Fast Eddies's Case in the hustler.

John the ones I have seen that were advertised in the earlier Brunswick catalogs from the Mid-1950's back, were made very nice, the stitching was good and well done and the leather was thick, and this is exactly how you identify the earlier Brunswick cases from the Crap made later. The problem I see is that the standard design was carried into the 1960's when the quality began to suffer, those that were Leather at all were flimsy on a cardboard frame. Finally toward the end of the 1960's there was no Leather in cases at all just a cheap vinyl over Cardboard.

I think that since more of the Cheap (Most Likely) imports have survived because they are not as old, many people mistake these cases for higher quality cases that were made by Brunswick in the past.

I have most of Brunswick's Catalogs from 1915 to date and I also have some that are older.

In closing the Brunswick company of today is no help, much of their documentation either was thrown away or lost. This is a major problem when trying to identify Brunswick cues and cases from the 1950's back.

Based upon research I have done on this subject.

Good info once again Craig.

It may bear mentioning once again that pool/billiard equment for sale
prior to the boom launched by "The Hustler" was, mostly, low in price
and high in quality. All the reasons for that situation would be a very
long discussion indeed. But mostly it was because the biz of pool was
at a VERY low ebb.

IMHO - you must keep in mind, in those days, people just simply did
not have the emotional investment in the 'tools of the trade' like so
many do today. Perhaps a '63 Corvette is "sloppy" compared to a 2003
model - but I sure wouldn't mind having one.

Dale
 
John the ones I have seen that were advertised in the earlier Brunswick catalogs from the Mid-1950's back, were made very nice, the stitching was good and well done and the leather was thick, and this is exactly how you identify the earlier Brunswick cases from the Crap made later. The problem I see is that the standard design was carried into the 1960's when the quality began to suffer, those that were Leather at all were flimsy on a cardboard frame. Finally toward the end of the 1960's there was no Leather in cases at all just a cheap vinyl over Cardboard.

I think that since more of the Cheap (Most Likely) imports have survived because they are not as old, many people mistake these cases for higher quality cases that were made by Brunswick in the past.

I have most of Brunswick's Catalogs from 1915 to date and I also have some that are older.

In closing the Brunswick company of today is no help, much of their documentation either was thrown away or lost. This is a major problem when trying to identify Brunswick cues and cases from the 1950's back.

Based upon research I have done on this subject.

I had a Brunswick case with a 1970's import Brunswick cue that looked like the old cases, had a leather lid strap, but the body was vinyl - and it was junk. I only bought the cue to get the case, then of course I regretted it.

Live and learn.

Chris
 
Tate and Pdcue, I completely agree with your posts, both your posts go hand in hand with what I have seen.

In the end all I can say is that it is a shame that so much information concerning Pool cues and cases made by Brunswick has some been lost or not shared with the general public. I also wish more people like Tate, and forum member runscott would share what they have found. Maybe one of these days I will have the time to share more information by putting up a website and posting all the catalogs and others items I have accumulated.

Thanks for the additional information and idea's guy's!!
 
I did contribute from the beginning of the thread. The cues from Portugal were called Sampaio (my spelling of them was also wrong). They were "inexpensive" imports, Don Shimel of J&S Sales was the second generation importer and he explained them to me over lunch one year. Whether they were sold cheaply in the USA or not is another story.

And yes, I interpret something as an attack when it's phrased that way. I offered you my observations based on my study of these cases. That's not enough for you to back off a little and instead you start your next to last response with 'you know what happens when you assume?'

THIS discussion is about the case used in the Hustler. There are only a few of us on the board who have studied them with any type of effort. You might be one of them. I study them as relates to their actual CONSTRUCTION and workmanship before I care about their actual birthplace.

I don't care if they came from St. Louis, New York, or Timbuktu. I am interested in how they were constructed.

And once again because you have forgotten what I said a few posts ago, I consider the ones I have seen to be of "inferior" quality BASED on my observations of the ACTUAL cases. Now as I said there probably were versions of these cases which were made with high quality. In fact I am pretty certain based on my research that there were "original" versions of this case made for flyrods and shotguns which were made in the USA by reputable craftsmen.

I do NOT think that ANY of the Brunswick/AE Schmidt cases I have seen fit into that category. I think that those cases were made in a factory environment, either in the USA or elsewhere with no particular attention paid to making them high quality. I think that they are cheaply made copies of similar cases.

Sorry if that OPINION bursts your bubble and seems to devalue the cases you own. I wouldn't hold that opinion if I didn't STUDY the cases we are talking about from a cue case maker's perspective.

It's not about an "infomercial" you made some statements that are assumptive at best with no facts to back them up. As you can see as early as 1908 Brunswick was selling two-piece cues and leather cases to go with them. They were selling these "Hustler" cases well before the movie came out. You have no clue who made them or what country they were made in. Neither do I.

