best players (and breakers) will find a way to make balls with any rack. A lot of people don't know that one of Earl's great talents was figuring out the beat break on any given table. He would practice breaking and work things out prior to his match. His break was not the hardest, just the most effective. One reason why Ralf has had so much success in tournaments is his ability to figure out the proper (best) break on the tables being used. And yet no one talks about his powerful break. It just happens to work real well! Funny huh?

I do happen to like the Delta rack. I think it is the best engineered triangle I've seen so far. Diamond's wood triangle is another good one by the way. And I've come to love the Magic rack. But all these racks can be defeated/overcome by the skills (and talent) of today's top players. There has never been a rack genius like Corey and other players have learned a lot from him, mostly by close observation. Once again, in the game of 9-Ball we may never find a way to achieve a "perfect" rack. One change you can expect to see next year in the Open is that the nine ball will not count on the break in the two bottom corner pockets. That cuts out a lot of shenanigans on the rack.

What happened in the Hot Seat match yesterday, was that I had a difficult time getting the one ball to freeze to the first two balls perfectly. No matter how I racked them it still separated by a hair from one ball behind it. And when I say a hair, it was literally maybe a couple of thousandths of an inch from being frozen. No matter, Mika wasn't happy and I did my best to accommodate him. A big mistake on my part and maybe not the best thing for Mika either. I should have done what Bill Stock (an excellent referee) did in the second match, told him to go ahead and break. I allowed Mika too much leeway and it may have been to his detriment, because he lost any momentum he may have had. Mika appeared out of sorts in this match for whatever reason. I'm not sure what was going on with him, but he displayed negative energy from start to finish. And it wasn't just because of the rack either. A big contrast to the last two years when he was focused and very comfortable on the final day. In spite of all this, the match should have gone hill-hill. In that last rack Mika made some beautiful shots (how about that four ball down the rail!) and then missed a relatively easy shot on the seven ball. He just lost focus on that shot and it cost him - DEARLY!

We did try changing the spot, which will often work, but for whatever reason even that didn't help. Bill and Kenny had just as much trouble racking as I did. To his credit Mika did finish third this year, after two wins. Not so bad, imo. He also won the $1,000 high run award, opening with six perfect run-outs in a match on Thursday evening. The $11,000 he picked up this week should do a lot to soothe the pain of losing to Shane.

I think that it is funny that after all the plugs you have given the Delta Rack, you couldn't get a tight rack with it. On the same note, you have NEVER mentioned using the Sardo Rack again.

I suspect there must be some bad feelings between Barry and Sardo, or something fishy going on. Either that, or everybody is a complete m$#@n.

 

[JarnoV]

Barry did indeed say they would stay rack your own as this year, and that 9 ball in foot pockets will be spotted based on feedback from players.

Cool!

I don't understand why any 9-ball on the break should count, but this is way better than what I saw in some matches in this year's US Open. I guess the players agree with it too so it's not just me and some other people at AZ forum whining.

 

[Island Drive]

I think that it is funny that after all the plugs you have given the Delta Rack, you couldn't get a tight rack with it. On the same note, you have NEVER mentioned using the Sardo Rack again.

I suspect there must be some bad feelings between Barry and Sardo, or something fishy going on. Either that, or everybody is a complete m$#@n.

When you purchase a set of balls, the tolerances are closer to perfect on the high end sets yet even the balls when brand new there is some leeway, I can't remember but for example, centennials may have a 2-3 thousandths difference to be acceptable, whereas a set of mid grade Belgium balls that are half the price would be 5-7 thousandths and still be acceptable to the mfg. I know a pool room owner that would measure every new set before put into play and if the tolerances were off he would not accept the balls. Maybe next year they could bring in new ball sets every two days and then sell the sets when the event was over. These guys break the balls HARD and I'm sure if one were to measure the balls at the beginning of the week and at the end, the numbers would tell, what would be more interesting now that I'm rambling, how about just measuring the ONE ball, poor guy gets BEAT up all week.

One another note, the idea of spotting up the nine if made in the two foot pockets sounds good, takes allot of power to get the nine Up table.

 

[SUPERSTAR]

Is that a fact? Pretty crappy if it were true...:frown:

100% fact.

If it was in use at a tournament they were sponsoring, or at a booth they were exhibiting at, believe me, they were pounding craters into the table before hand.

Just do a search.
Heck, there is a video somewhere of Jeanette Lee rolling a ball through the crater area during a match, and it almost doing a left turn.

Fact is, after the pounding of the craters, you didn't need the rack. ANY rack.
You just put the balls up there and they stayed put.

 

[Aaron_S]

I got a kick out of the comments from Mika and Corey in their post-match interviews.

Mika "Well, Corey's break, as goofy as it is, was working."

Corey "I have a lot of respect for Mika... as a player."

Definitely no love lost there.

 

[Eric.]

No disrespect, but Sardo wasn't a rack.
Sardo was smashing craters into the table when no one was looking, i.e. prepping the table (aka water dropper and pounding the balls into place), so that you could rack the balls without the sardo gizmo on top of it.
That gizmo was all for show.
The craters kept the balls in place.

SS, that guy Whitewolf/Ray Woodford, loves to spout off without having all the facts.

You are right on about the Sardo rack. I won one, and the instructions tell you to do just that to "treat" the rack area. Those craters can wreck havoc on a game like 14.1.


