ABP boycotts Berhman's event

[JB Cases]

With the amount of bonafide multi-millionaires on this forum one has to ask themselves why none of them individually or as a group are stepping up to make pro pool successful?

The PGA famously had the backing and help of Ralph Wannamaker of the Wannamaker department stores (IIRC from reading the PGA history)

I guess there must be some underlying reason why no one wants to back the pros as a group?

Individually any of them can get staked for a 10k TAR match.

 

[JCIN]

Congratulations to the ABP and all of it's members.
I wish all of them the best of luck and hope that the folks who put on the Derby CC will put on a tournament in it's place.
This is way overdue.
If Mr. Behrman has lost money so many years on this venue, like he says he has, then it is past time for someone to step in and relieve him of the responsibility, and the financial drain.

I think people just don't get it....NO ONE IS TAKING OVER THE OPEN IF BARRY STOPS. Mark Griffin, Greg Sullivan, Allen Hopkins or Mike Zuglan are not waiting in the wings to step in and take over if Barry throws in the towel. The only guy who would try to run a competing event at the same time as the open is Charlie Williams. And when you have a promoter as a leader of of a players organization it has a real funny smell of conflict of interest.

If and when the Open does go away someone might buy the name and do a 96 player field with 20k added but thats about it. After talking to a few players the feeling I get from comments I heard such as "That's nonsense" and "Those guys didnt tell me about any boycott" leads me to believe this decision is likely to fracture this group before it ever gets off the ground.

I don't see Barry going away. He'll fire back and be on the phones to players calling in markers and reminding people who has been paying them for 30+ years and probably half or more of those guys on the list will end up playing. I suspect that the ones who do follow through with the boycott will get more than they bargained for such as a revocation of paid entries for former champions or maybe even Barry barring any active boycotters from future events. The hammer swings both ways.

Also Johnny and Charlie are not the universally loved charismatic leaders that small movements like this traditionally need to hold a group together. Everyone has seen this movie before and more than a few will go along for the ride until it costs them something personally. The only way this particular group can survive and flourish is to have their own complete tour. They should just take 16 guys, call it a tour, buy a truck and four tables and eat what they kill. But that is a hell of a lot more work than just showing up and playing.

 

[JCIN]

I would like to see the ABP sponsor their own "North American Open " or whatever name, tournament this year.
If you take the $500.00 per player x 256 players which the tournament has had no problem filling lately, thats $128,000.00. {Paid ahead}
You will need to have all money paid for entry at least 2 months ahead of time and make it a first come first in basis after that. The only way to get an entry after the field is filled is to buy one from a player.
Add vendor booth rentals, concessions, discounted spectator tickets for buying ahead and take your futures into your own hands gentlemen.
Take the "in hand" money and get everything set up and it will happen. People don't come to see promoters, they come to see the players and their friends.
I can't imagine that Greg Sullivan and company will not get involved in this.
The worst case scenario is that no one but the players shows up and you are all out 500.00. The same as you would have been at any other tournament.
The best case scenario is that you will decide your future.
I have some other ideas if anyone from the organisation would like to contact me. {I will talk to anyone who is legitimate , but if you just want to tell me how stupid I am, lets save ourselves the trouble.}
If it were me and with all the previous problems I would not waste any more time expecting a different outcome.
I think it is time to move on and see what it is like to be the first one to count the money.

You have to remember that you are talking about 20-30 pro's at most here. Despite the rhetoric of the list on their website.

The thought of UPA part 2 doesnt have a whole lot of people jumping up to help create events right now.

I agree that if the ABP wants as much control as they claim then the only way to get it is to produce their own events. Which may be the entire plan. There is a promoter on the board.

 

[JCIN]

With the amount of bonafide multi-millionaires on this forum one has to ask themselves why none of them individually or as a group are stepping up to make pro pool successful?

The PGA famously had the backing and help of Ralph Wannamaker of the Wannamaker department stores (IIRC from reading the PGA history)

I guess there must be some underlying reason why no one wants to back the pros as a group?

Individually any of them can get staked for a 10k TAR match.

