Man charged for trading ivory

[Blue Hog ridr]

I know, I was thinking about you when I typed that. You and the late Art Cantando are the only 2 I believe. I don't have a problem with sport hunting, its just not for me.
When I hunted, I did so for the meat only. I didn't enjoy the hunt, nor the kill. It was just something I had to do at the time out of necessity. That and good home made sausage gives me big wood.

 

[Mr Hoppe]

You should not forget that Joe is a professional ivory dealer. If after the Feds monitored him for several years, this is all that they could come up with, to me that means that he has a very clean operation. I would imagine that he has had numerous requests to ship whole tusks and bulk ivory out of the country at far above market pricing, and he is not facing any charges on that order.

I'm going to guess that at least half of the more successful cue makers have shipped similar cues containing some amount of ivory out of the country, but they have not been caught. Joe got cought on this because he is a professional ivory dealer, and as such, he is being watched. This is probably the smallest offence that a man in his business could experience. I say cudos to him for staying as above-board as he has.

As a side note, I wish the days of elephant ivory in cues (or anything else) would end. There are many natural substitutes, and a couple of synthetic ones as well. Anyone who thinks that they can tell the difference in hit between a cue with an ivory joint and one with a synthetic ivory joint is full of crap, plain and simple. In fact, several cue makers actually sleeve the joint tennon in phenolic before applying the ivory, essentially as a veneer. Can you tell that from the hit as well? I think not.

 

[Scott Lee]

Well Mr Hoppe...I'm gonna guess there are MANY of us who can tell the difference in the hit of an ALL-Ivory joint, versus a synthetic substitute. Just because you can't tell, doesn't mean nobody can. This entire argument is total bs anyway, because, for the 3rd and last time, THERE'S ALREADY MORE LEGAL IVORY STOCKPILED IN THIS COUNTRY THAN WILL EVER BE USED BY THE CUE INDUSTRY.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Anyone who thinks that they can tell the difference in hit between a cue with an ivory joint and one with a synthetic ivory joint is full of crap, plain and simple. In fact, several cue makers actually sleeve the joint tennon in phenolic before applying the ivory, essentially as a veneer. Can you tell that from the hit as well? I think not.

 

[Mr Hoppe]

Well Mr Hoppe...I'm gonna guess there are MANY of us who can tell the difference in the hit of an ALL-Ivory joint, versus a synthetic substitute. Just because you can't tell, doesn't mean nobody can. snip...
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott,
I certainly don't know all there is to know, but I do make cues and I'm a pretty fair player as well, and I'm willing to put my $ where my mouth is.

I will supply 5 cues, each with the joint covered. You hit with each, and get one guess to tell me which one has the ivory joint. We each put up $500 and winner takes home the cash and "I told you so" rights. I believe that you travel frequently Scott, so if you are in the Chicago area, this is challenge that is open to you should you choose to accept.

To all others, sorry for the tangent in the conversation.

Respectfully,
Mr H

 

[Piercyexclusive]

Wow...... Something that started "with man goes to jail for ivory sale" and ends up as " can you or can't you feel the hit is ivory" is pretty funny how sidetracked people can be. I might be guilty of this to.

 

[powerlineman80]

Please everyone dont shoot me as I have no clue what I'm talking about because I've never shot with a cue w/Ivory joint or ferrule.

Am I wrong on this? Wouldnt Ivory crack eventually over the years because its like bone? I'm sure I'm wrong though......lol

Is the Ivory substitutes stronger than Ivory and look whiter? I've only seen a handful in person that had actual Ivory in it so I'm not expert.

I getting a cue built right now and did NOT want Ivory, I guess its just knowing an animal died in some way but of course so did a tree, etc. to get my wood.

JMHO

 

[KRJ]

Hmmmm

Scott,
I certainly don't know all there is to know, but I do make cues and I'm a pretty fair player as well, and I'm willing to put my $ where my mouth is.

I will supply 5 cues, each with the joint covered. You hit with each, and get one guess to tell me which one has the ivory joint. We each put up $500 and winner takes home the cash and "I told you so" rights. I believe that you travel frequently Scott, so if you are in the Chicago area, this is challenge that is open to you should you choose to accept.

***********

I want a few hundred of this action and I'm in the Chicago area. Ivory is a cosmetic enhancement, like woman who wear jewelery....guys like it because it "sure is purty".... I think Scott is great, but he done gonna lose this here bet I do believe. SO, can I have half this bet ???

 

[KRJ]

Hmmm

If ivory is illegal then people shouldn't deal in it but two things occur to me.

The tips for pool cues are made from the hides of dead cows, water buffalo, elk etc. I don't hear anybody howling about that.

