Some Pros Said They Would like Harder Tables
- Thread starter Johnnyt
- Start date
I'm not convinced the 10' table is necessary, the set up of the TAR table is plenty challenging for the pros.
One of the great things about pool is us mere mortals get to play on the same size equipment pros play on. If professional events went to 10 footers that would no longer be the case.
I'm not sure it's in the best interests of the industry either (except, of course the table manufacturers). Rooms simply aren't in the financial position to toss out all their tables and replace them with fewer 10 footers. It's much cheaper to reduce the pocket size to a pro standard and the room doesn't lose a number of tables due to space. If players insist on wanting to play on the one or two 10 footers some rooms do install, it could reduce their revenues even further as everyone is on the wait list for the 10 footer while all the "baby" 9 footers go unused.
Same is true for home table owners.
Obviously it would be great for Diamond and I can certainly see why they are promoting it, but I'm not sure this would be doing room owners any favors.
One of the great things about pool is us mere mortals get to play on the same size equipment pros play on. If professional events went to 10 footers that would no longer be the case.
I'm not sure it's in the best interests of the industry either (except, of course the table manufacturers). Rooms simply aren't in the financial position to toss out all their tables and replace them with fewer 10 footers. It's much cheaper to reduce the pocket size to a pro standard and the room doesn't lose a number of tables due to space. If players insist on wanting to play on the one or two 10 footers some rooms do install, it could reduce their revenues even further as everyone is on the wait list for the 10 footer while all the "baby" 9 footers go unused.
Same is true for home table owners.
Obviously it would be great for Diamond and I can certainly see why they are promoting it, but I'm not sure this would be doing room owners any favors.
Until a pro is breaking and running every rack in a tournament with 4 1/2" pockets, why should they play on smaller pockets? Or even use slower cloth?
I think some would still say they want a harder table if you had all tourneys on a 6x12 snooker table and played with regular pool balls.
Maybe a 10x20 table is needed with 2.26 in wide pockets with rounded points and slow cloth.. That should kill much of the luck. But I fear some would still think bigger and tougher would give them an advantage over the other players.
I think you can get to a point with the pocket size getting so small that the game stops being pool and becomes something else that isn't pool anymore. The thing about our game is that you need to be able to work the CB, and when the pockets get too tight, that stops being possible.
Over the years I've run into my share of super tight pockets. Two that spring to mind are the one we used to have one across the river in Illinois and the 1pocket table at Comet Billiards in NJ. IMO, playing pool on tables like those made the game so radically different that it required a completely alternate approach in terms of english and speed. Your strategy needed to be different too if you wanted to win. It wasn't really pool as most of us know it.
Lou Figueroa
If we go to 10' tables, will I have to buy a cue like Earl's to reach the side pocket area?
it wiill help, for sure.
10-foot table with the TAR sized 4 1/8th inch pockets is ideal for pro pool now and going on into the future.
SVB on the TAR table ran 2 six packs and an unfinished 7 pack in 10-ball. Alex ran a 5-pack on the 10-foot last night against Darren and was stopped on a scratch on the break.
And these feats were done when the pros were generally new to the equipment and not seasoned on it. The more they practice and compete on equipment the better they will get on it. Even the slow IPT cloth showed that, the first event had noone edging much past 30% in B&R%, in the last event there were players that went well above 40%. Had the IPT continued to be played on the equipment they had the pros would have figured that stuff out and they would have humbled it eventually.
A 10-foot table with the same size of pockets as the TAR table (4 1/8th) will be tough initially for the pros but the best of them WILL get better on it quickly and continue to improve the more that the game is played on it. Eventually they will be running ranks on it with fair regularity, but the chance of a pro running the set out on an opponent WILL be greatly diminished and that is a good thing.
One thing that is certain to me already, the 10-foot table alone with standard cut 4 1/2 inch pockets is not good enough, they need the 4 1/8th inch pockets on those as well because the pros who were already great players are not that fazed by that extra foot.
If anyone ever wants to REALLY give 8-ball an honest chance the BEST table they can put pro 8-ball on is the 10-foot diamonds with the tight pockets. It is the perfect game/table combination for pro pool.
This is exactly why pool can never be accepted as a sport on the US. The pros, and those in the industry who thrive on changing the game don't realize that the more difficult you make the game, the more exclusive it becomes.
