Pro Pool players courting disaster

[jasonlaus]

These guys won't affect any tournaments much, the crowd goes to see a select few period - put Keith, Earl, Efren, Dennis or Shane on a table and 95% of the crowd will be watching that match. The rest just don't have that STAR POWER these guys have. Add CJ, Hatch and a few guys like Daulton and I never need to see another player. No Offense to the BB guys but most of the list isn't that entertaining, great players yes.

I wanna see a show, not guys sitting in chairs with no expression on their face. Pool was great during fats/mosconi - those guys hated each other LOL
Pool needs rivalry not suits and ties. The greatest years of pool were after The Hustler and TCOM, people love the seedy side of pool - this is America, people love a villian

Best of luck to all the Pro's your audience is shrinking but we still support you

Jason<---likes to watch Cory play too

 

[Fatboy]

These guys won't affect any tournaments much, the crowd goes to see a select few period - put Keith, Earl, Efren, Dennis or Shane on a table and 95% of the crowd will be watching that match. The rest just don't have that STAR POWER these guys have. Add CJ, Hatch and a few guys like Daulton and I never need to see another player. No Offense to the BB guys but most of the list isn't that entertaining, great players yes.

I wanna see a show, not guys sitting in chairs with no expression on their face. Pool was great during fats/mosconi - those guys hated each other LOL
Pool needs rivalry not suits and ties. The greatest years of pool were after The Hustler and TCOM, people love the seedy side of pool - this is America, people love a villian

Best of luck to all the Pro's your audience is shrinking but we still support you

Jason<---likes to watch Cory play too

Keith and Earl in no particular order will put more asses in seats than the rest of the field combined. Cornbread could as well(I only saw him in real life once). This is exactly what Ronnie OSullivan says about snooker, were a bunch of nameless faceless people playing a boring game-or something like that, he is fun to watch cause he makes a 12' look like a sloppy bar box.

 

[CJ Wiley]

A business can't pay out more than it takes in and be successful, it's impossible.

Rodman Wanamaker was not a pro, rather he was a patron and a very fine businessman. If pool had a similar patron that the pros cooperated with pool might (a big "might" imo) have a chance. And to this day the PGA Tour is managed by professional managers :

http://www.pgatour.com/company/executive_bios.html

Yes it is a players organisation but they have the wisdom to hire business pros to run the tour business. It is a model that works, and I hope that some day the pool world will follow suit.

Dave

Pros drive the marketing/advertising, not by being in that business, by representing the products like Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan and some of the top NASCAR drivers make a reported 20 Million + off merchandising alone. However, the guys that write THEIR checks are what we call WEALTHY.....like Chris Rock says "there's a difference between "rich" and "wealthy".....

My points are very simple and it's about the Business Model of pool, that's the root cause of the failure through the years. A business can't pay out more than it takes in and be successful, it's impossible.....that means it's NOT POSSIBLE! The Professional Pool example is the "sample example" of this being True.

Take a tournament with 100 Players (I'll use round numbers for this example) that has $50,000 Added (considered a "Major) and a $500 Entry Fee.

The Average Expenses per player is $1000. (room, food, travel, etc) + Entry Fee for a total of $1500 per players which totals $150,000 total to have the tournament.

The Entree fees add up to $50,000 and the added is $50,000 which equals 100k.

This means at the end of the tournament there's a $50,000 Net Loss AND only 16 of these players make their money back and maybe some profit (depending on prize money breakdown)....the higher you finish the more profit you make of course. The top 5 are only ones that make enough to last another month of expenses....maybe.

So the tournament loses 50k and over 70% of the players lose money..AND there's no TV to benefit promoting the Game to the general public... this a GOOD BUSINESS MODEL???.....it's not, it's a model for failure, and that's what has happened to pool over the last 13 years.....it's been a failure (although some have done well, the majority has not, and the entire industry is down 40% as a result).

Why not take 8 of our most marketable players and add $30,000 with NO ENTRY FEE....the players will make an average of almost 4,000 and you can make first 10k or whatever makes sense, so last place makes at least $1000.