A young kid was recently murdered in my town who was related to a Missouri football player and in town to watch a Missouri football game. All 6 of the thugs who participated in the murder had criminal records, one guy had a conviction for drug trafficing and weapons in 2008 and was back on the street. Given a choice of who to lock up I would rather see the violent sociopaths locked up than they guy making pool cues from ivory.

Well, this is just plain silly. Really, you want violent criminals locked up?? Ok, so lets leave everyone else alone, the drug smugglers, the bank robbers, the insurance fraud dudes, Bernie Madoff, drunk drivers, burglars, peeping toms, speeders, Internet scam artists who pray on the elderly, tax evaders, etc.etc.

I' don't mind an argument, but it has to be logical. Just because somebody is arrested, it does not mean that a sociopath goes free....Geez..... This is not one or the other...it is both. You break the law, you pay the price. Cops don't take calls, and then sorry, if it is not a super violent crime, we can't get involved.....come on.. In the day I had to take calls for loose dog in the neighborhood, loud music, somebody parked illegally... I couldn't say tough toe nails, go to hell now could I???

 

[KRJ]

Hmmm

Likewise, if you stopped using oxygen it wouldn't be an issue. Both are from the Earth and both will always be used.

Stupid Post If I Must Say !!!

 

[KRJ]

Hmmm

Agreed on that, but like I said before as a meat eater he purchases food that is from a slaughtered/killed animal that may eventually become extinct as well. I just don't like the comparison at all he is using, but that is just my opinion.

Ummmm, No,, cows and chickens are not on the extinction list, nor will they ever be extinct, unless mad cow disease comes back with a vengeance. Otherwise, you are comparing apples and organges here...

I don't believe he ever admitted to eating meat as well, just for the record !!!!

 

[mair23]

You should not forget that Joe is a professional ivory dealer. If after the Feds monitored him for several years, this is all that they could come up with, to me that means that he has a very clean operation...........................

Joe got cought on this because he is a professional ivory dealer, and as such, he is being watched. This is probably the smallest offence that a man in his business could experience. I say cudos to him for staying as above-board as he has.

Let me ask one thing here.

If he is as professional a dealer as many of you think, let me know why he didn´t have CITES-Papers for his ivory used.
The only chance for him to get and have legal ivory is with CITES-Papers, in that way he could have sold them as well.
He only would have to get the papers to ship his official legal ivory out of the states, and that normaly should be no problem.

At least that´s what CITES is saying, if his ivory was legal.

Eric"h" ------- only my 2 cents

 

[Mr Hoppe]

Let me ask one thing here.

If he is as professional a dealer as many of you think, let me know why he didn´t have CITES-Papers for his ivory used.
The only chance for him to get and have legal ivory is with CITES-Papers, in that way he could have sold them as well.
He only would have to get the papers to ship his official legal ivory out of the states, and that normaly should be no problem.

At least that´s what CITES is saying, if his ivory was legal.

Eric"h" ------- only my 2 cents

When a person processes ivory for component parts, like Joe does, the CITES papers for a particular tusk cannot be directly linked to each part. In other words, if he has proper paperwork on a purchased tusk, and that tusk gets cut into 20 butt caps, 15 joint blanks, and 35 ferrules, and then each one of those parts gets put into a box with 100 other such parts and is used in building 10 cues per month, what is he supposed to do when asked to produce the proper paperwork for the ivory joint used on the cue that he shipped out a week ago last Thursday? Each part does not have it's own serial number...

I am not an expert in CITES, but my understanding is that even if his ivory is legal pre-ban material, it is still illegal to ship it outside of the US, and I think that is what happened in this case. The three cues that were shipped to the UK had ivory ferrules, joints, and butt caps.

 

[supergreenman]

Ummmm, No,, cows and chickens are not on the extinction list, nor will they ever be extinct, unless mad cow disease comes back with a vengeance. Otherwise, you are comparing apples and organges here...

I don't believe he ever admitted to eating meat as well, just for the record !!!!

For the record. I'm not a vegetarian, nor do I think I need to be a vegetarian to be "entitled" to stand up and say the ivory trade is wrong.

I do enjoy a nice juicy steak. Especially cooked on the BBQ covered in a cocoa/coffee beer rub. A couple of weeks ago I polished off 90+ chicken wings to do my part in raising $22,000 for a local charity. My team raised $800, the 2 of us ate 189 wings in a hour.

Chickens aren't covered by C.I.T.E.S, I don't have a problem eating them.