Basketball, baseball, soccer, and football thrive because we all know the rules, in general they don't change much, and the size of the fields and playing equipment (the ball/goal) has remained the same over decades. Small changes do exist, but not enough to change the game's core.
Cue sports include pool, billiards, and snooker. In general. And those three sports have many different games within themselves. And even if you and I are both playing 9 ball, we discuss which rules to play by.
Does that ever occur in the big sports? No, because spectators would beecome confused, irritated, and lose interest. They know 95% of the rules of the sport they enjoy playing or watching, and can therefore fel like they can be a part of the action, and engage in conversation about it.
Every year the pros want bigger tables, tighter pockets, stricter rules, etc. They are continually excluding more and more players AND spectators from engaging in the sport. People prefer playing 8 ball because the rules are simple and they have become familiar with the game. They fear nine ball because although it is very popular with amateurs and pros, it's notthe game their dad taught them.
Pros:: STOP TRYING TO CHANGE THE EQUIPMENT. Change is necessary in general for the sport, but changing equipment and rules is not the answer. I think TAR has truly nailed it in terms of great broadcasting and matching pros up. It has become like a boxing match, where 2 well-known pros are playing a well-understood game for large amounts of cash. Stick with that formula, and you increase spectator engagement, which leads to more players, which ultimately leads to more sponsorship and funding for this amazing sport. If the pros want to make the most difficult sport in the world tougher out of arrogance, the whole sport will suffer.
Basketball, baseball, soccer, and football thrive because we all know the rules, in general they don't change much, and the size of the fields and playing equipment (the ball/goal) has remained the same over decades. Small changes do exist, but not enough to change the game's core.
Cue sports include pool, billiards, and snooker. In general. And those three sports have many different games within themselves. And even if you and I are both playing 9 ball, we discuss which rules to play by.
Does that ever occur in the big sports? No, because spectators would beecome confused, irritated, and lose interest. They know 95% of the rules of the sport they enjoy playing or watching, and can therefore fel like they can be a part of the action, and engage in conversation about it.
Every year the pros want bigger tables, tighter pockets, stricter rules, etc. They are continually excluding more and more players AND spectators from engaging in the sport. People prefer playing 8 ball because the rules are simple and they have become familiar with the game. They fear nine ball because although it is very popular with amateurs and pros, it's notthe game their dad taught them.
Pros:: STOP TRYING TO CHANGE THE EQUIPMENT. Change is necessary in general for the sport, but changing equipment and rules is not the answer. I think TAR has truly nailed it in terms of great broadcasting and matching pros up. It has become like a boxing match, where 2 well-known pros are playing a well-understood game for large amounts of cash. Stick with that formula, and you increase spectator engagement, which leads to more players, which ultimately leads to more sponsorship and funding for this amazing sport. If the pros want to make the most difficult sport in the world tougher out of arrogance, the whole sport will suffer.
Harder tables weed out the guns who only know how to pocket and play slop position. The game as it's played today ultimately means it's left up to the fans to squabble about who is the greatest player.
The game played on a harder table tests ALL aspects, mental and physical, and minimizes slop is the way the pros should be playing. THEY'RE PROS and shouldn't be playing on some bucket table with an A player. The 3 pt line in pro basketball is 2' further than college. There's a reason for that.
The game played on a harder table tests ALL aspects, mental and physical, and minimizes slop is the way the pros should be playing. THEY'RE PROS and shouldn't be playing on some bucket table with an A player. The 3 pt line in pro basketball is 2' further than college. There's a reason for that.
That would be nice to see 8-ball on the 10's with tight pockets.
Those 10 footers last night didn't look like a cinch but with 1/4" off the pockets it would get much tougher.
TAR's table looks pretty darn tough though. I like the matches to 15, long enough to let skills balance out and fits within an easy viewing time.
the football, soccer analogy is not very good because in these sports you are facing directly your opponent and you can try to stop him. If a guy is running a 7 pack in pool what can you do? Threw your cue against him? The conditions are too easy for these pros. The only reason why these pros are not running 10 racks of 10 ball on every match is only because there is a huge luck on the break. This means the tables are too easy.
That was one huge red herring arguement you just posed there.
