I Bet There Are A few That Could be pro
- Thread starter Johnnyt
- Start date
Howard Vickery was a "Pro" player , traveled the tour for several years, he won a couple of state championships and I believe he won 1or 2 minor tour stops.
He would be considered one of the bottom players at any major tournament within the pro ranks. So if you use him as the benchmark , yes there are probably a e hundred people or more that could be pros.
They would be sleeping in someones car at night and not eating much but they could be there.
Also they would have to be using slugs at the car wash to get entry fee money.
That guy from Italy that does trick shots and Jesse Allred are 2 of the most talented basement players I ever saw, I don't think either one of them can make a living on the tour.
It's great to fantasize about hidden players but the truth is , lots of people play great practicing or playing lambs , but when they play a real player , their game goes way down.
The big reasons are that they don't get as many shots and when they do get one , it is usually tough.
Pros have great ability, confidence and mental toughness, they have seen the best and everyone else looks easy.
Very hard to overcome for Joe working man.
As far as great working players the list has some ringers on it, I know several who did not start working until after they were great players, or their dad owned a business they "worked at" , whenever they weren't playing pool, Is that the same thing?
He would be considered one of the bottom players at any major tournament within the pro ranks. So if you use him as the benchmark , yes there are probably a e hundred people or more that could be pros.
They would be sleeping in someones car at night and not eating much but they could be there.
Also they would have to be using slugs at the car wash to get entry fee money.
That guy from Italy that does trick shots and Jesse Allred are 2 of the most talented basement players I ever saw, I don't think either one of them can make a living on the tour.
It's great to fantasize about hidden players but the truth is , lots of people play great practicing or playing lambs , but when they play a real player , their game goes way down.
The big reasons are that they don't get as many shots and when they do get one , it is usually tough.
Pros have great ability, confidence and mental toughness, they have seen the best and everyone else looks easy.
Very hard to overcome for Joe working man.
As far as great working players the list has some ringers on it, I know several who did not start working until after they were great players, or their dad owned a business they "worked at" , whenever they weren't playing pool, Is that the same thing?
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I was there for 29 cent gas and 19 dollar rooms. The problem was I had a pretty good job at the time for just over 3 dollars an hour too. The money wasn't flowing on either side at the time.
That wraps-up this entire thread very neatly. In fact, I think it's even more evident among women. Many women I know that play B-speed and above have quit to start families. Now, that may not sound like much but you have to remember that many current WPBA touring professionals are about B-speed and better. If qualifying for the WPBA meant winning your region, it would undoubtedly raise the bar for the WPBA to A or better.
If there were million dollar tournaments on a regular basis, playing professional pool would be a logical career choice for many athletic young men. Until that happens pool will remain dominated by men from countries like the Philippines where $10,000 is still a large amount of money and ex snooker players who couldn't quite cut it and the rare young man who gets hooked on the game at a young age, usually by a parent who also plays pool (like Shane).
The IPT in it's brief existence started to bring a lot of good players out of the woodwork. If it had survived a few years, then I'm certain we would have seen many great young players coming up in the game.
The IPT in it's brief existence started to bring a lot of good players out of the woodwork. If it had survived a few years, then I'm certain we would have seen many great young players coming up in the game.
Donny Mills is at or very close to the top of this list, NO DOUBT.
I don't know if anyone playing pro speed at his level has run a buisness since their teen years and played as well as him.
I can certainly relate to that. I can live with it, though, knowing that every one of us will return to obscurity with the passage of enough time.
I can certainly relate to that. I can live with it, though, knowing that every one of us will return to obscurity with the passage of enough time.
In a few generations from now, very few will ever know we even existed
!!!Maniac
I think it comes down to numbers. Do you cut the line at the top 16 players, 32, 64, etc, to call them pros?
We all say that when you are open speed, you can beat anyone at any time. I think that's a myth, and only good for a short race. That never seems to hold up in pro events. All these local heroes we talk about, when they compete on a national level, usually go 2 and out. I'll give a few examples: Matt Krah. He is a great local player in the PA/NJ/DE area. He wins a few regional stops of the Mezz tour, and he plays in every single one. When he goes to the US Open every year, its usually 2 and out. Same thing for lots of PA players I follow. Lee Holt is another one with pretty much the same track record. These guys are all local superstars, but they are truly many levels below the top guys. Another example is the action match today between Hager and Archer. Archer was spotting him 7 games in a race to 22, and wins 22-9. This is a player that people say can beat anyone on any given day. But when he comes against a top pro, he wins 2 games.
The top 10 guys in the US today would still be the top guys, even if there were monthly million dollar tournaments.
When the IPT was out, it certainly brought players out of retirement and out of the woodwork. But they were more like filler material, finishing in last place. The guys who finished in the top 20 of the IPT events were the regular faces.
So what I think would happen if we had lots of money in pool, is it would be just like the IPT tournament if we had traditional 128 man events. Only 25% of the guys would be a real threat to win. The other 25% or so guys would be expected to cash well. And the remaining 50% of the guys would just be filler, significantly below the level of the rest of the field.
I think what should happen if there was huge money in pool (fantasizing now...) is to separate the 128 players in the above scenario into two tiers. The top tier would only be the best 32 players. Then the rest of the other players (again, fantasy numbers here), would compete to get a spot in the 32. Every year, the bottom 8 of the 32 would be replaced by the top 8 in the second tier.
So only the elite of the elite would be the "pro tour" that we fans would support with viewing. The other guys would be trying to get into that elite field every year.