 

[mair23]

When a person processes ivory for component parts, like Joe does, the CITES papers for a particular tusk cannot be directly linked to each part. In other words, if he has proper paperwork on a purchased tusk, and that tusk gets cut into 20 butt caps, 15 joint blanks, and 35 ferrules, and then each one of those parts gets put into a box with 100 other such parts and is used in building 10 cues per month, what is he supposed to do when asked to produce the proper paperwork for the ivory joint used on the cue that he shipped out a week ago last Thursday? Each part does not have it's own serial number...

I am not an expert in CITES, but my understanding is that even if his ivory is legal pre-ban material, it is still illegal to ship it outside of the US, and I think that is what happened in this case. The three cues that were shipped to the UK had ivory ferrules, joints, and butt caps.

I am not a CITES specialist, too, but I heared it´s at least no problem to take things with you.
But you need to have a document for it, you will get from CITES if you can document pre bann ivory.

So if his documents were in order, he would have get a paper from CITES that would allow him to bring it out or in.
If that would be possible only by person in a plane or by postal shipping, too - I don´t know.
But I think there is the difference if its Part A,B,C or D of CITES, you know.

Eric"h" -------- only what I heared about it

 

[Spimp13]

Ummmm, No,, cows and chickens are not on the extinction list, nor will they ever be extinct, unless mad cow disease comes back with a vengeance. Otherwise, you are comparing apples and organges here...

I don't believe he ever admitted to eating meat as well, just for the record !!!!

Ding fries are done....

I don't believe in psychics and you cannot predict what animals will and will not become extinct in the future. I only used those two animals as an example as there are many more animals we eat than just those two.

I made an assumption on his eating meat and good golly miss Molly I was right...go figure. We just had a difference of opinion on the comparison no harm no foul. I am not going to explain my viewpoint again as this is beating a dead horse beyond the 15 minute time frame called fun. Supergreenman this post is not directed to you at all. You have your viewpoint and I have mine, no bigge.

 

[Mr Hoppe]

I am not a CITES specialist, too, but I heared it´s at least no problem to take things with you.
But you need to have a document for it, you will get from CITES if you can document pre bann ivory.

So if his documents were in order, he would have get a paper from CITES that would allow him to bring it out or in.
If that would be possible only by person in a plane or by postal shipping, too - I don´t know.
But I think there is the difference if its Part A,B,C or D of CITES, you know.

Eric"h" -------- only what I heared about it

He wasn't taking them on a plane with him, he shipped them outside of the US for sale. Entirely different scenario. And again, it's almost impossible to provide proper documents for component parts since they do not carry individual serial numbers. How could he possibly tell which documented tusk section the joint or ferrules came from?

 

[fcee06]

It's called Coltan.

Yep thats it!! Thanks

 

[Celtic]

For the record since a few slow people don't quite grasp the point of things.

There is a huge difference between the killing of an animal as a source of food and the killing of an animal, taking the skin or tusks, and leaving the meat to rot, which is what is done with poached elephants.

Yeah I eat meat, I also hunt deer, birds, elk, and other animals but I always eat that which I kill and never hunt without the intention to eat the animal I am killing. Once you kill just for the sake of killing or a trophy you are not on the same page as killing an animal as a source of food. Humans need to eat and we evolved as omnivores so a portion of our diet being meat is both natural and optimal for the health of a homo sapien.

Killing an elephant for ivory is comparing apples to hand grenades.

 

[MahnaMahna]

For the record since a few slow people don't quite grasp the point of things.

There is a huge difference between the killing of an animal as a source of food and the killing of an animal, taking the skin or tusks, and leaving the meat to rot, which is what is done with poached elephants.

Yeah I eat meat, I also hunt deer, birds, elk, and other animals but I always eat that which I kill and never hunt without the intention to eat the animal I am killing. Once you kill just for the sake of killing or a trophy you are not on the same page as killing an animal as a source of food. Humans need to eat and we evolved as omnivores so a portion of our diet being meat is both natural and optimal for the health of a homo sapien.

Killing an elephant for ivory is comparing apples to hand grenades.

I am pro-hunting, pro guns, and am glad you eat what you kill, as I would if I hunted (which I hopefully will one day).

Elephant poaching is wrong for many reasons.

But how is being an omnivore a good reason for hunting? Couldn't you buy the same, if not higher quality, meats from a store or butcher?

 

[Celtic]

But how is being an omnivore a good reason for hunting? Couldn't you buy the same, if not higher quality, meats from a store or butcher?

it is simply a good reason to not be anti-hunting if one eats meat.

Whether you hunt or buy the food from the local supermarket an animal had to be killed for you to eat that meal.

I can buy the meat and have someone else kill the animal or I can kill it and butcher it myself. I do both, more store bought then game I hunt. But either way eating meat as humans do does require the killing of animals.