Titleist

it makes me wonder if Brunswick had intended to have Hoppe's name on the billiard cue and Greenleaf's on a 'pocket' cue...but since things with Ralph went south, perhaps thats why they just stuck with Hoppe...

unfortunately a little too much time has passed to ever get an answer to some of these questions...


can anyone verify - was the Hoppe Titlist the only brunswick cue to ever get a players name on it?
 
it makes me wonder if Brunswick had intended to have Hoppe's name on the billiard cue and Greenleaf's on a 'pocket' cue...but since things with Ralph went south, perhaps thats why they just stuck with Hoppe...

unfortunately a little too much time has passed to ever get an answer to some of these questions...


can anyone verify - was the Hoppe Titlist the only brunswick cue to ever get a players name on it?

There were some of those Greenleaf cues made. Even though they look like Brunswick's, I don't think Brunswick made or sold them - it would be very unusual for Brunswick to market something without their name on it.

http://www.3cushion.com/On%20Line%20Collection/Cues/greenleaf.htm

In the early 1900's, Brunswick had "Frank Ives" cues. But you're right, I don't recall the mass marketing of player names (except Hoppe) like some other cue makers had.

http://www.palmercollector.com/Brunswick/Brunswick_1908-7.jpg

I didn't know there was a stigma attached to Greenleaf - interesting stuff.
 
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I always thought that Ralpf G was known for his~off table antics. I can't remember which book I had read this in, maybe McGoorty?
 
that Greenleaf cue is interesting - i dont know that i ever noticed that one before....good stuff....

yeah Ralph was a showman, but he was also a notorious lush. some of his antics (and drinking during matches) pissed off the powers that be on more than one occasion. he eventually started getting banned from matches so in 1949 he filed a $100,000 suit against Brunswick and the billiard association.

did he have the right to? - i cant really say for sure, but, one thing that Ralph's suit did accomplish was bringing out into the public eye the fact that the billiard association and Brunswick were literally one and the same. that is to say - Brunswick could control not only their sponsored pros, but everyone playing in sanctioned games as well.
 
There were some of those Greenleaf cues made. Even though they look like Brunswick's, I don't think Brunswick made or sold them - it would be very unusual for Brunswick to market something without their name on it.

http://www.3cushion.com/On%20Line%20Collection/Cues/greenleaf.htm

In the early 1900's, Brunswick had "Frank Ives" cues. But you're right, I don't recall the mass marketing of player names (except Hoppe) like some other cue makers had.

http://www.palmercollector.com/Brunswick/Brunswick_1908-7.jpg

I didn't know there was a stigma attached to Greenleaf - interesting stuff.

That Greenleaf is most definitely a Brunswick Tiltist blank, either made by Ralph or made for Ralph. I'm thinking it was made for him, possibly by Rambow, because of the signature.
 
That Greenleaf is most definitely a Brunswick Tiltist blank, either made by Ralph or made for Ralph. I'm thinking it was made for him, possibly by Rambow, because of the signature.

These were production cues and the signature is burned in with a hot stamp (similar to how the Hoppe's were stamped). I've seen several identical ones - the veneer colors are wrong (red,black) - I have a couple of old cue experts I can discuss this with, I'll try to find out who made them.

Chris
 
Holy Sh*t did this thread get off topic! But, it is also the best thread going right now!! All of this history is awesome, and I love the museum. I really enjoy reading about the historical aspects of the game.

Thank you guys for the history lesson. I hope even more comes out in this thread!


Braden
 
These were production cues and the signature is burned in with a hot stamp (similar to how the Hoppe's were stamped). I've seen several identical ones - the veneer colors are wrong (red,black) - I have a couple of old cue experts I can discuss this with, I'll try to find out who made them.

Chris

I heard there were a few cues, preceding the Titlist that were made by Brunswick, were they experimented with veneers. It would be between the 26 1/2 and the 1st Titlist, circa late 30's. It would be really interesting to nail this, however...I do not believe Ralph had the wherewithal to produced these kinds of full-splice blanks.
Yes the signature was obviously burned into the forearm! Which leads me to believe again this IS a Brunswick blank!
 