In a TAR match you have a very precise idea of risk vs reward. You know what you get if you win or lose. You can make all your calculations about that risk before hand because you know all of the factors involved. A tour is just another animal all together. Also do you think people would hand me $20K if they didnt trust me? Now find someone you trust with a million or so who also has the capability to successfully run a tour.

Then when you find that person they have to do something that no one has ever been able to do. Create a model for a profitable pool tour. Millionaires dont get to be millionaires by pissing away money on half baked ideas. If someone had a legit verifiable business plan that could stand up to scrutiny and still show a means to be profitable I think it would have a chance at getting funded. But so far no one has invented that yet.

 

[JB Cases]

In a TAR match you have a very precise idea of risk vs reward. You know what you get if you win or lose. You can make all your calculations about that risk before hand because you know all of the factors involved. A tour is just another animal all together. Also do you think people would hand me $20K if they didnt trust me? Now find someone you trust with a million or so who also has the capability to successfully run a tour.

Then when you find that person they have to do something that no one has ever been able to do. Create a model for a profitable pool tour. Millionaires dont get to be millionaires by pissing away money on half baked ideas. If someone had a legit verifiable business plan that could stand up to scrutiny and still show a means to be profitable I think it would have a chance at getting funded. But so far no one has invented that yet.

My question was rhetorical.

 

[JB Cases]

You have to remember that you are talking about 20-30 pro's at most here. Despite the rhetoric of the list on their website.

The thought of UPA part 2 doesnt have a whole lot of people jumping up to help create events right now.

I agree that if the ABP wants as much control as they claim then the only way to get it is to produce their own events. Which may be the entire plan. There is a promoter on the board.

That should be their plan period. If they make their own tour then any existing promoters who want to have pros play will have to work within the stipulations.

Seriously this isn't rocket science. It's just work. And as one millionaire said to me two months ago when this subject came up, "the players are just lazy". And that person already puts a lot of cash into the sport through tournament and player sponsorship.

 

[JCIN]

My question was rhetorical.

But it was valid. We have had people put up close to half a million dollars over the years in our matches. There's plenty of money out there if people feel they have at least a fair shot at a profit.

 

[Tommy-D]

I want to start here by saying I hope things don't go down the way they've been looking to go since the initial event here was posted,and the various doomsday scenarios discussed since. I'd sure hate to see it.

I personally have never been in this situation with Barry. Some of the best times of my entire life were as a result of what he has built with his connection to the history of the sport.

I won't jump on the anti-Barry bandwagon,and won't go into a diatribe about whatever events that have led to the current situation.

My point is that whatever mistakes were made by whoever that have happened since,you can't blame the man for the incident that may have started the whole slide,which as far as I know was 9/11.

Before that happened and it's effect on the tournament,payouts,and how it was handled,I had never heard a negative word about the man.

I can truly understand how those affected by complications with him can feel the way it's been expressed. It has to suck,and BAD for some.

However,given some of the things that have happened,maybe he's handled them as well as can be reasonably expected because he hasn't folded his tent yet. Tommy D.

 

[JB Cases]

I want to start here by saying I hope things don't go down the way they've been looking to go since the initial event here was posted,and the various doomsday scenarios discussed since. I'd sure hate to see it.

I personally have never been in this situation with Barry. Some of the best times of my entire life were as a result of what he has built with his connection to the history of the sport.

I won't jump on the anti-Barry bandwagon,and won't go into a diatribe about whatever events that have led to the current situation.

My point is that whatever mistakes were made by whoever that have happened since,you can't blame the man for the incident that may have started the whole slide,which as far as I know was 9/11.

Before that happened and it's effect on the tournament,payouts,and how it was handled,I had never heard a negative word about the man.

I can truly understand how those affected by complications with him can feel the way it's been expressed. It has to suck,and BAD for some.

However,given some of the things that have happened,maybe he's handled them as well as can be reasonably expected because he hasn't folded his tent yet. Tommy D.

I have to agree with this. I was on a plane on the way to the US Open on the morning of 9/11/2001. We were forced down in Kansas City and I missed the open and about 15k in revenue. Which wasn't a big deal in light of the national tragedy we all went through.

Obviously this hurt Barry financially in a huge way. And I don't think he has ever recovered fully. I think that the shocker for the players was that guaranteed was found to not really mean guaranteed. And that has been the real issue ever since. If Barry slow payed people prior to 9/11 we didn't hear about it.

