So who was in the wrong here? Idk but if Dennis Orcollo the one who bail out on the money game then he not a bad ass money player as I've heard around. I understand that Dennis all about high dollars but if playing for $20,$50,$100 or more.....don't quit cause quitting in middle of the match.........uncall for and no respect.
Pulling up in the middle of a set when score is tied
- Thread starter JAM
- Start date
Dennis was in the wrong.
i know if i played his speed, i'd manage myself much differently than he does. Its a shame he has that gift and is a F up. Aint no excuse or story gonna fix what he did. Christ If I played that speed so what you blow a set, move on. hell at my speed thats what i do, if i pick a bad game.
CreeDo,
With the utmost respect...
I disagree with you on this one.
DO agreed to a gambling match. As soon as the match was agreed upon and started, all of the cash no longer belonged to either player, until somebody won it by finishing the set.
Obviously, DO realized he was in a tough situation, but that doesn't make it right to sneak out of it. That was his opportunity to refocus, start playing smarter, and appreciate the challenge he had before him. If he "knew" he was in jeopardy of losing the match, then he needed to step up his play and win it back. Besides, it's not like he was down 13-0. He had just tied up the match!
I have played against my local short stop, and even though I've won a few matches (with and without spots), I know where I stand. Let's say I've won 2 of 8 matches, with many of them going to hill-hill.
I KNOW this guy is much better than me. I KNOW he was "letting me win" a match or two. I KNOW how many games I need on the wire. But I knew these things all along, as we negotiated the spots.
I am a little bit crazy, but not enough to believe that I could beat him regularly.
We matched up, and with the small spots he gave me (1 or 2 games on the wire), I believed I had a good chance of winning (and I did win, twice!). And I also know he was "barely" winning, just to keep my hopes up and my cash flowing.
However...
He never pulled up on me, and I never pulled up on him. Either situation would have been ridiculous.
We all make our own games, our own destinies. If there is no trust in the game, then we have nothing.
What Dennis did is forgivable, but not forgettable. It was wrong.
-Blake
With the utmost respect...
I disagree with you on this one.
DO agreed to a gambling match. As soon as the match was agreed upon and started, all of the cash no longer belonged to either player, until somebody won it by finishing the set.
Obviously, DO realized he was in a tough situation, but that doesn't make it right to sneak out of it. That was his opportunity to refocus, start playing smarter, and appreciate the challenge he had before him. If he "knew" he was in jeopardy of losing the match, then he needed to step up his play and win it back. Besides, it's not like he was down 13-0. He had just tied up the match!
I have played against my local short stop, and even though I've won a few matches (with and without spots), I know where I stand. Let's say I've won 2 of 8 matches, with many of them going to hill-hill.
I KNOW this guy is much better than me. I KNOW he was "letting me win" a match or two. I KNOW how many games I need on the wire. But I knew these things all along, as we negotiated the spots.
I am a little bit crazy, but not enough to believe that I could beat him regularly.
We matched up, and with the small spots he gave me (1 or 2 games on the wire), I believed I had a good chance of winning (and I did win, twice!). And I also know he was "barely" winning, just to keep my hopes up and my cash flowing.
However...
He never pulled up on me, and I never pulled up on him. Either situation would have been ridiculous.
We all make our own games, our own destinies. If there is no trust in the game, then we have nothing.
What Dennis did is forgivable, but not forgettable. It was wrong.
-Blake
No shit. As good as he plays, he must have midget nuts to not even attempt to win from 8-8.
Just like the folks that play far better than others, then bark at them and claim 'if you had any heart then you'd have a chance to win'. Truly, the nitty one is he.
Took me a couple days to find it, but let's see how Grady approached a similar situation:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=190259
Argh I keep coming back to this thread.
I dunno why. I apparently can't win this any more than Dennis could win his set
Kickin: I didn't selectively quote to buttress my position, I did it to keep the posts shorter.
Not working out too great so far. Your full post, to me, sounded like:
"Rob didn't do anything wrong because hustling, even if it's sleazy, is an old, longstanding tradition."
My reply boils down to "Just because something is a tradition doesn't make it right".
If I misread that, can you clear it up?
Lone: You talk like dennis figured "easy thousand in my pocket".
Can you really give up the breaks and ball in hand at the tunica action room and think "I'm stealing"?
That's a huge, risky spot. Anyone who can beat the ghost will win that spot.
You don't give that spot up thinking "As long as it's not Alex or Shane I can never lose".
Sure, and dennis chose one of them. So why is he the bad guy? Cuz he got out for only 15%?
One of the things I keep hearing from everyone is "it's just part of the game to negotiate
the BEST POSSIBLE DEAL for yourself." So what did dennis do wrong? Like any good gambler,
he negotiated the best possible deal for himself.
Richie: You said rules are rules. What rules? There apparently are no rules in gambling,
just unspoken assumptions, which other people can twist to their advantage.
Like I assume you're not making an impossible game and simply robbing me, but if I'm wrong, that's my fault.
You assume I won't move a ball when you aren't looking... I guess if I do that to you, it's your fault?