I heard there were a few cues, preceding the Titlist that were made by Brunswick, were they experimented with veneers. It would be between the 26 1/2 and the 1st Titlist, circa late 30's. It would be really interesting to nail this, however...I do not believe Ralph had the wherewithal to produced these kinds of full-splice blanks.
Yes the signature was obviously burned into the forearm! Which leads me to believe again this IS a Brunswick blank!

My expert friend also believes it's a Brunswick but the decal was lost in a refinish. If you notice the cue may have been refinished at one time, since part of the Greenleaf stamping seems to be sanded out.

We discussed the different manufacturers, and he does not believe that the other production manufactuers had the means to produce similar veneered cues at that time (which is likely 1950's).

I have a number of Titlists, 26 1/2's, ect. - while nothing has this exact pattern, Brunswick used many dyed veneer patterns for 60+ years of making these cues.

I hope someday someone finds a Greenleaf with a Brunswick decal - that would settle this mystery.
 
this is true, and i know that was the point...
just wanted to clarify that Rambow didnt cut his teeth on the titlist...
hell, he may have even invented it.


Herman Rambow did not invent the Titlist cue, in fact he did invent the previous cues that had veneered points such as the Brunswick 26 1/2. These designs were copied from cues that Brunswick had been importing from Europe from 1800's into the early 1900's when they started producing cues in their Chicago Factory in large qaunities.

The first catalog I have seen that makes reference to the Brunswick 26 1/2 was the 1908 catalog, and this was the first cue Brunswick produced with standard points and Multiple veneer's. They also produced muti-veneered butterfly spliced cues starting around the turn of the century but even with said they were still importing cues until around 1905. It is very possible that after this time frame Herman was working full time in the Chicago cue department. It also makes sense that he may have been involved in the construction of these early cues, but this was not one of his major contributions. In 1914 Brunswick was fully involved in production of Cues, their catalog for that year shows they had over forty models to choose from, at no other time did they produce such a wide variety of cues.

What people seem to forget is that Herman's first major contribution to Brunswick was the Cue Repair facility that he started. Many rooms did have the ability to do cue repair, so Herman realized there was great deal of money to made re-tipping and repairing cues. The truth of the matter is that they could replace the tip, ferrule, and splice in a new shaft for less then the cost of new cue. This is another reason that many plain one piece cues can be found with Rose wood or Ebony spliced shafts.

The next thing that Herman contributed was the adjustable balance point in cues. The result of his design was the Hub Cue, and this was also the reason that it unscrewed just above the cues wrap. Many other companies copied this design, so unless a Hub cue has a Brunswick decal it is impossible to say who made the cue. This method of balance is still used today by cue makers around the world, no other method has been found that will make it antiqued.

It is a sad state of affairs that more documented information
is not available on this subject. I am certain that Herman's contributions were far greater than we will ever be know, however, this subject requires a great deal research which I have done over the last 15 years. I have handled large numbers of these cues, and I have made many observations based upon this and the available documentation.

Oh and by the way, I also read that some one thought the Ralph Greenleaf cues were made from Titlist blanks. That is completely incorrect, the Veneer colors are totally different. Now while I have not been able to find out who made this cue, I would offer the following information.

The cues were made in the late 50's or 1960's, that is based upon the materials used in the cues design. I would also say that the were made by Brunswick, I would base this also on the Joint design, and materials used in the cues construction. These designs were exactly like the designs and materials used in all two piece cues made by Brunswick during that time frame. No other cues being mass produced were made in a similar fashion during this time. I have had 3 of these cues over the years, and that is what I have based my comments upon. So until some one finds a catalog with these cues listed I will stand by my comments.

Hope this helps
 
My expert friend also believes it's a Brunswick but the decal was lost in a refinish. If you notice the cue may have been refinished at one time, since part of the Greenleaf stamping seems to be sanded out.

We discussed the different manufacturers, and he does not believe that the other production manufactuers had the means to produce similar veneered cues at that time (which is likely 1950's).

