Full splice vs. A-jointed cues vs. Full Core

nineballsafety8

nineballsafety8

6ft 5" 285, hits 'em hard
Silver Member
I was just curious of some of the experts could try to explain some of the "hit characteristics" of each type of cue construction.

I have played with all 3, and I don't understand why there is so much controversy over which is "best"... I have hit with a cue in each category that all play relatively similarly.
 
A-jointed cues have won more world and US Open titles.

This might be a case of not what but how.
What it is might not be as important as how it was made.
There is no miracle to bad wood and bad workmanship.
 
JoeyInCali said:
A-jointed cues have won more world and US Open titles.

This might be a case of not what but how.
What it is might not be as important as how it was made.
There is no miracle to bad wood and bad workmanship.
Click to expand...

Thanks Joey, I completely agree, and I suppose I should have been a little more specific.

Let's assume that each cue is built WELL, from a premier builder, and the woods used are of the same type, cut from the same lumber, and seasoned in the same fashion (and assembled in similar environments)... a stretch I know. (all shafts are identical)

But if those 3 cues were completed, and then played with side by side.

TYPICALLY... what are the differences that you would expect to see?
 
nineballsafety8 said:
Thanks Joey, I completely agree, and I suppose I should have been a little more specific.

Let's assume that each cue is built WELL, from a premier builder, and the woods used are of the same type, cut from the same lumber, and seasoned in the same fashion (and assembled in similar environments)... a stretch I know. (all shafts are identical)

But if those 3 cues were completed, and then played with side by side.

TYPICALLY... what are the differences that you would expect to see?
Click to expand...

How about listing 5 cue makers\brands that are really famous for their cues' hit?
So famous and sought after, their simple command top dollar.

In your scenario, there is still too much differing variables.
A maple front with purpheleart handle , A-jointed or fullsplice, are not going to be the same as maple front and purpleheart handle with full length maple core in the center. On A-jointed cues, you can add weight in the middle.
Full-splice or full one-piece core , you can't.
Too many variables still I think.
 
JoeyInCali said:
How about listing 5 cue makers\brands that are really famous for their cues' hit?
So famous and sought after, their simple command top dollar.

In your scenario, there is still too much differing variables.
A maple front with purpheleart handle , A-jointed or fullsplice, are not going to be the same as maple front and purpleheart handle with full length maple core in the center. On A-jointed cues, you can add weight in the middle.
Full-splice or full one-piece core , you can't.
Too many variables still I think.
Click to expand...

alright LOL

all 3 cues are as follows

Phenolic joint with SS 3/8 pin
Purpleheart forearm
straight grain maple points (and wrap section)
purple heart butt sleeve
phenolic butt cap

all cues at 19 oz
with an 18.5" balance


how do the hits of the 3 cues differ?
 
Ok, not a cue builder, but I've been shooting with all three types for over 30 years. My clear preference is for a bumperless full splice cue. Most will say in a blind fold test, you can't tell the difference; but I will tell you that I can. I might have some difficulty in telling the difference between a full splice and a merry widow (if made from rosewood or purple heart), but I'd say it's even money that I'd know at some level. For me, there's no substitute in the feedback and feel I get from a full splice bumperless cue.

My issue with half splice cues and A joints is the flat glue surface between the two pieces (and the surfaces of the rings)...a full splice has several feet of glue surface (counting each side of each point on each piece of spliced wood) that aren't flat surfaces perpendicular to the impact, but interlocking. I believe in the long run this is a more consistent, continuous glue surface that will hold up over time and provide maximum vibration and feel. The greatest maker of all time practically invented the A joint, cutting a perfectly executed full splice blank and insterting a Bushka ring, rejoining the sections with a lag bolt. I assume he did it for a forward balance, and most top cue makers have been copying this technique with several variations ever since. I've had two half splice custom cues, both played great, but one had a problem with the A joint...ended up getting a refund over three years later, as it turned out to be a structural flaw in the construction of the cue. That said, half splice cues are far and away the most common custom out there and they do play just fine. I will say that I'm seeing more and more bumperless full splice cues out there on the regional tours and open tournies, though...
 
nineballsafety8 said:
I was just curious of some of the experts could try to explain some of the "hit characteristics" of each type of cue construction.