Don Shimel allowed one of his customers to carry about 100,000 in back invoices. The was an unofficial line of credit that Don told me he fully expected the customer to someday default on. But this customer turned over about 200k per year in merchandise and he did pay invoices but from the previous year. I think that if Barry were known among the players for slow paying prior to 9/11 then they kept it to themselves for much the same reason.

But now it's a different world and with all the tournament stiffers/slow payers over the past 9 years it's too much. Barry knows that this is how it is now and he should just focus on making sure that the prize money is totally there to reassure the players and give them peace of mind.

 

[JAM]

There's a lot of opinions how we think things should be handled, but at the end of the day, I haven't seen any of the so-called pros post their thoughts, other than PoolGrapevine.

I had always believed that Allen Hopkins would be the perfect choice to lead an organization of players. He genuinely loves to compete, and he has a demonstrated track record of promoting successful events. He has experienced all the previous organizational failures in the past, so he has a good understanding of what does *not* work. Plus, he still has a passion for pool after all these years.

If Johnny Archer is at the helm of the ABP, I must say that all my interactions with him have been above board. He really is a nice man of strong faith with family values. I don't believe he is the right candidate that should take on the ABP. He has exhibited favoritism in the past, which is one reason why an active player should *not* be running a governing body of professional pool.

It has been said that Charlie Williams is involved in the running of the ABP. [Hi, PoolGrapevine.] They say that in order to be successful in business, you have to be a [fill in the blank]. Charlie has proven that he can create a successful business model in pool. He needs a good PR man, though, when dealing with some folks. He's got the personality of a kumquat when interacting with pool players who won't march to the beat of his drum.

Barry Behrman truly does put in a lot of effort every single year to make things happen for this Open event. It is true that this huge event does have its warts and flaws when it comes to the payouts. He has issued a press release that monies will be on full display for this upcoming Open. If this is true, the monies can be guaranteed by being placed in escrow BEFOREHAND. He can also address the players who are still owed from previous Opens before October 2011. There is still time to iron out all the wrinkles and make this work.

I am disappointed that the ABP didn't handle this in a different way, but I admire their attempt at a united front. These are just my thoughts. In the end, none of what is written on this thread means very much to this latest turn of events.

That said, long live Barry Behrman and the U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship, the best tournament I've ever been to in my life. It always has been and always will be, at least for me! :smile:

 

[Carolina Blue]

We will soon all get this type of letter

Since September 11, 2001, Americans have come together as never before in our generation. We have banded together to overcome adversity.

We have weathered direct attacks on our own soil, wars overseas, corporate/government scandal, layoffs, unemployment, stock price plunges, droughts, fires, mad cow, SARS, high gasoline prices, and a myriad of economic and physical disasters both great and small. But now, we must come together once again to overcome our greatest challenge yet.

Hundreds of Professional Football players in our very own nation are going to be locked out, living at well below the seven-figure salary level. And as if that weren't bad enough they could be deprived of their life giving pay for several months, possibly longer, as a result of the upcoming lockout situation. But you can help! For only $27,080 a month, about $902.75 a day (that's less than the cost of a large screen projection TV) you can help an NFL player remain economically viable during his time of need.

This contribution by no means solves the problem as it barely covers the annual minimum salary, but it's a start, and every little bit will help!Although $900 may not seem like a lot of money to you, to a football player it could mean the difference between spending the lockout golfing in Florida or on a Mediterranean cruise. For you, nine hundred dollars is nothing more than a month's rent, a mortgage payment, or a month of medical insurance, but to a football player, $900 will partially replace his daily salary.Your commitment of less than $900 a day will enable a player to buy that home entertainment center, trade in the year-old Lexus for a new Ferrari, or enjoy a weekend in Rio ..

HOW WILL I KNOW I'M HELPING?
Each month, you will receive a complete financial report on the player you sponsor. Detailed information about his stocks, bonds, 401(k), real estate, and other investment holdings will be mailed to your home. Plus, upon signing up for this program, you will receive an unsigned photo of the player lounging during the lockout on a beach somewhere in the Caribbean (for a signed photo, please include an additional $150). Put the photo on your refrigerator to remind you of other peoples' suffering.