Take the other $20,000 and BUY TV TIME in a barter deal and GET IT ON TV, even if it's local channels and pay professionals to handle the marketing/advertising and "character development". This is what the industry should be doing if it really wants to pull the game out of it's depression....but it doesn't? I wonder why?

It's so simple to do, and at the end of the tournament everyone would be winner and the game would be broadcast out to many people that are unfamiliar that pool's even an entertainment option. DVD's could be made, streaming could be added later, etc.

Of course there's details that I didn't include, however, I could even write this business plan....but I wouldn't, I'd get friends that are attorneys, CPAs and Pro Marketers to do it and make the "Blue Print" as professionally done as possible. I would stick to what I do best....PLAY POOL. If we did this for a year it would have an immediate, lasting effect on the Game........the "Master Game".

Here's a Link to a TV Show like I'm suggesting on ESPN it was a HUGE commercial for Pool

'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[Sandman]

Once again professional pool players (particularly those in America) are getting ready to shoot themselves in the foot. This is nothing new, a little history is in order.

Thirty years ago a promoter named Richie Florence produced a series of high dollar tournaments ($75-150,000 each) at various Caesars World properties. All these events had the final three matches televised on ESPN. At his last event in 1984 at Caesars Palace the pro players refused to sign the required television releases and the shows never aired. Earl won that tournament nearly 30 years ago and the first prize was $25,000! That was the last tournament Richie ever produced. He had lost all his sponsorship.

Twenty years ago, yours truly produced the first Los Angeles Open. The total prize money was $140,000. Earl also won that one for a $21,000 first prize. Peg Ledman won the women's division for $10,000. The following year, the men players (led by Don Mackey) boycotted the Los Angeles Open and refused to play. I held it anyway, with three divisions, Bank Pool, One Pocket and 9-Ball. The total prize money was $160,000 and Mark Tadd won $27,000! That was the last year for the Los Angeles Open.

Five years later, the men's tour (MPBA, still led by Mackey) sued R.J. Reynolds, the producers of the Camel Pro Tour. Camel was prepared to up the ante for much bigger events, doubling the prize money per event from $75,000 to $150,000. The Bonus money would be increased from $300,000 (yes you read that right) to $500,000! Following the initiation of the law suit, Camel shut down the tour the following year and let Mackey and Co. produce the last five events. NO money was paid out for the final five tournaments! The players, who were backing the wrong horse again, got stiffed!

Now we come to present time. Two tireless promoters who produce some of the most important events in the USA are having their events threatened by a fledgling organization led by someone completely new to the pro pool scene. And the players are buying it! What could happen if the pro players do not support these two totally honorable promoters (Greg Sullivan and Mark Griffin) is they are in danger of losing these events. If they chose to bypass these upcoming tournaments to participate in a venture that is tenuous at best and unlikely to succeed in the future, then they could lose three of the most important events of the year.

Both Greg and Mark do not have to produce major pool tournaments. It is a labor of love for them. They are both old school pool guys who have their heart in the right place when it comes to our sport. Besides that they pay out (on time!) hundreds of thousands of dollars in prize money every year. The players, by showing their disloyalty, are in danger of losing these events. And for what, a new tour that can't seem to get off the ground and then chooses to start right on top of two of the biggest events of the year in the USA.

All I have to say to the professional players is think long and hard about the decisions you make in June and July. You could find yourself with an empty dance card if you don't!

Tap... tap... tap...

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

Jason, good post and I agree with you until you said that pool doesn't need suits and ties.

Yes it does. People and specially young kids are very much fashion conscious these days than when I was growing up.

Maybe not suits and ties but casual and a dress shirt. Look how classy the snooker players are. They make it look like a gentlemens game.

I have watched many streams where the players are wearing shorts, shirts hanging out
and shuffling around the table in sandals. Real classy, although Its probably hot where they live, they most likely have air con in the pool room.