I just don't look at cue cases with any sort of romantic selective memory. I look at how they were actually built and go from there.

Reading is fun - try it some time.

OP post:

"Anyone have one? or know what kind they are, Pic? Thanks."

Notice the absolute lack of reference to construction?
Instead of taking your usual tack of trying to bulldoze this thread,
If you want to "discuss" construction, why don't you start a thread
about construction.

At the risk of re-repeating info.

Delmar Phelps
Purchased a Sapio 8 point with the MOP 'Shield', from A E Schmidt,
PRIOR to 1961. Paid an ammount in excess of the price of a Rambow.

Dale<who has constructed a thing or two in his time>
 
Reading is fun - try it some time.

OP post:

"Anyone have one? or know what kind they are, Pic? Thanks."

Notice the absolute lack of reference to construction?
Instead of taking your usual tack of trying to bulldoze this thread,
If you want to "discuss" construction, why don't you start a thread
about construction.

At the risk of re-repeating info.

Delmar Phelps
Purchased a Sapio 8 point with the MOP 'Shield', from A E Schmidt,
PRIOR to 1961. Paid an ammount in excess of the price of a Rambow.

Dale<who has constructed a thing or two in his time>

How about discussion is fun try IT sometime. When someone asks about something like this they usually don't mind a discussion ensuing.

Frankly, I don't much care what you think, about anything. I will feel free to discuss any aspect of cue case making in any fashion I choose to.

Don't like it? I don't care.

Thank you to Tate and Craig for their information. And privately I have been given the contact information of a man who worked for Brunswick for 70ish years whom I will be contacting to talk about cases and see what he knows. Thank you very much to the person who shared that information with me.

Have a good day.
 
Tate and Pdcue, I completely agree with your posts, both your posts go hand in hand with what I have seen.

In the end all I can say is that it is a shame that so much information concerning Pool cues and cases made by Brunswick has some been lost or not shared with the general public. I also wish more people like Tate, and forum member runscott would share what they have found. Maybe one of these days I will have the time to share more information by putting up a website and posting all the catalogs and others items I have accumulated.

Thanks for the additional information and idea's guy's!!

I hear you... Looking forward to that website:).
I suspect info on cues/cases is long gone.

Untill the Great Internet Revolution of the 90s, you couldn't even get
information about Brunswick Tables. In the late 70s, when I started
'dabbling' in antique tables I was amazed to learn Brunswick had a
corporate historian.

They did send me a packet of info about "obsolete" tables as they
described them. It was a fistfull of Xeroxed sheets of old tables.
Looked to be about the third copy-of-a-copy - thumbnail sized schetches
with names - I was estatic.

Maybe we should check to see if they still have a historian:)

Dale<mild equipment buff>
 
not taking sides, just giving info...

I will be happy if someone provides me with actual catalog scans showing the exact case Felson carried to prove which company sold it. My first point is that since the cue was a Rambow, we should start there to try to find whose cases Rambow used. Again, not taking sides, but since Rambow worked for Brunswick and not A.E. Schmidt, it would seem to make sense that it was Brunswick. Also, with Mosconi as advisor on the movie, and Mosconi was sponsored by Brunswick, that would make more sense. HOWEVER... this is why I am not taking sides. Look at Brunswick, A.E. Schmidt, and many smaller company's catalogs during any time period and you will see many identical items sold by many companies as their own. Early on, Brunswick had to have had some cases specifically made for them for at least two models, the 360 and the Vulcanite, because the shaft and butt were not equal lengths on these models so the cases, which were round leather tubes, had to be longer for these. But as far as the rectangular case goes, why don't we just wait until catalogs surface from the same year during the hustler era and see if they show a difference in cases. For some items, like cue cutters, the model Brunswick sold was slightly differentiated by the manufacturer although inspection shows the same maker had to have made both. Hope this helps and does not get anyone upset guys.
 
to be fair.....

Just to be fair, Rambow probably did not work for Brunswick any longer during the Hustler era, and at one time his "Hub Cue" was sold by J.E. Came of Boston as well as Brunswick. Also, Rambow was in Chicago where Brunswick was headquartered, not in St. Louis. Later.....
 
I will be happy if someone provides me with actual catalog scans showing the exact case Felson carried to prove which company sold it. My first point is that since the cue was a Rambow, we should start there to try to find whose cases Rambow used. Again, not taking sides, but since Rambow worked for Brunswick and not A.E. Schmidt, it would seem to make sense that it was Brunswick. Also, with Mosconi as advisor on the movie, and Mosconi was sponsored by Brunswick, that would make more sense. HOWEVER... this is why I am not taking sides. Look at Brunswick, A.E. Schmidt, and many smaller company's catalogs during any time period and you will see many identical items sold by many companies as their own. Early on, Brunswick had to have had some cases specifically made for them for at least two models, the 360 and the Vulcanite, because the shaft and butt were not equal lengths on these models so the cases, which were round leather tubes, had to be longer for these. But as far as the rectangular case goes, why don't we just wait until catalogs surface from the same year during the hustler era and see if they show a difference in cases. For some items, like cue cutters, the model Brunswick sold was slightly differentiated by the manufacturer although inspection shows the same maker had to have made both. Hope this helps and does not get anyone upset guys.