I have a number of Titlists, 26 1/2's, ect. - while nothing has this exact pattern, Brunswick used many dyed veneer patterns for 60+ years of making these cues.

I hope someday someone finds a Greenleaf with a Brunswick decal - that would settle this mystery.

I have been watching for these cues on Ebay for many years off and on. There has been about six to eight of them and I have never seen a lable on one yet. Maybe I am wrong but I collect a few lable cues and I think I would of remembered a lable. I will search some of my pictures and report back.
 
I have been watching for these cues on Ebay for many years off and on. There has been about six to eight of them and I have never seen a lable on one yet. Maybe I am wrong but I collect a few lable cues and I think I would of remembered a lable. I will search some of my pictures and report back.

Good info - that's my point. Brunswick normally had their name on everything.

I agree the parts look like Brunswick.

Maybe they didn't have their name on the cues because they were being wholesaled out and sold through various channels, like A E Schmidt or other catalogs.
 
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Good info - that's my point. Brunswick normally had their name on everything.

I agree the parts look like Brunswick.

Maybe they didn't have their name on the cues because they were being wholesaled and sold through various channels, like A E Schmidt or other catalogs.

You could also add Katz to the list of suspects. Turns out the
multi-veneered butterfly cue I have, which I always assumed was a
Brunswick, is most likely a Katz. If you can make a sharp bottomed,
true butterfly splice, a 4 point full splice should be no problem.

Dale
 
You could also add Katz to the list of suspects. Turns out the
multi-veneered butterfly cue I have, which I always assumed was a
Brunswick, is most likely a Katz. If you can make a sharp bottomed,
true butterfly splice, a 4 point full splice should be no problem.

Dale

The Katz cues I've seen from the 1950's have a distinct joint - screw in the shaft and the shaft side is piloted, brass pilot in the butt.
 
it makes me wonder if Brunswick had intended to have Hoppe's name on the billiard cue and Greenleaf's on a 'pocket' cue...but since things with Ralph went south, perhaps thats why they just stuck with Hoppe...

unfortunately a little too much time has passed to ever get an answer to some of these questions...


can anyone verify - was the Hoppe Titlist the only brunswick cue to ever get a players name on it?

Well, their catalogs of the 20s and the 50s and 60s don't differentiate
between cues for pool and cues for billiards. From the 40s to the 70s
many a carom game was played with a Hoppe cue.

Dale
 
Herman Rambow did not invent the Titlist cue, in fact he did invent the previous cues that had veneered points such as the Brunswick 26 1/2. These designs were copied from cues that Brunswick had been importing from Europe from 1800's into the early 1900's when they started producing cues in their Chicago Factory in large qaunities.

......

What people seem to forget is that Herman's first major contribution to Brunswick was the Cue Repair facility that he started. Many rooms did have the ability to do cue repair, so Herman realized there was great deal of money to made re-tipping and repairing cues. The truth of the matter is that they could replace the tip, ferrule, and splice in a new shaft for less then the cost of new cue. This is another reason that many plain one piece cues can be found with Rose wood or Ebony spliced shafts.

....

excellent post craig

edited to add question: ever heard of Fritz Hampel
 
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Good info - that's my point. Brunswick normally had their name on everything.

I agree the parts look like Brunswick.

Maybe they didn't have their name on the cues because they were being wholesaled out and sold through various channels, like A E Schmidt or other catalogs.


is it not possible that someone made fakes? just askin
 
Good info - that's my point. Brunswick normally had their name on everything.

I agree the parts look like Brunswick.

Maybe they didn't have their name on the cues because they were being wholesaled out and sold through various channels, like A E Schmidt or other catalogs.

They didn't have their name on the hundreds of thousands of true "blanks" that were sold to other cue builders! Unfortunately, we will probably never find out because of the fire at Brunswick in 1974 that destroyed most of the records! I guess we should be glad we have at least an inkling of what went on back then. I can't help but wonder if someone is hiding some of these blanks in some Schmelke warehouse.:grin:
 
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