I recently received a DVD from CJ. Wow, he filmed the entire video with a suit on.

I imagine that he understands. Very classy.

I can fully understand your other part as well. I used to love the seedy part of pool and being a part of it. I mean by that, the
Old school rooms, the hard wood floors that creaked under foot and the smell of cigar smoke.

To this day, if I travel, I seek out the old school rooms instead of the family rec centres.

But, we are talking ushering in a new era and I believe with that, how the players are viewed and perceived are an important part of the show.

Hey, if you are in Vegas playing, who cares but if ESPN or another network get their ears perked up again, they don't want their viewing audience to have to watch elephants lumbering around the table in their waddling shoes.

Look at BB, at the very least, the players have on dress slacks and team jerseys. You'll probably see some of that rivalry
happening as well.

 

[book collector]

I agree that the BB and tournament dates conflicting is not the best scenario.
None of the participants are stupid , so it must be something that could not be helped.
I doubt that the loss of the 36 players on the teams will make that huge of an impact.
They are all great players, but there are tons of great players nowaday.
Hopefully , next year they will work together so that they can all benefit as much as possible.
If , as some people on here seem to think , these 36 players not going to the next tournament is going to kill the tour and possible television contracts etc., then I would have to question whether it was worth saving.
{I would also like to hear that thought from Greg Sullivan }
I think competition is what brings out the best in everyone and I believe that the participants will find a way to "grow" pool if it is possible.
It may be, that it is still not viable on tv or for corporate sponsors, for whatever reasons and they will also find that out, and pool will become, what it will become.
I know a lot of pros , so I wish the best for them.
I don't know how other people feel , but watching a tournament on tv versus being there is day and night.
I love to go and watch and bs with people, I watch matches at the pool rooms all the time , even if they aren't champions .
I can't watch a match on tv to save my life.
Maybe someone will want to do a poll, if most people are like me, that would explain why tv {and more importantly, sponsors} don't want to invest.

 

[CJ Wiley]

I"m advised "don't start chopping until the axe has been sharpened".

Thank you CJ for your contributions to this forum. I, for one, would like to see you out there competing again. You're older and wiser, actually a prime age to be successful as a player. And it's not a matter of money for you, we both know that. I'm hoping to see you in Tunica wearing your battle gear! :wink:
I have extended you an invitation to play in the Bigfoot Ten Ball Challenge. You would be a welcome addition to the field. Dust off that stroke and come and get after it. You always were among the fiercest competitors out there. Don't wait until you're too old, like Sigel did. I know you're itching to play. What better opportunity then next month in Tunica? You are and always will be a pool player, so don't forget that. Life is the teacher!

Over and out! :grin:

Thanks, Jay, and I, for one remember the tournaments you put on in LA, especially the one at the Burbank Hilton. I played Bustemante there, it may have been his first major tournament in the US, and there must have been 500 (or more) people that night.

You know the power of promotion, and TV, you've been involved in many Televised events in your career, that's for sure. My opinion is if the event isn't televised it's doing little for the game, or the industry, it's just "another tournament". I wish that would change, but it won't, the Game, to me desperately wants to be Showcased again.

Even if everything went well and I won the tournament it doesn't seem like much would change. Some would say I was "lucky," others would say "he can't do it again," and at the end of the day things would go back to normal within a couple of weeks....I could be wrong.

I'm not sure if I'll come to Tunica or not, I went last year, but it was more to interview Earl for the documentary, not to play (although I did). Without TV the tournament seemed unexciting to me, and that's just me, I always got geared up to play for the big money matches and/or the TV Exposure - otherwise I'm challenging to motivate.

I'll make up my mind in the next week or two, I've got a lot of "irons in the fire" here in Dallas/Ft. Worth and it's 50/50 that I go right now, I wish I felt more enticed, but I don't.

I appreciate you Jay, and I know you are rooting for the success of the professional game, we just believe the model's flawed and it MUST be fixed first, or nothing will change. I"m advised "don't start chopping until the axe has been sharpened"...whatever that means :wink:.....Aloha

 

[jasonlaus]

Jason, good post and I agree with you until you said that pool doesn't need suits and ties.