You go off about rule variations and different games being a problem (and they are) and then somehow link that to this game getting the proper equipment specs sorted out? Because atm there are no standard accepted equipment specs for pro pool, it is a mix depending on which tourney you are playing in.
We as a sport need to come up with the actual standard specs for professional pool, and atm there are alot of tests going on out there to see how smaller pockets work (TAR), how the larger tables work (Tunica) and we are starting to learn what needs to be done to finally say "these are going to be the specs for professional pool from here forward X x Y foot and A B/C inch pockets"
Once we actually figure out what the proper table specs are we are golden, but suprising to alot of people it seems the 10-foot tables with 4.5 inch pockets might not be it because some of the pros are already dominating that table. But we needed to try it out to see it take place, we needed to throw Alex on there and watch him run a 5-pack on his first match ever on one of the new 10-foots to go "ok, maybe that is still too easy".
I'm talking about pro...like open pros, not tables for the other 99.9%. I have always said that table companies should come up with rails that are quick change or a shim/extenion system tthat can be changed quickly to make pockets bigger or smaller. The perfect place to try these things out would be Diamond in the TAR Pit. Johnnyt
They took them out of rooms in the first place because they just sat weren't played on much at all.
No room owners are going to want to put them in rooms because they take up to much room, especially when room owners are moving in the opposite direction.
It's silly to use them in tournaments because most of the players have no where to practice on them.
Not to mention the amateurs are going to watch the pros miss on the
bigger tables with tighter pockets not having a clue how much harder it is
and not really caring. The professionals need to look as good as possible
for the sake of pool.
It seems some people in the pool world have it backwards compared to other sports where they try to make their professionals look as good as possible.
To sum it up playing on bigger tables with tighter and tighter pockets is a mistake on many levels and moving in the wrong direction for the sport.
Playing by the same rules all the time would be a good start if the people running things want to change something. But 4 1/4 inch pockets are just fine.
Why do the big tables and tight pockets work for Snooker because that's the way they have been for ever and the rules well everybody plays by the same rules every tournament. So everybody the players the spectators know the rules by now as it should be. So it's easy to follow
for the fans. Remember they can go be a fan of something else if you twist their arm a little, very little.
Look at the Southern Classic tournament going on now. They say they want more viewership, more people interested in the game. How ever
it seems that hardly any time was spent at all trying to make it easy to follow the results, even for hard core fans, and it was the same at the last DDC event as well.
If you're trying to find out what the score was in a match, when someone your a fan of is playing, or if so and so won last night or yesterday good luck.
You go to Accu-stats to see whose in the upcoming show and a half hour before match time, you still can't find out on their web site. That's because they haven't done the draw yet or what ever. But what ever the reason is it's not a good way to run things, and has got to hurt Accu-stats sales the way it is, and the sport in general when things are run in this manner.
Not to mention it's just not professional no matter how you look at it.
Which goes right along with how pool is viewed as a second class citizen.
I have a couple hundred Dvd's from Accu-stats and they do the best production of anyone and that includes ESPEW. Their production and
matches are the best hands down.
Another thing if someone is going to do live scoring of a tournament that's great for pool if they keep it updated. However if the live scoring is constantly way behind the matches. It would look better to just not have it at all, as that is just annoying to people trying to find out results.
You want to do things in a manner to attract viewers and keep them
happy, not annoy them. Well that is if your intention is to build this sport.
These are just a few things that I think should be looked at if things are going to be changed. I think you need some things to be constant (tables)
and build around those things (rules).
One day this one day that, one week this one week that isn't the way to go. Taking that to the extreme in one tournament they changed from winner break to alternate break, in the middle of the tournament. LOL What a joke!
No room owners are going to want to put them in rooms because they take up to much room, especially when room owners are moving in the opposite direction.
It's silly to use them in tournaments because most of the players have no where to practice on them.
Not to mention the amateurs are going to watch the pros miss on the
bigger tables with tighter pockets not having a clue how much harder it is
and not really caring. The professionals need to look as good as possible
for the sake of pool.
It seems some people in the pool world have it backwards compared to other sports where they try to make their professionals look as good as possible.
To sum it up playing on bigger tables with tighter and tighter pockets is a mistake on many levels and moving in the wrong direction for the sport.
Playing by the same rules all the time would be a good start if the people running things want to change something. But 4 1/4 inch pockets are just fine.
