Better equipment, shafts, Tips, and Kamui Chalk, but the 526 RUN RECORDS Stands?

I saw him play

Back in 68-69 at the Billiard Tavern in San Diego. He was my first idol in Pool, so it was pretty exciting for me. He was amazing. He had absolute knowledge with perfect technique. The balls did not slide in, they went center pocket. He was the epitomy of a true Professional at that time.

Forget about the 526 record, which will never be broken, what about the 15 World 14.1 Titles that he won. Think any of today's players could win 15 world titles?????
 
lfigueroa said:
Reference please.

Lou Figueroa
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Theres a local player here that is in his 80's that played a ring game on the 526 table the day after Mosconi ran it. He said that the pockets were the biggest he had ever seen to this day.... The Wikipedia page used to state 5-1/2" but someone edited it.
 
cueman said:
This is a good post. Even if his record is broken, his record should probably still be held in high esteem because of the conditions it was done under. The type of balls he had to play with and the slower cloth and so on.
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You're correct, that is a very good post. I never had the privilege of seeing the man in person.

There are many good points in that post I didn't think about.
 
hmmm

lfigueroa said:
It is the way of the world.

People that never saw the man in question play with their own two peepers want to say someone today is better. Doesn't matter if it's pool, baseball, basketball, table tennis.

But, if you saw, you'd believe.

Everyone wants to buy into the current champions. It is what it is.

Lou Figueroa
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Yep, I never saw the man shoot nor met him either, but respect what he did and how he did it.

I also never saw Lou Gehrig either, and I'm not about to challenge his talents because they did not throw "90 mph sliders" in his day, or the pitchers were not as "good" as today, or some other BS that I could come up with. Something that Lou or Wllile had no control over. Not to mention that either also did not have the "best" equipment either.

Just tired of hearing this topic coming up every few months.... blah blah, and that so and so could break the record if he WANTED to?? Right, if they wanted to but chose NOT to.... whatever...
 
lfigueroa said:
There would still be a few problems: Mosconi did it in public -- not locked up in a basement or garage with perfect conditions. Mosconi just walked in and did it on an unfamiliar table with folks watching and dealt with the conditions. One take.

So someone setups an eight-footer with big pockets under perfect conditions, gets used to the table, sets up a video camera and toils away at it for days, weeks, months, years until they finally get it. So what? Not the same. Not equal.

Mosconi traveled the country for years, walked into one strange pool room after another 300 days out of any given year and typically ran 100 balls or more at every stop. I saw it every time I had the opportunity to see him play and, to a man, everyone else who ever saw him play saw him do it. He was not locked up in a private room. No perfect conditions. No control of the a/c or heat, humidity, levelness of the table, music in the background, PA announcements, distractions of the crowd, endless hours to practice, or dozens and dozens of tries. He walked in, shot off two racks to warm up, and was ready to go. He'd play the local lamb a game to 125 and within the framework of *that one single game* he'd run a 100, or if he ran the game out and had not run 100 yet would turn to the crowd and ask, "Would you like to see a 100 ball run?" And then he'd do it, get in his car, and repeat that in the next town. Just think, if: every time he ran 100, he had just kept going? Who knows what the record might have ended up being.

I have watched a lot of s 14.1 over the years. And personally, none -- not a one-- of today's champs, great as they are, are his equal. None show the same level of skill, take a rack apart the way he did, or even just look as good at the table as he did. So if one day, as will inevitably happen, a player produces a video of a run breaking the record, you gotta ask the player: "Did you just walk in and do it?"

I'm betting not.

Lou Figueroa
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Great post.
 
Straight pool being the predominant game they played back then might have something to do with it too.
Im sure our players today put up better stats in rotations games then the old timers would have.
If Schimdt can run 400 then im sure if every pro alive switched to nothing but straight pool that record would come down within a few years. Espcially if played on a bucket 8 footer.
 
lfigueroa said:
There would still be a few problems: Mosconi did it in public -- not locked up in a basement or garage with perfect conditions. Mosconi just walked in and did it on an unfamiliar table with folks watching and dealt with the conditions. One take.

So someone setups an eight-footer with big pockets under perfect conditions, gets used to the table, sets up a video camera and toils away at it for days, weeks, months, years until they finally get it. So what? Not the same. Not equal.

Mosconi traveled the country for years, walked into one strange pool room after another 300 days out of any given year and typically ran 100 balls or more at every stop. I saw it every time I had the opportunity to see him play and, to a man, everyone else who ever saw him play saw him do it. He was not locked up in a private room. No perfect conditions. No control of the a/c or heat, humidity, levelness of the table, music in the background, PA announcements, distractions of the crowd, endless hours to practice, or dozens and dozens of tries. He walked in, shot off two racks to warm up, and was ready to go. He'd play the local lamb a game to 125 and within the framework of *that one single game* he'd run a 100, or if he ran the game out and had not run 100 yet would turn to the crowd and ask, "Would you like to see a 100 ball run?" And then he'd do it, get in his car, and repeat that in the next town. Just think, if: every time he ran 100, he had just kept going? Who knows what the record might have ended up being.