HOW WILL HE KNOW I'M HELPING?
Your NFL player will be told that he has a SPECIAL FRIEND who just wants to help in a time of need. Although the player won't know your name, he will be able to make collect calls to your home via a special operator in case additional funds are needed for unforeseen expenses. Remember, a lifestyle is a horrible thing to waste...

YES, I WANT TO HELP!
I would like to sponsor a locked out NFL player.
My preference is (check below):[ ] Offense [ ] Defense [ ] Special Teams [ ] Entire team
Please charge the account listed below $902.75 per day for the duration of the lockout.
Please send me a picture of the player and my very own Roger Goodell (NFL Commissioner) pin to wear proudly on my hat (include $80 for hat).Your Name: ____________________Telephone Number: ___________________Account Number: __________________Exp.Date:_______[ ] MasterCard [ ] Visa [ ] American Express [ ] OtherSignature: _______________________
Alternate card (when the primary card exceeds its credit limit):Account Number: _______________________ Exp.Date:_______[ ] MasterCard [ ] Visa [ ] American Express [ ] OtherSignature: ______________________

p.S. If you have a little extra, please enclose for the cheerleaders. Contrary to public opinion, cheerleaders are people too.

 

[jay helfert]

I keep reading and thinking about all this. Obviously I'd like to see the U.S. Open continue to be one of the premier events in the sport and for all the top players to participate.

I believe in dealing with things on a current bais, not on what happened years ago. And by that I mean what happened with the payouts at the 2010 U.S. Open? I'd like to ask that question publicly of all forty or so players who signed this boycott press release.

1. Did you play in the 2010 U.S. Open?
2. Did you get paid? (If you finished in the money)
3. How long did it take to get your money?
4. Are you still owed any money from that event?

I think these are pertinent questions for all the players who have their name on this list. Let them come on here and answer them or they can send me a PM or e-mail me at jayhelfert@yahoo.com. The answers to these questions will have a direct bearing on where I stand on this issue.

What I do know is that in many international events the players participate in, there is a delay in being paid, with two to four weeks being the norm (for bank money transfers). And longer periods not unusual. Do the members of the ABP plan on boycotting these events as well?

My personal knowledge of last year's U.S. Open was that post dated checks were issued to the top finishers. They were dated in one week intervals spanning a period of one month! I also received a post dated check for my services, that I cashed about ten days after the Open with no problem. What I would like to know (see above questions) is if all the players who received similar checks had any problem when cashing them, and were they all paid within a reasonable period of time.

The answers to those questions are paramont to me in determining the validity of this boycott.

 

[jay helfert]

Since September 11, 2001, Americans have come together as never before in our generation. We have banded together to overcome adversity.

We have weathered direct attacks on our own soil, wars overseas, corporate/government scandal, layoffs, unemployment, stock price plunges, droughts, fires, mad cow, SARS, high gasoline prices, and a myriad of economic and physical disasters both great and small. But now, we must come together once again to overcome our greatest challenge yet.

Hundreds of Professional Football players in our very own nation are going to be locked out, living at well below the seven-figure salary level. And as if that weren't bad enough they could be deprived of their life giving pay for several months, possibly longer, as a result of the upcoming lockout situation. But you can help! For only $27,080 a month, about $902.75 a day (that's less than the cost of a large screen projection TV) you can help an NFL player remain economically viable during his time of need.

This contribution by no means solves the problem as it barely covers the annual minimum salary, but it's a start, and every little bit will help!Although $900 may not seem like a lot of money to you, to a football player it could mean the difference between spending the lockout golfing in Florida or on a Mediterranean cruise. For you, nine hundred dollars is nothing more than a month's rent, a mortgage payment, or a month of medical insurance, but to a football player, $900 will partially replace his daily salary.Your commitment of less than $900 a day will enable a player to buy that home entertainment center, trade in the year-old Lexus for a new Ferrari, or enjoy a weekend in Rio ..