If it's ok for rob to trick dennis, why shouldn't it be ok for me to trick you,
for example by sneaking an extra game on the wire or slugging the rack?
JB: People are trying to get an edge.
But to me there's a difference between an edge and a game that flat out cannot be won.
You say the term "Stealing" is just a figure of speech. IMO that's only true if both sides can win.
If only one side can win, I'd say "Stealing" is not so figurative anymore.
Would you tell someone you need the last 4, when in fact they need the last 4 from you?
Whether he's naive or not, that's a blatant lie and I'm not willing to tell lies to take someone's money.
If you're comfortable with doing that and rationalize it with "Well he would have done the same to me"
or "that's just how the game is played" then I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree.
And that's exactly what dennis did: bought his way out for less. So by your definition he was honorable.
So why do you say he was "in the wrong"?
Slomo: Check rob's original post. He stated flat out dennis had ZERO chance. His words.
Written after the fact, not a cocky statement made before the set began.
And he admitted to giving dennis extra opportunities to keep it close.
The score was not really tied. It was plain and simple a bad game.
You're right, DO agreed to a 'gambling match'. Unfortunately that isn't what he got.
Gamble: a. To bet on an uncertain outcome, as of a contest.
I dunno why. I apparently can't win this any more than Dennis could win his set
Kickin: I didn't selectively quote to buttress my position, I did it to keep the posts shorter.
Not working out too great so far. Your full post, to me, sounded like:
"Rob didn't do anything wrong because hustling, even if it's sleazy, is an old, longstanding tradition."
My reply boils down to "Just because something is a tradition doesn't make it right".
If I misread that, can you clear it up?
Lone: You talk like dennis figured "easy thousand in my pocket".
Can you really give up the breaks and ball in hand at the tunica action room and think "I'm stealing"?
That's a huge, risky spot. Anyone who can beat the ghost will win that spot.
You don't give that spot up thinking "As long as it's not Alex or Shane I can never lose".
Sure, and dennis chose one of them. So why is he the bad guy? Cuz he got out for only 15%?
One of the things I keep hearing from everyone is "it's just part of the game to negotiate
the BEST POSSIBLE DEAL for yourself." So what did dennis do wrong? Like any good gambler,
he negotiated the best possible deal for himself.
Richie: You said rules are rules. What rules? There apparently are no rules in gambling,
just unspoken assumptions, which other people can twist to their advantage.
Like I assume you're not making an impossible game and simply robbing me, but if I'm wrong, that's my fault.
You assume I won't move a ball when you aren't looking... I guess if I do that to you, it's your fault?
If it's ok for rob to trick dennis, why shouldn't it be ok for me to trick you,
for example by sneaking an extra game on the wire or slugging the rack?
JB: People are trying to get an edge.
But to me there's a difference between an edge and a game that flat out cannot be won.
You say the term "Stealing" is just a figure of speech. IMO that's only true if both sides can win.
If only one side can win, I'd say "Stealing" is not so figurative anymore.
Would you tell someone you need the last 4, when in fact they need the last 4 from you?
Whether he's naive or not, that's a blatant lie and I'm not willing to tell lies to take someone's money.
If you're comfortable with doing that and rationalize it with "Well he would have done the same to me"
or "that's just how the game is played" then I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree.
And that's exactly what dennis did: bought his way out for less. So by your definition he was honorable.
So why do you say he was "in the wrong"?
Slomo: Check rob's original post. He stated flat out dennis had ZERO chance. His words.
Written after the fact, not a cocky statement made before the set began.
And he admitted to giving dennis extra opportunities to keep it close.
The score was not really tied. It was plain and simple a bad game.
You're right, DO agreed to a 'gambling match'. Unfortunately that isn't what he got.
Gamble: a. To bet on an uncertain outcome, as of a contest.
Argh I keep coming back to this thread.
I dunno why. I apparently can't win this any more than Dennis could win his set
Gamble: a. To bet on an uncertain outcome, as of a contest.
and to add to the definition
, with the end result being a winner and a loser, according to the arranged terms.Now, if there are extenuating circumstances, like a wife or a child, or a sniviling broke-ass Pinoy, certainly alternate agreements are a possibility.
And certainly, if alternate arrangements are made, both parties will be thusly branded, according to their positions.
Dennis is a welcher. Not debatable and he will ALWAYS carry that stigma with him in his action trails. He carries an additional risk and as good as he plays, that's one tuff action. Only way it gets worse is if you have to fight him at the end.
Guaranteed, a lotta people have shut the door on even attempting to match up with him. A lotta people also know Rob can runout.
Don't know if anybody posted this (not gonna surf through 19 pages) video yet but if not here you go...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ykM-2QLqCwQ#at=70
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ykM-2QLqCwQ#at=70
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Hey Creedo
I guess the thread does pull some of us back in.:smile:
Anyway I sort of wish I had been there to watch it unfold. I tend to think Rob may have overstated Dennis' eagerness to play this game, but who knows.
He may have also overstated how much in control he was, but who knows.