Eric

 

[whitewolf]

When you purchase a set of balls, the tolerances are closer to perfect on the high end sets yet even the balls when brand new there is some leeway, I can't remember but for example, centennials may have a 2-3 thousandths difference to be acceptable, whereas a set of mid grade Belgium balls that are half the price would be 5-7 thousandths and still be acceptable to the mfg. I know a pool room owner that would measure every new set before put into play and if the tolerances were off he would not accept the balls. Maybe next year they could bring in new ball sets every two days and then sell the sets when the event was over. These guys break the balls HARD and I'm sure if one were to measure the balls at the beginning of the week and at the end, the numbers would tell, what would be more interesting now that I'm rambling, how about just measuring the ONE ball, poor guy gets BEAT up all week.

One another note, the idea of spotting up the nine if made in the two foot pockets sounds good, takes allot of power to get the nine Up table.

At home I have Aramith super pros that are at least 5 years old. My Sardo rack gives me a better rack than the Delta rack, every time. Once you push down on the Sardo, say in the US Open, there should be no more complaints that relate to tolerances etc., providing no balls roll off the spot or something. The Sardo Rack TAKES MOST OF THE HUMAN ERROR OUT OF RACKING. Like I said earlier, it's all about money and I believe Barry got a better deal using those STUPID Delta racks.

Vigma balls have tigher tolerance than BiCentennials or Aramiths and are made in China. They play just as well IMHO, even if made out of different material. I know because I have a set of them.

But sponsers are what you have to deal with in tournaments. I am sure that if one were willing to pay $500 for a set of balls the big companies would be willing to make them for the US Open, and others.

 

[jay helfert]

I think that it is funny that after all the plugs you have given the Delta Rack, you couldn't get a tight rack with it. On the same note, you have NEVER mentioned using the Sardo Rack again.

I suspect there must be some bad feelings between Barry and Sardo, or something fishy going on. Either that, or everybody is a complete m$#@n.

It was not because of the rack that the front balls wouldn't freeze. It was something in or under the cloth that was causing the problem. It only takes a minute wrinkle or piece of chalk to mess things up. Often times it is the spot that causes these problems. An old spot can develop imperfections.

This is not a perfect science, racking the balls for 9-Ball. I can usually (maybe 99% of the time) put up a near perfect rack. But two days ago was the exception. I still managed to get all the balls frozen, but the rack was a little high and Mika didn't like that either. He wanted to be sure he could make the corner ball.

The racks that he was unhappy about would have been accepted by most (maybe all other) players. Mika just got very fussy and he may have cost himself with the wasted energy. He could still have made the corner ball if he broke them right. He just never found the "sweet" spot.

 

[SUPERSTAR]

but the rack was a little high and Mika didn't like that either. He wanted to be sure he could make the corner ball.

The racks that he was unhappy about would have been accepted by most (maybe all other) players. Mika just got very fussy and he may have cost himself with the wasted energy. He could still have made the corner ball if he broke them right. He just never found the "sweet" spot.

Maybe he doesn't think he should have to adapt.

A world champion like Mika doesn't know how to hit the balls a little softer? Seriously?
This is like 1st grade, elementary school pool stuff. And he doesn't know it?

Yet, Corey's break, while working better then Mika's is somehow, "GOOFY"

Unbelievable.

 

[UGETTHE6]

Yes, but changing the rules last minute isn't fair. At the players meeting there was no talk of this. And frankly no one has anyhting to say about it except the players. It is b.s. If you are going to do rack your own, two things.

DONT make the 9 count, and DONT touch a ball once you put the balls in the rack. Wiring balls to go off the break is crap, put the balls in the rack, push them up and pull the rack off.

NOW, it is also players responsibility to NOT allow this to happen, so chanllege their rack twice, then the rule was and offical would come over and rack. I saw no one doing this, and frankly alot of people should have.

Raj H. said if he had won the tournament he was going to make a statement that he had just won a racking contest, because until the final 4, it was a racking contest.

I saw a player who wasnt known for their break, make a ball everytime he broke, because he was touching the balls behind the 9. Which makes the wing ball go.

So if they are being ALLOWED to have a racking contest, why not let them continue?

Again, these rules need to be addressed by the players not the AZers. For Berry to NOT allow the players to have a vote on the rack your own rule that was unfair.

Maybe he doesn't think he should have to adapt.

A world champion like Mika doesn't know how to hit the balls a little softer? Seriously?
This is like 1st grade, elementary school pool stuff. And he doesn't know it?

Yet, Corey's break, while working better then Mika's is somehow, "GOOFY"

Unbelievable.

 

[Paul Schofield]

Raj H. said if he had won the tournament he was going to make a statement that he had just won a racking contest, because until the final 4, it was a racking contest.

I saw a player who wasnt known for their break, make a ball everytime he broke, because he was touching the balls behind the 9. Which makes the wing ball go.

So if they are being ALLOWED to have a racking contest, why not let them continue?

It just goes on and on, year after year.

There has been no simple method found that simultaneously protects the integrity of the front end of our games and keeps the “ball on the break requirement”. Keep the ball and you own all the crap that goes along with it.

I have a second suggestion. Just get it out in the open and let everyone do what ever they want to do. Everyone brings their own personal racking gadget (Magic, Sardo, Delta, etc.), pattern rack, rack your own, finger and finagle the balls, no rack checking, break and go. Make it all legal. This is better and more honest than what is happening now.

 

[ironman]

I thought I heard him say "goofy break"?! I was hoping I heard wrong. If so, Corey outclassed him by not responding and still relating how he respected Mika as a player. Well done Corey! Keeping your cool is what got you this far.

his only 2 friends stayed home trying to do a better job with his little brother