I have played with all 3, and I don't understand why there is so much controversy over which is "best"... I have hit with a cue in each category that all play relatively similarly.
Click to expand...


In my opinion there are some dominant factors that decide about the hit of a cue:

- balance, weight and weight distribution
- which wood on which part of the cue --> relation between stiffness / hardness / density and resonance characteristics
- diameters, tapers, length of butt and shaft
- ferrule material and construction
- tip

Independent from the construction of the butt i am convinced that it is how exact the different materials fit to each other and the bonding strength that also has an influence to the hit.

Regarding only the construction principles, there is no influence, but i see the risk of a delemination that affects the stiffness and resonance behavior of the butt at the classic A-Joint as the biggest risk. At the opposite it is the A-Joint plus 3-partet butt that allows the most variations in combing different materials.

Using cores in all 3 constructions makes it easier and more distinct to get a certain hit that is pretty similiar from cue to cue.

In my opinion: If all 3 construction principles are done well it is the o. m. dominating factors that have an influence on the hit.
 
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Ken_4fun said:
I think your number is too low.

I am thinking 99.999%

Ken
Click to expand...


My initial thoughts were similar to Bill's in the #9 post. Even given what he wrote, which I agree with, I still stick with my post that most people wouldn't know the difference in feel.
 
West Point 1987 said:
Ok, not a cue builder, but I've been shooting with all three types for over 30 years. My clear preference is for a bumperless full splice cue. Most will say in a blind fold test, you can't tell the difference; but I will tell you that I can. I might have some difficulty in telling the difference between a full splice and a merry widow (if made from rosewood or purple heart), but I'd say it's even money that I'd know at some level. For me, there's no substitute in the feedback and feel I get from a full splice bumperless cue.
Click to expand...

A bumper makes more of a difference than just about everything else combined. If you don't believe me, take yours off and see the night and day difference.
 
nineballsafety8 said:
so there is no difference...?
Click to expand...

Yes, there is but there isn't an easy, straight forward answer.

-I do not think there is a playability advantage to any construction method.
-I do think there is a difference in feel/feedback.

That difference can be influenced or even negated by other variables such as joint collars, pin/insert, wraps, bumpers, balance point, tip, etc.

I think you (or any player) need to ask yourself what you want a cue to feel like then find the construction method and combination fits that vision.



**side note- you can take two seemingly identical cues and one will feel good and the other not so much. Why? Because its wood...
 
pescadoman said:
A bumper makes more of a difference than just about everything else combined. If you don't believe me, take yours off and see the night and day difference.
Click to expand...

Yep. I read somewhere that Brunswick first started putting bumpers on cues not for the reason we would assume (protecting the cue from banging the floor), but as a "vibration-dampener"...kind of like those "limb-saver" attachments that were marketed about 15 years ago. The first time I tried a bumperless full splice cue (yes, I recognize the bumperless part is significant), I fell in love. I kind of said, "so this is what a cue is supposed to feel like..." :smile:
 
joeyincal

On A-jointed cues, you can add weight in the middle.
Full-splice or full one-piece core , you can't.


i'm not too sure if that statement is totally correct.

chuck starkey
 
desi2960 said:
On A-jointed cues, you can add weight in the middle.
Full-splice or full one-piece core , you can't.


i'm not too sure if that statement is totally correct.

chuck starkey
Click to expand...

On a full core..... you can add weight under the joint screw and the in the rear to even it out..................

Kim
 
desi2960 said:
On A-jointed cues, you can add weight in the middle.
Full-splice or full one-piece core , you can't.


i'm not too sure if that statement is totally correct.

chuck starkey
Click to expand...

That is the big advantage of A-jointed cues.
You can put the weight at or near the neutral area.
The weight in that area is less likely to kill the feel of the cue as much as under the pin and bottom. One can argue it even accentuates the feel .
And weight does not mean metal bolts only either . So many ways to add weight there w/out using metal. One can argue too that two contrasting woods ( in density and tone ) in compression will likely resonate better than one piece of wood or two pieces glued together. That's my theory anyway why SW, Searing, DPK or Lambros have the hit that's sought after .
 
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