Either way, yes he did a fine job wiggling out of the jam, preceded by posturing and sharking. Followed with persuasion and a little begging, etc.
He lost some face I think with his peers and much more with the average forum member.
As Captain Barbossa emphasized in Pirates of the Carribean, "Keep to the code".
D.O. did not and that is bothersome.
As in the movie the code is not written and is open to interpretation, so people forgive and forget. His action will continue to be good. This will be long forgotten in a few months.
Good day.
I guess the thread does pull some of us back in.:smile:
Anyway I sort of wish I had been there to watch it unfold. I tend to think Rob may have overstated Dennis' eagerness to play this game, but who knows.
He may have also overstated how much in control he was, but who knows.
Either way, yes he did a fine job wiggling out of the jam, preceded by posturing and sharking. Followed with persuasion and a little begging, etc.
He lost some face I think with his peers and much more with the average forum member.
As Captain Barbossa emphasized in Pirates of the Carribean, "Keep to the code".
D.O. did not and that is bothersome.
As in the movie the code is not written and is open to interpretation, so people forgive and forget. His action will continue to be good. This will be long forgotten in a few months.
Good day.
Anyone care to enlighten me about what happens in this video?
I'm half way thru it and so far the plot seems to be:
Dennis wins rack #16 and ties the score 8-8.
Rob starts to rack, but doesn't break.
Dennis leaves the table.
Rob takes some money off the light.
Both players are gone.
Bunch of players walking around.
The only thing that makes any sense is that both players called off the match because they couldn't stand the disco music playing in the background. But maybe there's another explanation.
scroll back and read Rob's original post as to what happened
Having watched the first 30 seconds of the video I will revise my opinion.Dennis unscrewed,winner rob gj,take down the 2k off the light.
..............
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Do you think good old Bob would "keep to the code" and return the favor of giving the same spot to an unknown which he received?
If the code isn't agreed to ahead of time it becomes whatever it is negotiated to be.
Do you know realize that that could be as much as giving him 7 on the wire if he's a B+ player? Not including the games where he'll get subsequent BIH after running out to an ideal safe? And finally, not factoring in that he'll never get 'cold' waiting for DO to finish running multiple racks...
That is a giant spot to B player, and anyone better than that is probably the favorite against anyone unless it's extremely tight equipment.
As far as pulling up because they're even, I've had a couple of asshats do that recently. The first guy, because after I missed a ball when he flailed in front of me when I said, please wait until I finish a shot to move abruptly... which he replied to by telling me that he had a sudden onset of thirst. lol. I said "Try and time it in between my final stroke ey?" He quits. Second guy always seemed to get fidgety when I was slow rolling balls in which he was right in front the object ball... so this time, knowing that I was the favorite in the game I set out to say it as diplomatically as possible. Without even addressing that he had done something, after missing I say, "Let's play tournament style..." He flips out and says that he can't be expected to not move around. lol. I kid you not.
What can you really do about it if someone quits while the score is tied? Obviously not more than if they outright fire an air-barrel. I doubt anyone wants a felony because someone pulls up on a move.
@Creedo
Dennis didn't try to buy out he tried to quit and lose nothing.
As for the spot how is any amateur supposed to know what they really need from a pro? Dennis liked the game and posted the money.
Would I tell someone I need the last four when I could give the last four? No. But if I do ask for weight and the offer is accepted then I expect the game to be played out.
Alternatively if I over spot an opponent then I finish the set or quit and pay off and try negotiate a better spot.
The point you keep missing is that in a money game both players want to win the other guy's money. It simply does not matter if one of them asks for far more weight than he needs for it to be an even game. The other side should know enough to counter and negotiate the spot he feels confident in giving.
You would not even be in the action room except to watch because if you did want to play you would quickly learn the rules of making games does not include showing your résumé to strangers. You can call people liars and con artists if you want to but when everyone involved is trying to get the advantage then playing poker when matching up is expected.
Dennis didn't try to buy out he tried to quit and lose nothing.
As for the spot how is any amateur supposed to know what they really need from a pro? Dennis liked the game and posted the money.
Would I tell someone I need the last four when I could give the last four? No. But if I do ask for weight and the offer is accepted then I expect the game to be played out.
Alternatively if I over spot an opponent then I finish the set or quit and pay off and try negotiate a better spot.
The point you keep missing is that in a money game both players want to win the other guy's money. It simply does not matter if one of them asks for far more weight than he needs for it to be an even game. The other side should know enough to counter and negotiate the spot he feels confident in giving.
You would not even be in the action room except to watch because if you did want to play you would quickly learn the rules of making games does not include showing your résumé to strangers. You can call people liars and con artists if you want to but when everyone involved is trying to get the advantage then playing poker when matching up is expected.
lol. Yeah... I agree -- but I don't always make people post (which I SHOULD have learned from tugwell air-barrelling me).
I actually had someone get pissed and stop gambling with me Mon because on shots that were less than 2" apart and nearly straight in, I relocated 90° degrees to watch the CB react...
Also had someone quit because when I asked him to play "tournament style etiquette" he got offended.