Challenge of Champions dump

Yes, everyone has a right to believe that every football game, boxing match and basketball game that they lose betting on is "a dump"......some humans even believe wilder things.

The fact is Buddy dogged it, and so did Mike....plain and simple.

Your responses in this thread makes you look like little more then a fool with no clue and/or a liar who has/had a stake in attempting to mask the facts.

Do you really think people are going to change their views over something so clear because "you say so" and you link a bunch of images with dumb quips? You were better off saying nothing at all then doing what you did here, you are just making yourself look bad.

Everyone with any sense knows what took place and can see it clearly, including Jay who was right there and witnessed the whole thing. There are MANY first person accounts from people who were there that have admitted to what went down.
 
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Sure Jar. I get 8 Ball Fever often, even on easy ones.

We're not talking one miss by Buddy, but his over all play thru out his entire match with Mike.

Redo that match over for 50K when the Dump wasn't on and I bet that it would be all over for Mike in a blink.

CJ is trying to defend the obvious. Jay comes on and tells it like it was, and tells CJ to
stick what he knows, not what he thinks.

I'll put my money on Jay's knowledge of this one.

Just watching a young Keith Mac and Efron play at the moment. Either one of them would have put the lights out for Mike or Buddy with their slop.

One poster said that he can forgive them because it was a Casino that took the hit. Under different circumstances in years past, that kind of action
may have got you a trip to the desert.

Now, I can kind of agree with him on that one considering that the odds are stacked in a Casinos favor always. But, you can be sure that there was some behind the scenes talk of this Dump among people in Vegas. They weren't about to allow something like this happen again.

One can only speculate on how this did or didn't affect pool in Vegas for the future but as Jay also said, "This was another Black Eye for pool".

You make some great points. And I have to admit you guys could spot a dump better than I simply because you've been around and know what to look for. I guess I'm a bit naive but I don't like thinking that Buddy Hall would lay down. I guess money does change everytihing.
 
Matt's tournament went on another 20+ years on ESPN

All I can judge by is watching the match, and at least one post on here where Jay Helfert, who worked the tournament, says it was a dump. So whatever. It wasn't pretty anyway you slice it. Here's what Jay said in another thread:


Everyone has a right to their opinion, and no one is arguing that Buddy didn't play a terrible match. If you go through history you'll see other finals that are even worse.....and Efren has played in some of those matches.

I won't pretend to know what was going on in Buddy's head, I'll just suggest that there's more possibilities than what are being preached. Playing under that kind of pressure, where your opponent has 20/1 to beat you brings up all kind of potential possibilities. Maybe he just mentally "blew a fuse," and it wouldn't be the first time an athlete has done that in competition and probably won't be the last.

All I know is Vegas continued to book the 'Challenge of Champions' in subsequent years......they certainly did when I played. Back then there were promoters trying to shoot holes in Matt Braun's 'Challenge of Champions' and failed.....his tournament went on another 20+ years on ESPN and it's just too bad there weren't more "Matt Brauns" and pool wouldn't be "out of sight, out of mind" on ESPN........I think Matt is owed a debt of gratitude.
 
I have no horse in this race, but I do have to point out that things aren't .......

Everyone has a right to their opinion of course.

I just happen to know that there was a tremendous amount of pressure on Buddy because of this situation. Don't you "real eyes" that he KNOWS people are going to assume he's dumping if he loses???

This puts an extraordinary amount of pressure on and human being and even a player of Buddy's caliber can "crack".....I've seen Efren and many other players "fall dead" in the finals of a tournament.

This tournament was different because it was $50,000 Winner Take All AND vegas put out a really silly line (20/1) on a US OPEN CHAMPION player......any gambler in their right mind would take that bet, and anyone that thinks different is truly foolish. Mike Lebron was the winner of major championships like the US OPEN, you really think he wasn't capable of winning 4 "races to 7"?

I have no horse in this race, but I do have to point out that things aren't always as they appear in life, and Buddy playing poorly could be a result of many other factors.



Your responses in this thread makes you look like little more then a fool with no clue and/or a liar who has/had a stake in attempting to mask the facts.

Do you really think people are going to change their views over something so clear because "you say so" and you link a bunch of images with dumb quips? You were better off saying nothing at all then doing what you did here, you are just making yourself look bad.

Everyone with any sense knows what took place and can see it clearly, including Jay who was right there and witnessed the whole thing. There are MANY first person accounts from people who were there that have admitted to what went down.
 