Look at TATE's posts and check out TATE's site.

The cues being Rambows doesn't have much, if anything, to do with
the case. Herman didn't "use" anybodys cases. Tho it would be
interesting to know if he sold cases - I've never heard any indication
he did.

BTW - the case is a Brunswick product.

Dale<don't make me stop this car>
 
Tate's page

....yeah I see that, but what I was wanting was to see if someone had an A.E. Schmidt catalog of the same year so that we can see the cases side by side. You don't think Rambow offered cases? I do. I guess I need to distill my point down to this. If you have a Fellini case sold by Brunswick and A.E. Schmidt, it is still a Fellini case unless Fellini put a pinstripe or a smiley face on it for Brunswick and not for A.E. Schmidt. My personal opinion, because Mosconi had a Rambow made for Gleason (as previously seen on Dick Abbot's website) he probably arranged for professional looking equipment to be supplied to the actors and he was under Brunswick at the time. Just opinion based on logic. Maybe Newman had his own A.E. Schmidt case but I doubt it.
 
Just to be fair, Rambow probably did not work for Brunswick any longer during the Hustler era, and at one time his "Hub Cue" was sold by J.E. Came of Boston as well as Brunswick. Also, Rambow was in Chicago where Brunswick was headquartered, not in St. Louis. Later.....

I don't think his hub cue was sold by them, I suspect that they may have copied the design, and that they started producing similar models before Herman's failed attempt to start the Superior Cue MFG. and Billiard Supply Company in 1921, I would doubt that it was after he was awarded Patent Right's and then turned them over to Brunswick in 1925. The exact date that Herman invented / designed the concept of the HUB Cue was before either of these dates.

Herman was awarded his patent for the Hub design in 1925, but it was applied for in 1923.

Until firm proof surfaces I suspect that J.E. Came copied Rambows design, and I also suspect that it stopped do so after the Patent was awarded.

JIMO
 
....yeah I see that, but what I was wanting was to see if someone had an A.E. Schmidt catalog of the same year so that we can see the cases side by side. You don't think Rambow offered cases? I do. I guess I need to distill my point down to this. If you have a Fellini case sold by Brunswick and A.E. Schmidt, it is still a Fellini case unless Fellini put a pinstripe or a smiley face on it for Brunswick and not for A.E. Schmidt. My personal opinion, because Mosconi had a Rambow made for Gleason (as previously seen on Dick Abbot's website) he probably arranged for professional looking equipment to be supplied to the actors and he was under Brunswick at the time. Just opinion based on logic. Maybe Newman had his own A.E. Schmidt case but I doubt it.

The closest A.E. Schmidt catalog I have is a Fall & Winter Catalog from 1963 - 1964, in this catalog there are no cases even similar to what we are talking about. All cases are either Box type, or Bag type and they are made from hard plastic or vinyl.

But, by looking at this catalog another mystery has been solved, many people have asked who made the Harold Worst cue's, well they were made by Aesco Cues or A.E.Schmidt, in fact there is a photo of Harold advertising them for them. So I guess I should look back through all the other old catalog's I have no telling what else I missed.
 
....yeah I see that, but what I was wanting was to see if someone had an A.E. Schmidt catalog of the same year so that we can see the cases side by side. You don't think Rambow offered cases? I do. I guess I need to distill my point down to this. If you have a Fellini case sold by Brunswick and A.E. Schmidt, it is still a Fellini case unless Fellini put a pinstripe or a smiley face on it for Brunswick and not for A.E. Schmidt. My personal opinion, because Mosconi had a Rambow made for Gleason (as previously seen on Dick Abbot's website) he probably arranged for professional looking equipment to be supplied to the actors and he was under Brunswick at the time. Just opinion based on logic. Maybe Newman had his own A.E. Schmidt case but I doubt it.

Why EXACTLY do you think Heman sold cases?

BTW - your opinion is based on conjecture, not logic.

Mr Hoppe, are you out there?

Dale<part time conjecturer>
 
I would like to buy your prototype cases if in your opinion they are close to the design and comparable in quality to the other cases that you made for me over the last few years

i would prefer your improvements on the inside,if it appears like the old hustler case which I used to think was made by Brunswick

I don't understand how people keep criticizing John or his cases,I have bought several and like the cases and the service

Dean
 
The closest A.E. Schmidt catalog I have is a Fall & Winter Catalog from 1963 - 1964, in this catalog there are no cases even similar to what we are talking about. All cases are either Box type, or Bag type and they are made from hard plastic or vinyl.

