Jerry Forsyth Takes a Stab at Understanding the ABP

[justadub]

Do tell how the APA works? They do not take in $125,000,000 in match dues a year? For 1 million dollars in prizes? Someone said they work with numbers in this thread. What percent return is that to the players of the APA? Does $120,000,000 of that go towards running the leagues? If you could help me understand the complex world of running a pool league it would be greatly appreciated.

I am not bashing the APA. They just seem like they raise alot of money from people playing pool and could organize a pro league. That's all.

I'm sure Scott (or one of the league operators) will be along shortly with better detsils, but suffice it to say you aren't calculating correctly.

First off, APA national only gets a couple dollars per player each week, if that. The rest is collected by and for the individual LO, many of whom pay back part of their share at session end. And this is a business for them, they had to pay a franchise fee for the rights, so they are certainly entitled to try and make a living.

The annual membership does all go to national.

And of course there are expenses, but no one ever wants to think that there are expenses, "hell, they're just running a pool league."

Does the APA make money, sure. But its a business, and a well-run business is supposed to make money. How would funding a pro tour improve their business? In measureable terms?

 

[cardiac kid]

The PBT throughout the '90s.......I know, i know.....there were issues. Let's not start picking through that though please. That was a least a bona fide/recognized tour. That's all I was getting at.

Left my pick in someones heart on another thread :grin:! Thanks for the reply.

Lyn

 

[Scott Lee]

kwakaa...A fair question, and one I can easily answer, since I owned an APA franchise for 4 yrs. The first thing for you to understand is that the APA is a PRIVATE ENTERPRISE...in other words, for profit. 2nd...Even if your numbers were correct (which they are not), all that money does not go to the parent company. Do you think the billions that McDonalds takes in every day goes to McDonald's Corporate? Nope...although certainly some does. Same with the APA. 3rd...the original premise of the APA was not designed around a "payback" league (and after 30+ years it's still the same...although there are a few 'money leagues' among some APA LO's). It is a recreational league, mostly for entry level players.

Does APA Corporate take in a lot of money annually? Certainly...they are a very successful company...part of which is dependent on supporting their franchisees pretty well, on a local and national level. The royalties paid by franchisees are fairly standard in the 'franchise industry' (20%). The majority of the annual membership fees do go to the Corporate office. That said, most of the money generated by weekly dues, etc. go back to the league operators, to fund running the leagues. Unlike most of the negative uneducated perspectives of the vocal minority here who do like to bash the APA, it is not free to run the league. There are also monies paid back to local teams/players to attend national events, as well as prizes for regional tournaments, and qualifiers etc. In the end, the league operator is entitled to make a profit (a good one, if they're a good league operator). I don't know anyone who works for free, and personally, with all the whining in the APA, they deserve every penny they make. Now, to address your last point...should Corporate APA add more money to their national events? IMO, yes...but it's no longer my business. They are responsible for running two huge tournaments every year (singles and teams/etc). Running huge tournaments is not free either. They have no interest in "organizing a pro tour", and honestly, with the pros own disorganization, I can understand why they would not want to be involved. IMO they do a pretty good job for what they represent. There's more than one reason why they are still the dominant amateur league on this planet.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Do tell how the APA works? They do not take in $125,000,000 in match dues a year? For 1 million dollars in prizes? Someone said they work with numbers in this thread. What percent return is that to the players of the APA? Does $120,000,000 of that go towards running the leagues? If you could help me understand the complex world of running a pool league it would be greatly appreciated.

I am not bashing the APA. They just seem like they raise alot of money from people playing pool and could organize a pro league. That's all.

 

[Banks]

Do tell how the APA works? They do not take in $125,000,000 in match dues a year? For 1 million dollars in prizes? Someone said they work with numbers in this thread. What percent return is that to the players of the APA? Does $120,000,000 of that go towards running the leagues? If you could help me understand the complex world of running a pool league it would be greatly appreciated.

I am not bashing the APA. They just seem like they raise alot of money from people playing pool and could organize a pro league. That's all.

You think they just set aside every dollar they get? Yeah, that would be freakin sweet if I could do that, too.