Everyone has a right to their opinion, and no one is arguing that Buddy didn't play a terrible match. If you go through history you'll see other finals that are even worse.....and Efren has played in some of those matches.

I won't pretend to know what was going on in Buddy's head, I'll just suggest that there's more possibilities than what are being preached. Playing under that kind of pressure, where your opponent has 20/1 to beat you brings up all kind of potential possibilities. Maybe he just mentally "blew a fuse," and it wouldn't be the first time an athlete has done that in competition and probably won't be the last.

All I know is Vegas continued to book the 'Challenge of Champions' in subsequent years......they certainly did when I played. Back then there were promoters trying to shoot holes in Matt Braun's 'Challenge of Champions' and failed.....his tournament went on another 20+ years on ESPN and it's just too bad there weren't more "Matt Brauns" and pool wouldn't be "out of sight, out of mind" on ESPN........I think Matt is owed a debt of gratitude.

Tap Tap Tap.

If pool has any chance of turning around it will be with positive thinkers who learn from mistakes and make improvements.

I think CJ would agree that this quality is also present in top level players. Good attitude, focus on the positive, learn from mistakes and move forward.

Ray
 
I have no horse in this race, but I do have to point out that things aren't always as they appear in life, and Buddy playing poorly could be a result of many other factors.

It is not even about "playing poorly". It is about shot selection, shape played "obviously" to scratch in the side and then the terrible acting job Buddy put out after barely missing the purposeful scratch.

You are a pro pool player, you have been around the game for a long time. If you cannot watch a match like that and see the difference between what happen there and matches where people "play poorly" something is wrong with that. A pro pool player can tell the difference between an obvious dump and a bad match.

But honestly, this was back in the day when you were fairly involved in pool, you know as well as Jay what really happened I am sure. You are just "choosing" to act oblivious to it for whatever reasons you might have.
 
I guess I'm a bit naive but I don't like thinking that Buddy Hall would lay down. I guess money does change everytihing.

Not really Jar. I would be on the same level as yourself re spotting a dump or any Hanky Panky going on. There are a ton of more experienced players on AZB that can tho.

I'm just going by what my eyes see with this match and others comments.

And yer not alone in thinking about Buddy laying down either. I would bet that 99% of us
would prefer not to believe it either. But with peoples comments that were in the know and watching the final match, it is what it looks like.

When one of my doggies accidentally leaves me a present somewhere in the house, I don't have to pick it up and have a sniff to know what it is.

With the frequent Threads discussing the State of Pro Pool, this is but one example that keeps being brought up every so often.

As Jay can attest, that wasn't the first time that Pros have shot themselves in the foot and is as recent as Rodney's kerfluffle with CSI.

CJ can make all the excuses he wants. In my city, the Masters Division is no longer.
Instead we have what we call a Modified Division. Short stop or just under a Master.

I have watched Modified Players put on a much better show than the last 2 games with Buddy and Mike. That was unacceptable and Novice to Intermediate on a few of those shots.

Buddy's acting skills also need a little honing.
 
You make some great points. And I have to admit you guys could spot a dump better than I simply because you've been around and know what to look for. I guess I'm a bit naive but I don't like thinking that Buddy Hall would lay down. I guess money does change everytihing.

It matters not to me... My opinion does not change one bit of Buddy, before, during or after this "dump". When your wife meets a "pool player" and instantly loves them, their good people :)
 
RJ, I am sure that Buddy is a great guy. Anyone would love to hang with him for a day or more. play and listen to stories.

I bet that even the worst pool scoundrels, past and present have many redeeming qualities.

Buddies personality isn't in question here. Since I have been a member here for several years, I would be lying if I didn't say that my attitude toward Pro Players hasn't changed.

Whereas before, I could say that I gave a shit, now, I can say that I don't either way.

Its the same as saying, don't come running to me if you fall out of that tree and break your leg.

Don't come running to the masses complaining when many have been responsible for their own destiny over the years.

Known fact that the opinions of the AZB membership are not held in high regard when it comes to Pro Players, but they don't mind popping in when they need a vote of confidence, backing or have something to flog off on us.

I have seen that change drastically in the few years that I have been a member.
If a Pro dropped in, members would fall all over themselves lining up to give them money or what ever they were asking for.

That has taken a complete 180. I wonder why.
 
It is not even about "playing poorly". It is about shot selection, shape played "obviously" to scratch in the side and then the terrible acting job Buddy put out after barely missing the purposeful scratch.

You are a pro pool player, you have been around the game for a long time. If you cannot watch a match like that and see the difference between what happen there and matches where people "play poorly" something is wrong with that. A pro pool player can tell the difference between an obvious dump and a bad match.

But honestly, this was back in the day when you were fairly involved in pool, you know as well as Jay what really happened I am sure. You are just "choosing" to act oblivious to it for whatever reasons you might have.

Why do you think he was playing to scratch? I mean the two times in that clip where the ball headed towards the pocket were not easy scratches.

Wouldn't it have been easier to miscue if he wanted to give up ball in hand?

I am not saying a dump didn't happen I am saying that the video clip is damn sure not conclusive.

We watch similar clips from other matches and think the player dogged it with sympathy for the player. Dechaine famously dogged several shots in one of the Mosconi Cups. Guess he dumped because he was betting on the Euros? You CAN bet on the Mosconi Cup by the way with English bookmakers. And the World Championships, Alex famously bet on himself and won. So apparently they haven't heard of this story or don't care about it.

ONLY because there is the rumor of a dump do we look at this one and conclude that it's evidence of one.

As I mentioned earlier I saw Tony Ellin miss a two foot shot which was an $8000 swing. It happens.

In this situation there is plenty of reasonable doubt. That OUGHT to be the standard we judge by. But it really is not in a society that prefers to condemn first and vindicate later.

Unless someone has better proof than hearsay this shit ought to be put in the category of reasonable doubt in my opinion.
 
Why do you think he was playing to scratch? I mean the two times in that clip where the ball headed towards the pocket were not easy scratches.

Wouldn't it have been easier to miscue if he wanted to give up ball in hand?

I am not saying a dump didn't happen I am saying that the video clip is damn sure not conclusive.

We watch similar clips from other matches and think the player dogged it with sympathy for the player. Dechaine famously dogged several shots in one of the Mosconi Cups. Guess he dumped because he was betting on the Euros? You CAN bet on the Mosconi Cup by the way with English bookmakers. And the World Championships, Alex famously bet on himself and won. So apparently they haven't heard of this story or don't care about it.

ONLY because there is the rumor of a dump do we look at this one and conclude that it's evidence of one.

As I mentioned earlier I saw Tony Ellin miss a two foot shot which was an $8000 swing. It happens.

In this situation there is plenty of reasonable doubt. That OUGHT to be the standard we judge by. But it really is not in a society that prefers to condemn first and vindicate later.

Unless someone has better proof than hearsay this shit ought to be put in the category of reasonable doubt in my opinion.


You take the video of the match, add in what Earl said BEFORE the match even happened, and there is enough to convict in any court. Or, one can say that it was just a coincidence that the matches went down exactly like Earl said they would. Why do you think it was scheduled for when Earl would be out of country?
 
you get to enjoy rubbing a good man's name in the dirt.....but if you're wrong

These things you see can also be a result of an over-load of pressure. Pro players are human beings and have a certain threshold or tolerance for pressure....if that pressure is exceeded a multitude of "side-effects" can occur....most of them negative.

Let's see what made the Buddy Hall match have more pressure than "normal".

1) They were playing ONE race to 7 for $50,000 (which is much more by today's standards) - in this scenario 2nd place got 00.00 *(unless there was a saver, but that's another issue entirely)

2) The balls were usually freshly polished/waxed by ESPN and played unpredictably. They were only interested on how the balls looked on TV, not how they performed.

3) The TV lights sometimes make the arena feel like it's 100 DEGREES+ - They also were required to wear shirts supplied by the show that were not even close to taylor made.......another seemly small thing, but I'll testify it makes a huge difference at times.

4) Buddy's opponent was a 20/1 shot and he knew he HAD to play well or "people" would think he had done something terribly wrong.......this pressure would be brutal!!!

5) Buddy was not in the greatest of health and may have been drinking so there's no way we can tell what his physical condition was at the time....I know from experience there's days I just can't "put it together" mentally/physically to play world class speed.

6) Buddy was NOT the crowd favorite and probably felt like everyone and their mother wanted him to lose........including his friends in the audience.....another brutal factor.

If anyone wants to chastise and slander Buddy and Mike's name to feel morally superior, that's your prerogative....just remember, if you're right you get to enjoy rubbing a good man's name in the dirt.....but if you're wrong are you willing to allow life to punish you (?) .....it's only fair. ;) 'The Karma is the Teacher'



It is not even about "playing poorly". It is about shot selection, shape played "obviously" to scratch in the side and then the terrible acting job Buddy put out after barely missing the purposeful scratch.

You are a pro pool player, you have been around the game for a long time. If you cannot watch a match like that and see the difference between what happen there and matches where people "play poorly" something is wrong with that. A pro pool player can tell the difference between an obvious dump and a bad match.

But honestly, this was back in the day when you were fairly involved in pool, you know as well as Jay what really happened I am sure. You are just "choosing" to act oblivious to it for whatever reasons you might have.
 
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Everyone has a right to their opinion of course.

I just happen to know that there was a tremendous amount of pressure on Buddy because of this situation. Don't you "real eyes" that he KNOWS people are going to assume he's dumping if he loses???

This puts an extraordinary amount of pressure on and human being and even a player of Buddy's caliber can "crack".....I've seen Efren and many other players "fall dead" in the finals of a tournament.

This tournament was different because it was $50,000 Winner Take All AND vegas put out a really silly line (20/1) on a US OPEN CHAMPION player......any gambler in their right mind would take that bet, and anyone that thinks different is truly foolish. Mike Lebron was the winner of major championships like the US OPEN, you really think he wasn't capable of winning 4 "races to 7"?

I have no horse in this race, but I do have to point out that things aren't always as they appear in life, and Buddy playing poorly could be a result of many other factors.

CJ, this was a long time ago in another galaxy far away, but IT REALLY HAPPENED and to deny it happened is a huge error in judgement imo. I don't think it has any bearing on professional pool today so I won't belabor the issue any longer after this. There certainly was a lot of pressure on Buddy as it turns out. Six other guys were counting on him to lose this match, since they were all holding $200 tickets at 20-1 on Mike! Yes, Buddy had a ticket too. None of these tickets were bought by the players themselves, they had someone (friend or spouse) make the purchase for them.

Only one player (Earl or Allen) refused to be part of this deal. The other seven guys split the 50K equally (plus cashed $4,200 tickets at the sports book). Not a bad payday in 1991, over 11K each. I'm not guessing here and this is not what I think happened. It's a fact Jack! After this I'll let it go at that and we can move on to other topics.

I'm certain CJ that if you had been invited that year you also would have refused to participate because that's the kind of man you are. :wink:
One last thing, I agree with you, KARMA is a b-tch! So be careful what you espouse and support. I do not fault or condemn any of these players for this transgression. Remember this was the first year of the Challenge and they may have thought it was a one time deal, and there is no question that the sports book made a terrible line on Mike Lebron, who was a fine player. The next biggest odds on anyone was like 8-1. It was just too tempting for the players, who saw an opportunity and went for it. By the way that was the only time this happened in this event. Matt Braun got wind of the whole thing and put an end to it quick the following year. He laid down the law to the eight players that any hint of a dump and none of them would get paid! They all had to sign an agreement disavowing any deals prior to the start of play.

P.S. I'm not a guy in a diner!
 
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These things you see can also be a result of an over-load of pressure. Pro players are human beings and have a certain threshold or tolerance for pressure....if that pressure is exceeded a multitude of "side-effects" can occur....most of them negative.

Let's see what made the Buddy Hall match have more pressure than "normal".

1) They were playing ONE race to 7 for $50,000 (which is much more by today's standards) - in this scenario 2nd place got 00.00 *(unless there was a saver, but that's another issue entirely)

2) The balls were usually freshly polished/waxed by ESPN and played unpredictably. They were only interested on how the balls looked on TV, not how they performed.

3) The TV lights sometimes make the arena feel like it's 100 DEGREES+ - They also were required to wear shirts supplied by the show that were not even close to taylor made.......another seemly small thing, but I'll testify it makes a huge difference at times.

4) Buddy's opponent was a 20/1 shot and he knew he HAD to play well or "people" would think he had done something terribly wrong.......this pressure would be brutal!!!

5) Buddy was not in the greatest of health and may have been drinking so there's no way we can tell what his physical condition was at the time....I know from experience there's days I just can't "put it together" mentally/physically to play world class speed.

6) Buddy was NOT the crowd favorite and probably felt like everyone and their mother wanted him to lose........including his friends in the audience.....another brutal factor.

If anyone wants to chastise and slander Buddy and Mike's name to feel morally superior, that's your prerogative....just remember, if you're right you get to enjoy rubbing a good man's name in the dirt.....but if you're wrong are you willing to allow life to punish you (?) .....it's only fair. ;) 'The Karma is the Teacher'

Well, that may very well be the reason you slander others on here, but as far as the match being discussed goes, no one is slandering anyone. People have presented facts. Some of us live in reality.

As far as that match hurting pool, that is all hogwash. That stuff has always gone on, and is still going on. And, it's not unique to pool either. Those that want to hold up as heroes anyone in sports just because they play really good, doesn't have much of a grasp on reality.
 
You take the video of the match, add in what Earl said BEFORE the match even happened, and there is enough to convict in any court. Or, one can say that it was just a coincidence that the matches went down exactly like Earl said they would. Why do you think it was scheduled for when Earl would be out of country?

What did Earl say?

So you're saying that Matt Braun was in on it? After all he would be the one who did the scheduling along with the casino and espn.

Did they check Earl's schedule to make sure he would be out of the country?

Is it on record BEFORE the Challenge of Champions in 91 that Earl predicted how it would go down? By on record I mean actually RECORDED with a time stamp? Or is just hearsay at this point?

I am positive that the video of the match is inconclusive and any statements made by Earl would simply be just his testimony.

Hardly enough to convict in court but plenty it seems to convict on AZB.

Again not saying it didn't happen, just saying that the evidence we have now is pretty flimsy.

12 Angry Men
 
These things you see can also be a result of an over-load of pressure. Pro players are human beings and have a certain threshold or tolerance for pressure....if that pressure is exceeded a multitude of "side-effects" can occur....most of them negative.

Let's see what made the Buddy Hall match have more pressure than "normal".

1) They were playing ONE race to 7 for $50,000 (which is much more by today's standards) - in this scenario 2nd place got 00.00 *(unless there was a saver, but that's another issue entirely)

2) The balls were usually freshly polished/waxed by ESPN and played unpredictably. They were only interested on how the balls looked on TV, not how they performed.

3) The TV lights sometimes make the arena feel like it's 100 DEGREES+ - They also were required to wear shirts supplied by the show that were not even close to taylor made.......another seemly small thing, but I'll testify it makes a huge difference at times.

4) Buddy's opponent was a 20/1 shot and he knew he HAD to play well or "people" would think he had done something terribly wrong.......this pressure would be brutal!!!

5) Buddy was not in the greatest of health and may have been drinking so there's no way we can tell what his physical condition was at the time....I know from experience there's days I just can't "put it together" mentally/physically to play world class speed.

6) Buddy was NOT the crowd favorite and probably felt like everyone and their mother wanted him to lose........including his friends in the audience.....another brutal factor.

If anyone wants to chastise and slander Buddy and Mike's name to feel morally superior, that's your prerogative....just remember, if you're right you get to enjoy rubbing a good man's name in the dirt.....but if you're wrong are you willing to allow life to punish you (?) .....it's only fair. ;) 'The Karma is the Teacher'

The blind-eye is the teacher. :rolleyes:
 
What did Earl say?

So you're saying that Matt Braun was in on it? After all he would be the one who did the scheduling along with the casino and espn.

Did they check Earl's schedule to make sure he would be out of the country?

Is it on record BEFORE the Challenge of Champions in 91 that Earl predicted how it would go down? By on record I mean actually RECORDED with a time stamp? Or is just hearsay at this point?

I am positive that the video of the match is inconclusive and any statements made by Earl would simply be just his testimony.

Hardly enough to convict in court but plenty it seems to convict on AZB.

Again not saying it didn't happen, just saying that the evidence we have now is pretty flimsy.

12 Angry Men

Try reading the link I posted earlier from the one pocket forum. ;)
 
I am not saying a dump didn't happen I am saying that the video clip is damn sure not conclusive.

Go back and watch the 8-ball Mike Lebron missed to win the set 2 games up and look at Buddy's reaction. He is playing for $50,000 winner take all, is he relieved at the chance to win? No. Is he shocked and hungry to make Mike pay for that mistake? No. Does he look happy at all? No. He looked disgusted and like he wanted to slap Mike for missing that shot. He could not believe after all of his efforts to get Mike to win that game that Mike went and blew that shot and let him back to the table with 2 complete ducks.

I don't know, maybe you are simply terrible at reading people John, you and CJ both... I am not, Buddy did "not" want to win that set and he certainly did not want the set to go to hill-hill.

The thing I found most surprising in the whole thing was how terrible an actor on of the biggest hustlers and road players of all time proved to be.
 
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