Why do the big tables and tight pockets work for Snooker because that's the way they have been for ever and the rules well everybody plays by the same rules every tournament. So everybody the players the spectators know the rules by now as it should be. So it's easy to follow
for the fans. Remember they can go be a fan of something else if you twist their arm a little, very little.
Look at the Southern Classic tournament going on now. They say they want more viewership, more people interested in the game. How ever
it seems that hardly any time was spent at all trying to make it easy to follow the results, even for hard core fans, and it was the same at the last DDC event as well.
If you're trying to find out what the score was in a match, when someone your a fan of is playing, or if so and so won last night or yesterday good luck.
You go to Accu-stats to see whose in the upcoming show and a half hour before match time, you still can't find out on their web site. That's because they haven't done the draw yet or what ever. But what ever the reason is it's not a good way to run things, and has got to hurt Accu-stats sales the way it is, and the sport in general when things are run in this manner.
Not to mention it's just not professional no matter how you look at it.
Which goes right along with how pool is viewed as a second class citizen.
I have a couple hundred Dvd's from Accu-stats and they do the best production of anyone and that includes ESPEW. Their production and
matches are the best hands down.
Another thing if someone is going to do live scoring of a tournament that's great for pool if they keep it updated. However if the live scoring is constantly way behind the matches. It would look better to just not have it at all, as that is just annoying to people trying to find out results.
You want to do things in a manner to attract viewers and keep them
happy, not annoy them. Well that is if your intention is to build this sport.
These are just a few things that I think should be looked at if things are going to be changed. I think you need some things to be constant (tables)
and build around those things (rules).
One day this one day that, one week this one week that isn't the way to go. Taking that to the extreme in one tournament they changed from winner break to alternate break, in the middle of the tournament. LOL What a joke!
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I agree with this 100%. If all the pro events started being played on tables that I can never play on, I'd get bored with the disconnect. One of the great things about pool is that the amateur player can make a direct comparison between what he does and what the pros do.
In addition, such a change would give current pros a big advantage over up-and-coming players.
Stop trying to fix what isn't broken. There's nothing wrong with the difficulty level of pro pool. In spite of all the complaints, we can still look at the draw for a major event and have a pretty good idea who the favorites are.
Pool changed from the 10' tables to the 9' tables after many years of major championships played on the 10's. Then in the late 1940's the bar boxes came out...more change. Jump cue allowed...more change. Everyone has thier idea of how pool should be played as a pro. Mine is 10' table with 4 1/8" to 4 1/4" procut pockets and no jump cues. That's what I like watch. Johnnyt
I agree too. But I think the thing with the 10' tables down at Tunica is that Greg said he just wanted to build a few of them and try it out to see how it went over. They're kinda of amazing, actually -- one piece slates with 40-some-odd leveling points underneath.
Personally, I think 9' Diamond Pros are plenty tough.
Lou Figueroa
I have yet to hear anyone who played on our table say they wish it was tougher. Most say its just right or if anything a little too tight.
One thing I know for sure and that is that whatever table a pro is playing on at the time there is something wrong with it. You might have to wait till they miss to find out what it is but it is there.....
One thing I know for sure and that is that whatever table a pro is playing on at the time there is something wrong with it. You might have to wait till they miss to find out what it is but it is there.....
Re-read what you wrote. It doesn't make sense. You say the reason they aren't running 10 racks is because of the break, which is luck, which is why it's too easy. How is it easy if they aren't running 10 racks?
I think the MAIN point in all of this is that the pros are running racks too easily. Well, that's because they're ****ing great at what they do. And this really only goes for 9 and 10 ball. And what's wrong with seeing a pro run racks?? It's amazing. And just because they make it look easy doesn't mean it is. It takes huge amounts of stamina, high levels of focus, and extreme determination. If everyone in the world was running 10 racks in a row, sure, tables are too easy. But just because a handful of pros can run out like nothing simply proves their mastery. If they want a bigger challenge, tell them to take up biliards or snooker.
Furthermore, my argument about pro sports is about how the equipment doesn't change. You don't see the NBA making hoops higher or tighter simply because a few pros can get 60+ points per game. You don't see strike zones in baseball getting smaller because the pitchers are so accurate.
Your argument about those athletes not being able to do anything to their opponent is also falsely based. Look at golf! You can't shark your opponent. Yet the holes are the same size.