We all say that when you are open speed, you can beat anyone at any time. I think that's a myth, and only good for a short race. That never seems to hold up in pro events. All these local heroes we talk about, when they compete on a national level, usually go 2 and out. I'll give a few examples: Matt Krah. He is a great local player in the PA/NJ/DE area. He wins a few regional stops of the Mezz tour, and he plays in every single one. When he goes to the US Open every year, its usually 2 and out. Same thing for lots of PA players I follow. Lee Holt is another one with pretty much the same track record. These guys are all local superstars, but they are truly many levels below the top guys. Another example is the action match today between Hager and Archer. Archer was spotting him 7 games in a race to 22, and wins 22-9. This is a player that people say can beat anyone on any given day. But when he comes against a top pro, he wins 2 games.
The top 10 guys in the US today would still be the top guys, even if there were monthly million dollar tournaments.
When the IPT was out, it certainly brought players out of retirement and out of the woodwork. But they were more like filler material, finishing in last place. The guys who finished in the top 20 of the IPT events were the regular faces.
So what I think would happen if we had lots of money in pool, is it would be just like the IPT tournament if we had traditional 128 man events. Only 25% of the guys would be a real threat to win. The other 25% or so guys would be expected to cash well. And the remaining 50% of the guys would just be filler, significantly below the level of the rest of the field.
I think what should happen if there was huge money in pool (fantasizing now...) is to separate the 128 players in the above scenario into two tiers. The top tier would only be the best 32 players. Then the rest of the other players (again, fantasy numbers here), would compete to get a spot in the 32. Every year, the bottom 8 of the 32 would be replaced by the top 8 in the second tier.
So only the elite of the elite would be the "pro tour" that we fans would support with viewing. The other guys would be trying to get into that elite field every year.
I don't find this to be any type of revelation at all. I am guessing this holds true for many sports. I mean for some there is most certainly God given talent but there are also just guys that work and work for it. Look at a guy like Shane. Is he at the level he is because he is just naturally good? No he puts in an insane amount of table time and has been doing that for years. Does he have a certain disposition for the game given his family history? Yeah he probably does, but one does not mean much without the other.
Hell I could probably have been a professional Bull Rider, but I was never exposed to that so we will never know. I feel there is alot of natural ability that is probably wasted simply based on a situation someone is born into.
Hell I could probably have been a professional Bull Rider, but I was never exposed to that so we will never know. I feel there is alot of natural ability that is probably wasted simply based on a situation someone is born into.
There's only 2 elite pro pool players from the u.s nowadays. No matter what anyone wants to think, that's SVB and Archer, and Archer is nearing the end of his reign most likely because of age(few more years). They can play with anyone.
Hatch, Henny, Deuel, Dechaine, Schmidt, JJ, Shuff, Compton, Saez, Mills, Bartram, Morris, Earl, etc., all these guys are great players and some of our best from the u.s. but they are definitely not ELITE on a world scale, as where Archer and SVB fit in anywhere and can in rotation which is the main game hold their own against anyone.
Hatch, Henny, Deuel, Dechaine, Schmidt, JJ, Shuff, Compton, Saez, Mills, Bartram, Morris, Earl, etc., all these guys are great players and some of our best from the u.s. but they are definitely not ELITE on a world scale, as where Archer and SVB fit in anywhere and can in rotation which is the main game hold their own against anyone.
Even fantasizing, that's pretty good thinking :thumbup:. I like this idea. Now, if................
Maniac
I disagree. A lot of these guys can play as well as anyone they simply don't have the drive and constant challenges that players from other places do. In the Philippine and in Taiwan they are constantly battling even for small stakes and long sets. They do it to stay sharp and preserve the pecking order. But in the USA people are far away from each other, the lifestyle is way different, and the approach to the game is way different.
Also people are flat out nitty and often won't step up to play a pro cheap even getting hefty weight. So pros in the USA rarely have the opportunity to do that sort of training to stay sharp.
I will agree with you that on a technical level a lot of the foreign pros are probably better because they have been willing to put in the time and go wherever they needed to go to get the seasoning.
Darren's staying the Phillipines and gambling for three months comes to mind. The intense training the Chinese and Taiwanese do, these are all things that do play a factor when it comes to performance over time.
A lot of our younger generation players don't seem to have that level of intensity about their own advancement.
I'm keeping my eyes open for players like Landon Shuffett (one of a few of American youngsters that seem to be taking the SVB approach to pool). If they rise top the top of pool's food chain someday, it will prove that there are many that could do it, if enough time and effort is given to it.
Maniac
No question. about it , none of these guys except Duel is anywhere near world class , and don't give me they don't play , they play all the time ,
Some people believe anyone can practice enough to play like SVB
That is simply no where near the truth
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:scratchhead:
Hmmm...Earl just beat Shane twice in one tournament. Earl has probably the busiest schedule than any other player. He is on the road almost every week out of the year.
Guess I don't know what Elite is.:smile:
Everything you said is valid...There are a lot of poor folks in the world because they haven't funds to go to school. Who's to say if they went to school they'd make it in the real world..not every one will become a world beater.But for those few who try..hey go get it..and I know a few good players that'll say there are hundreds as good if not better then they are..I'll add I don't think there are thousands of top pros out there imo. But like you said..Great players fade into the shadows..I was a master craftman in trade of choice..it took me many years of working an going to school..I never became rich..but working allowed me to play in tourments or travel an play where I wanted to..Think I got lost with what I was trying to say..My main points is..I think mamy could play well givin propper instruction..through practice an tournament play..only if they stick through the tuff beats an learn..The culture that surround pool is rough.
You have many good points..have a good weekend.
This has nothing to do with tournies and phony races to 7 and 9.
I've beat world class players in tournies. It don't mean a thing.
I don't know how old Archer is, but I'm 53. I still play hockey but I can't move anywhere near as well as I could when I was 18. As for pool...my eye sight has not diminished one bit since I was 18, nor has my hand-eye coordination or anything else that factors into my pool playing ability diminished since I was 18.