Yes it does. People and specially young kids are very much fashion conscious these days than when I was growing up.

Maybe not suits and ties but casual and a dress shirt. Look how classy the snooker players are. They make it look like a gentlemens game.

I have watched many streams where the players are wearing shorts, shirts hanging out
and shuffling around the table in sandals. Real classy, although Its probably hot where they live, they most likely have air con in the pool room.

I recently received a DVD from CJ. Wow, he filmed the entire video with a suit on.

I imagine that he understands. Very classy.

I can fully understand your other part as well. I used to love the seedy part of pool and being a part of it. I mean by that, the
Old school rooms, the hard wood floors that creaked under foot and the smell of cigar smoke.

To this day, if I travel, I seek out the old school rooms instead of the family rec centres.

But, we are talking ushering in a new era and I believe with that, how the players are viewed and perceived are an important part of the show.

Hey, if you are in Vegas playing, who cares but if ESPN or another network get their ears perked up again, they don't want their viewing audience to have to watch elephants lumbering around the table in their waddling shoes.

Look at BB, at the very least, the players have on dress slacks and team jerseys. You'll probably see some of that rivalry
happening as well.

I think it needs a mix of both. At times 100% agree clean it up(you can still talk s*£+) with a suit on, other times at least make it semi casual(sponsor) on the shirt. Great points!!!

I for one love a guy talking s*£+ with a suit on

 

[jay helfert]

Thanks, Jay, and I, for one remember the tournaments you put on in LA, especially the one at the Burbank Hilton. I played Bustemante there, it may have been his first major tournament in the US, and there must have been 500 (or more) people that night.

You know the power of promotion, and TV, you've been involved in many Televised events in your career, that's for sure. My opinion is if the event isn't televised it's doing little for the game, or the industry, it's just "another tournament". I wish that would change, but it won't, the Game, to me desperately wants to be Showcased again.

Even if everything went well and I won the tournament it doesn't seem like much would change. Some would say I was "lucky," others would say "he can't do it again," and at the end of the day things would go back to normal within a couple of weeks....I could be wrong.

I'm not sure if I'll come to Tunica or not, I went last year, but it was more to interview Earl for the documentary, not to play (although I did). Without TV the tournament seemed unexciting to me, and that's just me, I always got geared up to play for the big money matches and/or the TV Exposure - otherwise I'm challenging to motivate.

I'll make up my mind in the next week or two, I've got a lot of "irons in the fire" here in Dallas/Ft. Worth and it's 50/50 that I go right now, I wish I felt more enticed, but I don't.

I appreciate you Jay, and I know you are rooting for the success of the professional game, we just believe the model's flawed and it MUST be fixed first, or nothing will change. I"m advised "don't start chopping until the axe has been sharpened"...whatever that means :wink:.....Aloha

Thanks CJ. Possibly you weren't aware that the matches Accu-Stats records are televised, all over Asia! I have been in the Philippines and sat in my hotel room and watched many of these matches on TV there. They've even shown One Pocket and Banks, and full length matches. I've been told these same matches air on other networks in many other Asian countries, plus Australia and other places. I suspect the audience is far greater than ever achieved on ESPN. I know that shows I've worked on in Manila have had audience ratings well into the millions. So don't think for a minute that the key matches of this tournament are not televised, because they are!

 

[Fatboy]

in general in America sport on TV thats been successful has one common denominator "The participants are star's". Look Hulk Hogan, in WWF-they sold more drama than sport. Look at UFC a recent(last 10 years) monster success Chuck Lidell, Rampage Jackson, Golf-Dont need to mention those names again, Baseball Reggie Jackson, BasketBall MJ/Shaq/Kobe. Even when the Olympics are on in America they tell a back story of the athlete (they dont in Europe as much if at all).