I have watched a lot of s 14.1 over the years. And personally, none -- not a one-- of today's champs, great as they are, are his equal. None show the same level of skill, take a rack apart the way he did, or even just look as good at the table as he did. So if one day, as will inevitably happen, a player produces a video of a run breaking the record, you gotta ask the player: "Did you just walk in and do it?"

I'm betting not.

Lou Figueroa
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I was one of the "Lambs" that got to play Willie. He ran 85 perfect balls out on me. I lived in NJ and got to see just about all the greatest players that were around during the '60s and nobody then or now runs racks as well as Willie did and he did it rack after rack. Sure he had his rare off days but when he was on-nobody came close.
 
stevekur1 said:
I Dont think money or prize has anything to do with it !!!!


I know at a little event in vegas this past year there was a 20k bounty on the run and no one even came close. we also had a bounty on the run at the Fury 14.1 Challenge at Super Billiards Expo with the same result....But you know what, everyone is still trying to do it. and thats great news for 14.1


-Steve
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Both of which were played on a 9' diamond. Not exactly straight pool friendly. 8' Brunswick with 5.5" pockets, clean balls and good cloth... and players will run racks and racks and rack and racks.
 
I've often heard Mosconi referred to as the greatest position player that ever lived by his peers. I'm also impressed by the fact that he used to show up and reguarly make huge runs on equipment with which he was not familiar. He realy was the real deal.

Still, he hardly dedicated his life to setting a high run record that was untouchable. Like others, I am aware of Art "Babe" Cranfield's run of 768, one of two times he supposedly broke 700. I recall asking Irving Crane, also from Rochester, NY, if he believed it, and Irving's reply was that Babe may have had more 300+ runs than any player that ever lived and that the 768 seemed very believable.

That Willie's record still stands is no knock on the great players of today. Those who note that if straight pool were the major competitive discipline today, a very high run would likely be on the books (with 1,000 a very realistic number by my reckoning) are correct.

I, for one, beleive that the top straight pool players of today like Hohmann, Schmidt, Ortmann, Immonen, Archer, Appleton and Feijen, are every bit as talented as the old masters of Mosconi's era, just less experienced at the competitive discipline of straight pool.
 
cleary said:
Both of which were played on a 9' diamond. Not exactly straight pool friendly. 8' Brunswick with 5.5" pockets, clean balls and good cloth... and players will run racks and racks and rack and racks.
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I love how the pockets on the 8 foot table keep getting bigger the more times the story is told. First 4 3/4" pockets then 5" pockets and now 5.5" pockets. Is there any documented evidence as to how big the pockets actually were?

Willie also played on slow cloth and likely rails that are not as pristine as the diamonds. I also believe the balls were different than those of today.

He also didn't have predator and OB1 shafts nor did he have Kamui tips and chalk yet he still managed to do it in an exhibition match on an unfamiliar table.

Some of the top 14.1 players of today might be able to do it if they devoted more time to the game. Those that think 526 on an 8 footer is easy should go find an 8 footer and try to run 50. My guess is many that try this will be quite challenged.
 
This is a good discussion, nice and clean :)

My final thought: I don't think this run should in any way be de-legitimized by supposedly large pockets or the size of the table. To me, it doesn't even matter. Have other great players never played on, or had a chance at, great runs on equipment with loose pockets??? I actually think these big pocket comments are off anyways.... people say it almost as if "how can you help but run 500+ with such big pockets."
 
I figure I'll throw my $0.02 in on this subject. I have heard multiple excuses as to why the record hasn't been broken. Excuses from it being on an 8' table to the size of the pockets and of course the if a cash prize was put up it would be broken.

How about breaking the record with deader balls, deader rails and deader cloth. How about breaking the 5x10 14.1 record of Babe Cranfield of 420. Are you going to try to tell me that someone breaking 200 is going to just play not care from then on out because there's no point?

I don't want to hear any crap about money. If money was the only factor separating the pros from breaking Mosconi's record then no possible record breaker would enter a 14.1 World Championship. A lot of times it's not about the money.
 
poolplayer2093 said:
That's what Grady Matthews said in his book bet high and kiss low
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hmmmm, no.

Correct me if I'm wrong with a page number, but what Grady said about Mosconi in that book was that, while a great player, in his opionion Mosconi was an asshole. No news there.

Lou Figueroa
 
lfigueroa said:
Maybe because that was wrong?

Lou Figueroa
just guessin'.
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There have been a couple of people on here over the years that said they seen or played on the table years later when it was in George Roods' poolroom and the pockets were normal size. What I am telling everyone is that a local guy that was a good player played on the same table the following day and without provocation he said the pockets were the biggest he had ever seen. I asked him "Loose like one of those Olhausens? (4-7/8" pockets)" and he said "no, those tables are real tight compared to that table". He said it was impossible to miss a makeable ball. This is a guy that Howard Vickery played in a weekly ring game with when Howard was in his prime and Howard never once got the money until Johnny was in his 50's. So its not like my info came from some hack.... His testimony matches up with the info that used to be on the Wiki page, 5-1/2" pockets.....
 
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