HOW WILL I KNOW I'M HELPING?
Each month, you will receive a complete financial report on the player you sponsor. Detailed information about his stocks, bonds, 401(k), real estate, and other investment holdings will be mailed to your home. Plus, upon signing up for this program, you will receive an unsigned photo of the player lounging during the lockout on a beach somewhere in the Caribbean (for a signed photo, please include an additional $150). Put the photo on your refrigerator to remind you of other peoples' suffering.

HOW WILL HE KNOW I'M HELPING?
Your NFL player will be told that he has a SPECIAL FRIEND who just wants to help in a time of need. Although the player won't know your name, he will be able to make collect calls to your home via a special operator in case additional funds are needed for unforeseen expenses. Remember, a lifestyle is a horrible thing to waste...

YES, I WANT TO HELP!
I would like to sponsor a locked out NFL player.
My preference is (check below):[ ] Offense [ ] Defense [ ] Special Teams [ ] Entire team
Please charge the account listed below $902.75 per day for the duration of the lockout.
Please send me a picture of the player and my very own Roger Goodell (NFL Commissioner) pin to wear proudly on my hat (include $80 for hat).Your Name: ____________________Telephone Number: ___________________Account Number: __________________Exp.Date:_______[ ] MasterCard [ ] Visa [ ] American Express [ ] OtherSignature: _______________________
Alternate card (when the primary card exceeds its credit limit):Account Number: _______________________ Exp.Date:_______[ ] MasterCard [ ] Visa [ ] American Express [ ] OtherSignature: ______________________

p.S. If you have a little extra, please enclose for the cheerleaders. Contrary to public opinion, cheerleaders are people too.

BRILLIANT! I feel the same way about all professional athletes who bemoan their fate, while making seven figure salaries. And very healthy ones at that! There are many pro baseball, basketball and football players who will earn more in one year then most working stiffs earn in their lifetime! This is why when I hear their complaints about their working conditions, I turn a deaf ear and have no desire to support them by buying tickets to see them play.

 

[pro9dg]

There is much that I could say on these developments but I will confine myself to a couple of items that can be found on the ABP website which spell doom to them.

We will encourage promoters to change all events to 10 Ball
The 9 Ball or the 10 Ball from the break will not count.
All flukes will not count.
Call shots to be the norm.
Longer races
Seeding issues
All these things indicate that these players have no idea of what the potential viewers of the sport find attractive.

Take away 9 Ball which has been marketed to an extent where most viewers can understand the rules/stategies.

Lose The Golden Breaks and the accidently potted balls

Call shots and longer races - boring

It is hard enough to market the sport in it's existing state. With these changes it will become even less attractive.

 

[JAM]

There is much that I could say on these developments but I will confine myself to a couple of items that can be found on the ABP website which spell doom to them.

We will encourage promoters to change all events to 10 Ball
The 9 Ball or the 10 Ball from the break will not count.
All flukes will not count.
Call shots to be the norm.
Longer races
Seeding issues
All these things indicate that these players have no idea of what the potential viewers of the sport find attractive.

Take away 9 Ball which has been marketed to an extent where most viewers can understand the rules/stategies.

Lose The Golden Breaks and the accidently potted balls

Call shots and longer races - boring

It is hard enough to market the sport in it's existing state. With these changes it will become even less attractive.

I had not thought of that, but you're right on the money [pun intended]. Well said, Doug!

 

[Realizm]

I'm glad this is going on i have been hearing for sometimes a lot of the players have not been payed from 09 , So how would feel if you showed up to work and you get less then have of your pay ? So i'm glad the top pro's will not play due to the players that win don't get payed...
pool is there job...

 

[JCIN]

I'm glad this is going on i have been hearing for sometimes a lot of the players have not been payed from 09 , So how would feel if you showed up to work and you get less then have of your pay ? So i'm glad the top pro's will not play due to the players that win don't get payed...
pool is there job...

I would be curious who is owed money from the 2009 US Open. Based on what I have heard there is one guy Barry owes from the Masters and all the Open debts have been settled.

 

[JAM]

I wonder if the two leading lights of the ABP will impose any conditions on this event.

 

[Island Drive]

It's nice having support from across the pond....

 

[Blackjack]

It's nice having support from across the pond....

It's nice to see the players uniting and not taking any BS. They should stand tough and demand to be treated as professionals. It's about time!