Point is if the players are the stars people will watch the "Sport" dumb or otherwise because they are interested in who they are watching, not what they are watching. Sell the players not the game. TAR does that, and it works. Thats a small scale plan that could be scaled up if JCIN wanted to.


If the there is no human interest there is no audience-in america, in the PI they mite watch pool cause its pool(i dont know never been there) Hardcore pool people will sweat a pool match-dont care who is playing. but that's a fraction of whats necessary to fill seats and have a viable business.

Imagine watching UFC, guys pounding the hell out of each other and not knowing their names. That might work on the gore value of the sport. but pool like golf is kinda lame to watch. I'm tired of hearing "He needs a angle on this shot, he dont want to get straight on he purple ball so he can get shape on the orange 5" nobody knows what even means, yet pool on TV you hear that 110 each match "He dont want to be straight", the people watching couldnt set uo a straight in shot if you handed them the CB. Just like i cant trow a free throw.

 

[CJ Wiley]

When ESPN is at a tournament {or going to be} there's a "buzz" all around

Thanks CJ. Possibly you weren't aware that the matches Accu-Stats records are televised, all over Asia! I have been in the Philippines and sat in my hotel room and watched many of these matches on TV there. They've even shown One Pocket and Banks, and full length matches. I've been told these same matches air on other networks in many other Asian countries, plus Australia and other places. I suspect the audience is far greater than ever achieved on ESPN. I know that shows I've worked on in Manila have had audience ratings well into the millions. So don't think for a minute that the key matches of this tournament are not televised, because they are!

I was aware of that through my good friend Dave Thomson....it's just not the same as ESPN or Fox Sports. Nothing against Accu Stats, it's done very professionally and a first class broadcast. Maybe if I was doing commentary it would more interesting.

We actually did commentary on a match together last year Jay, that was fun, just never heard another word about it. I believe it's not about the pool match, it's about the Show, the characters, and the personalities built up on and off the table.

When ESPN is at a tournament {or going to be} there's a "buzz" all around, and we feel the excitement building all the way up to the first televised match. The players are dressed up, the crowd is enthusiastic and the entire atmosphere seems "Larger Than Life".

This is what the highest level of competition {of the Game} is all about {to me}, and what we miss and desperately need back as soon as possible. 'The Game is the Teacher'.com

 

[Fatboy]

Dave Thompson is aces, good guy!!! is a bit under the radar but good man in pool.

 

[Diamond69]

These guys won't affect any tournaments much, the crowd goes to see a select few period - put Keith, Earl, Efren, Dennis or Shane on a table and 95% of the crowd will be watching that match. The rest just don't have that STAR POWER these guys have. Add CJ, Hatch and a few guys like Daulton and I never need to see another player. No Offense to the BB guys but most of the list isn't that entertaining, great players yes.

I wanna see a show, not guys sitting in chairs with no expression on their face. Pool was great during fats/mosconi - those guys hated each other LOL
Pool needs rivalry not suits and ties. The greatest years of pool were after The Hustler and TCOM, people love the seedy side of pool - this is America, people love a villian

Best of luck to all the Pro's your audience is shrinking but we still support you

Jason<---likes to watch Cory play too

The thing to remember about star power is that the stars change. Did everyone stop watching basketball when Michael Jordan retired? Did baseball survive after Mickey Mantle left? Stars just came in and replaced them. As good as them? Maybe not, but people found new stars to root for.

There are many "bangers" out there that may become stars once they start showing up on the leader boards because of pros not coming due to BB. There are some that have class, character, looks, stroke, risk takers, etc that when people see them, will become fans. SVB didn't have any fans 10 years ago. Look at him now.

If a "banger" does well with competition a little lower without 50 pros, he now has some $ and confidence to hit up the next tourney. Very few people will say he just won because so and so wasn't there. And I guarantee you he won't care. A couple good showings, and he's one of the new star power guys.