Ok, all they need to do is pay employees.. and print manuals.. and advertise.. and pay rent.. and pay utilities.. and pay insurance.. and assist in creating franchises.. and divy that money up with franchisees.. the franchisees must then pay any employees.. and any rent.. and any utilities.. and for any mailings.. let's not forget patches! And trophies! Then there's the Playoff monies from regular season play, in our area we have payouts from Tri-Cups(aka cities, I think?), then payouts from Regionals. They also put on a few small events in our area, too, where they add monies.

So, yeah, I totally see no reason at all why they couldn't host a $100,000,000 APA tournament, or fund a bunch of "pro" players wearing sweatpants and drinking like fish just so that the bunch of "pro" players have a reason for playing.

If I saw pro players rolling through town, dropping in on the random league night to put themselves out there and show people a thing or two, I'd think about it in a more positive light. Instead, we get some group of whothehellknowswhat coming on AZB, threatening tournament organizers, not responding to jack, kissing their own butts, yadda yadda yadda.. is that what you want the APA players to support? Some jerkwad that lies to everybody(including his own "members").. you know what, I could go on and on.. but, I hope I answered the question.

If they're making so much, why can't the "pro" players or one of the knowitalls on here start up a league and make billions and fund every "pro" out there? We always hear about how much they're making.. heck, CW can't even hire a lawyer for his 3-ring circus, much less keep a website active. But, I need to pay extra dues for him to ignore questions from us lowly leaguers and act like a king? I got two words.. ???? that.

 

[kwakaa]

well

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

[Scott Lee]

kwakaa...No, what the APA does is provide what is for most members, a fun, if not challenging, reasonably priced, weekly social interaction, which happens to occur on a pool table. It's entertainment for most APA players, and they enjoy it.

Now...I am officially appointing you the OFFICIAL AzB investigator, in charge of inquiring about pro pool sponsorship from Phyzer and CVS...heck might as well throw in Walgreens too! Report back to us, when you have secured sponsorship, for further instructions.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

So the APA is eliminated as a choice for sponsoring a pro pool tour. They can keep all their money they have earned from the game of pool cause they are a business and owe nothing to anyone.

What other organized pool businesses are out there to organize a pro pool tour?

Has anyone thought of sponsorship from pharmasutical companies or drug stores.

Phyzer, CVS...they make more money then the APA.

 

[NickV]

Now...I am officially appointing you the OFFICIAL AzB investigator, in charge of inquiring about pro pool sponsorship from Phyzer and CVS...heck might as well throw in Walgreens too! Report back to us, when you have secured sponsorship, for further instructions.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

lol, I approve and second this motion.

 

[JCIN]

So the APA is eliminated as a choice for sponsoring a pro pool tour. They can keep all their money they have earned from the game of pool cause they are a business and owe nothing to anyone.

What other organized pool businesses are out there to organize a pro pool tour?

Has anyone thought of sponsorship from pharmasutical companies or drug stores.

Phyzer, CVS...they make more money then the APA.

No.

No one has ever thought of seeking outside sponsorship for pro pool events.

With crazy out of the box ideas like that you might just fix this whole thing.

 

[JCIN]

Great interviews by Jerry. Confirmation in my mind that the ABP is basically a rudderless ship. They dont really know what they want (besides more money), don't really know how to get it and don't really know who is on their team.

Several parts of that article had me laughing pretty good. Jerry does a hell of an interview.

 

[banged up]

I agree with most here that the abp is a "rudderless ship" from what i have seen. At the end of the day i can't imagine any player organization would be looked upon favorably by promoters regardless of organization goals etc. they would be contrary to promoter interests by nature. That being said I think pool is doomed to the same mediocrity it has suffered for a long long time.

 

[kwakaa]

no ty

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

[Island Drive]

No Response Second Try

Kwakaa

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What???????????????

And I quote your above thread....

"And they invented Bonus Ball"

Who is THEY????????????????

 

[Chicagoplayer]

there has only been one vehicle...

I do not accept this position.

Investigator =/= venture capitalist

____________________________________________________

...that has had a lasting and positive impact on our pool community-
and that's
film

it's about us, for us by us
"Raising the Hustler"

 

[kwakaa]

the APB = THEY

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

[itsfroze]

Only problem is they (ABP) didn't start Bonus Ball!

 

[Island Drive]

All the They's were referring to the APB org.