But, by looking at this catalog another mystery has been solved, many people have asked who made the Harold Worst cue's, well they were made by Aesco Cues or A.E.Schmidt, in fact there is a photo of Harold advertising them for them. So I guess I should look back through all the other old catalog's I have no telling what else I missed.

It's in the 1957 AE Schmidt catalog I have but the details are skimpy because the printing is so poor (one color) it's like a black and white comic stip - it looks like the same case as the movie to me because of the extra tooling besides the lines - which is the main difference beftween the Brunswick case and the AE Schmidt case. I would say it's the AE Schmidt case.

Chris
 
It's in the 1957 AE Schmidt catalog I have but the details are skimpy because the printing is so poor (one color) it's like a black and white comic stip - it looks like the same case as the movie to me because of the extra tooling besides the lines - which is the main difference beftween the Brunswick case and the AE Schmidt case. I would say it's the AE Schmidt case.

Chris


It could be Chris, but they certainly stopped selling them by late 1963. I also suspect that the case could have been purchased when the cues were picked up. When Mosconi took Gleason and Newman to meet Rambow, Herman was working for the Keefe & Hamer who sold tables, cues and accessories, and that is where his shop was set up.

There are some many possibilities were the case came from we may never know for certain, I think your idea is as good as any.

Take care buddy.
 
It's in the 1957 AE Schmidt catalog I have but the details are skimpy because the printing is so poor (one color) it's like a black and white comic stip - it looks like the same case as the movie to me because of the extra tooling besides the lines - which is the main difference beftween the Brunswick case and the AE Schmidt case. I would say it's the AE Schmidt case.

Chris

The plot thickens!

All this great info just because of one innocent question.

Chris and manwon - is it about time for a 'memorabillia' show.

Dale
 
I would like to buy your prototype cases if in your opinion they are close to the design and comparable in quality to the other cases that you made for me over the last few years

i would prefer your improvements on the inside,if it appears like the old hustler case which I used to think was made by Brunswick

I don't understand how people keep criticizing John or his cases,I have bought several and like the cases and the service

Dean

IMHO - I don't think anybody is criticizing his cases.

Dale
 
That's why I didn't take sides

Chris, if the tooling has some distinct feature then you could likely be right. And as far as cases go, I just don't see why a cuemaker WOULDN'T sell a case with a cue. And yes that's just my opinion as I already conjectured, and I don't really care one way or another. As far as Hub cues go Craig, I bought two that were sold on ebay together for a buy-it-now price of $700 years ago. The distinctive butt caps, bumpers, screws, and unusual thick braided twine wraps are identical; one has a J.E. Came stamp on it, and the other has what looks like the outline of BBC eagle decal, and the cues came together. Wierd. What is really unique is that one of them is HICKORY with the same look and patina as a nice antique golf club shaft.. it is the only hickory cue that I have ever seen and I have seen 35 collections... the other hub cue is ebony.
Craig, I have seen several hub cues with no decal but the OUTLINE of a BBC-shaped decal. You think maybe Rambow put his own decal on and they were inferior quality and came off???? Interesting case note: I know an old time table mechanic who has a Felson style case but it is intricately hand-tooled.
 
Chris, if the tooling has some distinct feature then you could likely be right. And as far as cases go, I just don't see why a cuemaker WOULDN'T sell a case with a cue. And yes that's just my opinion as I already conjectured, and I don't really care one way or another. As far as Hub cues go Craig, I bought two that were sold on ebay together for a buy-it-now price of $700 years ago. The distinctive butt caps, bumpers, screws, and unusual thick braided twine wraps are identical; one has a J.E. Came stamp on it, and the other has what looks like the outline of BBC eagle decal, and the cues came together. Wierd. What is really unique is that one of them is HICKORY with the same look and patina as a nice antique golf club shaft.. it is the only hickory cue that I have ever seen and I have seen 35 collections... the other hub cue is ebony.
Craig, I have seen several hub cues with no decal but the OUTLINE of a BBC-shaped decal. You think maybe Rambow put his own decal on and they were inferior quality and came off???? Interesting case note: I know an old time table mechanic who has a Felson style case but it is intricately hand-tooled.


I'm pretty sure Rambow made them when he was working on his own or even for Brunswick and they were stamped and sold as a re-brand. Seems to me all the pool table makers felt a need to offer a full line of accessories.

Here's a Hub of mine with the O.L. Briggs stamp - the cue is identical to the Rambow Hub including the bell ferrule and all the ivory parts.

Can you show some pics of your J.E. Came stamped hub?
 

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