 

[peteypooldude]

It's my understanding ... And I could be wrong as I've been many times but
from what I've gathered BB players have "stand ins" and are free to go to whatever event they choose. That's pretty amazing in the world of pool. Most I've seen seem to try control their players and I think BB deserves a nod for not only not interfering with the players but making options available for them from the beginning. To me that's a great start.

 

[jay helfert]

I was aware of that through my good friend Dave Thomson....it's just not the same as ESPN or Fox Sports. Nothing against Accu Stats, it's done very professionally and a first class broadcast. Maybe if I was doing commentary it would more interesting.

We actually did commentary on a match together last year Jay, that was fun, just never heard another word about it. I believe it's not about the pool match, it's about the Show, the characters, and the personalities built up on and off the table.

When ESPN is at a tournament {or going to be} there's a "buzz" all around, and we feel the excitement building all the way up to the first televised match. The players are dressed up, the crowd is enthusiastic and the entire atmosphere seems "Larger Than Life".

This is what the highest level of competition {of the Game} is all about {to me}, and what we miss and desperately need back as soon as possible. 'The Game is the Teacher'.com

FYI, Accu-Stats is producing "broadcast" quality shows, with the equipment they currently have. Otherwise they would not be airing all over the world. I have seen their shows on ESPN Star Asia, a huge network, with audiences in the millions. If you are looking to be seen by many people, it doesn't get any bigger than that in the pool world. Actually the U.S. market is small by comparison, with rarely a million people watching any one show.

I've worked on Solar Sports in the Philippines, where they had several million viewers for every match! Of course, the Mosconi Cup that you were a part of on SkySports had perhaps the largest audiences of all. That even get some airing on Fox over here. Yes, it's true, Sky makes a bigger show out of it, but believe me when I tell you that the Accu-Stat productions reach just as many homes and eyes. An American player can become well known in Asia if he plays in that arena enough. That can translate into "money" too if he/she is smart.

Bottom line, Accu-Stats today is "television," not just DVD's.

 

[Paul Schofield]

I don't think that pros are courting disaster and I don't think it would be smart for the leaders of our industry to have a conference and agree on a direction for our sport. It is no secret that regulation table pocket billiards is struggling. A struggling envoronment is an ideal stage for competition for a winning direction. At this time our sport needs many BB type ideas, visionaries, and risk takers. If there were a number of well funded concepts, one could emerge and prove to be decisively successful. Then our industry could unite.

Our sport is in turmoil. Let the marketplace work its magic. The marketplace knows better than a group of united leaders.

I take half of this back. If Jay Helfert is on the phone with Mark Griffin and Greg Sullivan every day and Jay says that the pros are courting disaster, Jay must know something that everyone else doesn't.

 

[alstl]

A great way for pool tournaments to draw crowds would be for vegas to get involved with placing odds on the players similar to snooker. It seems like a natural relationship, a game known for gambling and Vegas hooking up.

Unfortunately Vegas doesn't trust the players.

I watched a tournament on a live stream a few months ago and in the finals a couple well known players who traveled to the tournament together split the cash and didn't put forth their best effort.

Gee, I can't imagine why pool can't find major sponsors. It's a mystery.

 

[RobertaAgnor]

I'm all for anything helping the players so I really do hope Bonus Ball succeeds for their sake. I just hope they keep supporting the promoters & keep playing in the big tournaments. I enjoy the week I get to see them play here every year & hope I continue to see them. I hope Larry is working with or plans on working with the promoters who have been around for years putting on tournament these guys play in year after year. It would be very sad to see these tournaments dry up because the pros can't play because of the BB schedule.

 

[Johnnyt]

What's the worst that can happen here? The 3-5 big tournament promoters stop putting on pro tournaments, Bonus Ball goes in the crapper, and the pros have no where to make a living. I hope that the band of good old boys known as the ABP will start talking/thinking that over. Johnnyt

 

[FordSVTCobra]

I remember attending a few of the Camel Pro Billiards Series Events back in the 90s. I really thought professional pool had a chance with RJ Reynolds sponsoring them. Sadly, that turned out to be a disaster for the players.