So your saying the ABP pros invented Bonus Ball? Where did you get that information from?

 

[NickV]

All the They's were referring to the APB org.

I nominate you as lead investigator into all things "Pro Pool". Gather information for a year, write a summary, and ponder it.

 

[Celtic]

Things that stood out.

Dennis Walsh gave me the most current membership list available.
12) Corey Deuel
17) Mike Dechaine

(Eds. Note: When we interviewed them both Corey Deuel and Mike Dechaine said they were not members of the ABP.)

Jerry Forsyth: Can we know what that formula is and how you combine all those things?

Joel Pope: It will be, yes.

Jerry: But it is not now.

Joel Pope: It is not finalized at this point.

Johnny Archer: He didn't go away from the rules. He had put them in wrong to start with. Our rules are actually the 2nd day. The alternate break was supposed to be the way it started. It was a mess-up the way it started.

Jerry Forsyth: I thought your rules were winner break.

Johnny Archer: Well, whatever it was, the opposite was supposed to be the way to go. There was a mix-up and so we changed it and we all changed it and went to it the 2nd day. It was a mix-up.

Quite brutal, Johnny Mr. President Archer did not even KNOW what the ABP rules were SUPPOSED to be...

Joel Pope: At the end of the day the important thing is that the process of seeding occurs. That's the important thing to the ABP. Seeding happens in a fair and open fashion. That's the end of the road. That's what the desire of the ABP is.

Jerry Forsyth: Well, again, that's really good for your top-ranked players that they are seeded. But how does that help the middle of the packers?

Johnny: Well, they need to try to fight to get to their seed.

Jerry Forsyth: They will say the same thing about you, you need to fight the first round the same way they do.

Johnny Archer: Why?

Jerry Forsyth: They all pay the same entry fee.

Johnny Archer: Even though we would like it to still be a regional event. We're not forced to go but yeah we need to go if it is a Mosconi Cup ranking event. Really, the rankings and seeding and points, the only things we players really care about is the Mosconi Cup. That's what we play all year for.
<snip>
Me personally as a whole I could care less whether I'm ranked 15 or 20th or 100th on the BCA system.

^^^Welcome to a key problem with American pool right there.^^^ That is why most players do not compete overseas or in events where they cannot get MC ranking points.

Jerry Forsyth: Are you going to put points on events overseas?

Johnny Archer: No.

Jerry Forsyth: Then why are you an international players organization?

Johnny Archer: We're not. We invite them if they want to join us.

Why? Because it gives the ABP more credence having "Efren Reyes" as a member?

Jerry Forsyth: Who are your current officers?

Johnny Archer: Myself, President; Rodney Morris, Vice President; 2nd Vice President Sean Putnam; Treas/Sec Oscar Dominguez; Board members are Thorsten Hohman, Mike Davis, Charlie Williams, Mika Immomem, John Schmidt, Shane van Boening, and Stevie Moore. You got a couple international guys and them are the ones that play over here often.

Jerry Forsyth: And what are their terms of office?

Johnny Archer: There are no terms. We've never had terms or anything.

<snip>

Jerry Forsyth: Are you a board member of the ABP? A member at all?

Deuel: Not any more. I was a board member. I don't know the exact reason. I guess some of the guys didn't want me on it anymore.

No terms, just subjective removal of people at the whim of the ABP?

Mike Dechaine: The BCA and WPA could work together better to protect the pros. Our travel schedules are all crazy with trips zig-zagging the world. They need to structure events so we could spend some time in one area before moving to the next. It is crazy now.

THAT there is a really smart comment. If pool actually did this, if it concentrated a few events in one area (aka a month of tournaments in Asia, then a month in Europe, then a month in North America, ect...) and limited the amount of travel and 10+ hour flights that could REALLY help the players and thus the sport.

Best comment in the entire writeup, best idea to TRULY help pool, and it is by a guy that is not even in the ABP but clearly has more common sense on things that might actually progress the sport. If only the ABP had guys like this in their organization and were pushing for ideas like this to become a reality by working WITH the WPA, BCA, and promoters.

 

[jimmyg]

It's not even funny, it's a pure embarrassment. :embarrassed2:

J

 

[kwakaa]

it already exists...its AZ billiards

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx