U.S. Open rules discussion

BasementDweller said:
You've certainly had some good ideas on here over the years but I don't think this is one of them.

"Ladies and gentlemen, I now want to introduce the legendary Hall of Fame pool playing Magician -- Efren Reyes."

after the applause dies down you turn to Efren and say "Now get over there and rack the balls for the next couple of hours." :eek:
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Good point. But you know who would love racking for any final 16 match?

...Me![*] And just about any other pool fan. You would get to meet the players and have prime seating for the match (you'd have to be close to the table, just to keep things moving).

So put a little fun into it and have an online entry process when you buy your US Open ticket. Then have a drawing and the "winners" get to spend a few hours watching a match of champions up close (and doing a little racking).

One catch might be whether random attendees can be trusted to know a good 9-ball rack when they see one. Another catch would be no-shows. A 15-minute training/testing session should address the first problem. A few alternates should address the second (or a $50 refundable deposit held by Jay).

Cory

[*] Except that I'm not actually going to the US Open.
 
So let's say you are a pool player that actually made plans in your life -- maybe one from a different continent.

You make plans to go the US Open and pay your $1000 entry fee, thinking everyone else is doing the same. You choose the US Open cause of the prestige of the title and also the prize pool is what you think it will be with the $1000 entry. Then that changes and it is now $750.

No worries. You have been working on your 9 ball break for several months. It is a game that you normally don't play as 10 ball is the game of choice where you are from. You feel like you finally have your break down after months of hard work. You are feeling confident in your chances. Then that changes and it is now the 9 ball will be placed on the spot.

What next? The US Open going to tell you that you can't use a cue with an extension?
 
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sjm said:
Yes, point well taken, JAM, and that's our Catch-22. To get a full contingent of foreign players in a US based event, WPA sanctioning is, more often than not, needed.

American pool is a beneficiary of WPA sanctioning because a) it gives our emerging stars a chance to compete with pool's crème-de-la-crème in these days of non-participation by American players in WPA events overseas, and b) it gives far greater international visibility to the US Open, which in turn, makes American players who succeed more marketable in both domestic and foreign markets, and c) WPA ranking points are used for more than a few invitational events, so they have some value to American pros.

There's no simple answer here, JAM, but say the WPA offers nothing to American pool is not accurate. Perhaps, though, we're not getting as much as we pay for.
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Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

On (a), it gives the Europeans and Asians a chance to compete with crème de la crème Americans.

For (b), America gives our foreign counterparts a platform to play, making them more visible to domestic and foreign markets. Thorsten just won the Challenge of Champions, as an example. He's German, though lives in America and competes in American pool competitions on a very frequent basis, so much so that he was passed by on inclusion in a Mosconi Cup because he didn't have enough points from the European equivalent of the BCA.

On (c) how many Americans have been invited to invitational events in recent times? Two? Three? The WPA ranking points are not beneficial to American professional players as a whole. Two or three doesn't cut the mustard enough to warrant tournament promoters greasing the palms of the WPA so they can travel the world and enjoy banquets in Qatar.

You are right, though, in that there is no simple answer. However, the WPA does very little to help pool in general. Tournament promoters' money would be better left in the total purse for the event and put in the pockets of the pool players. They're the ones starving, not the WPA members. Tournament promoters are paying WPA members to travel the world, allowing them to receive the red carpet treatment wherever they step foot in, as if they're pool royalty. Meanwhile, do you really think the WPA would *ever* be instrumental in putting pool in the Olympics? It ain't happening anytime soon, and it sure as heck won't be happening in my lifetime. Probably, it will never happen, but I won't live long enough to find out.

Why do we need an organization such as this? Ranking points for what? Matchroom doesn't seem to utilize the WPA ranking points for the Mosconi Cup, and to date, the Mosconi Cups seems to be the event that every professional pool player wants the opportunity to compete in. Matchroom Sport would be a great governing bdy for professional pool around the world. They're fair, and they know what time of day it is. Plus, they put their money where their mouth is, unlike the WPA with a press release once a year, if we're lucky, about a banquet in Qatar.

The WPA is the Emperor in The Emperor's New Clothes, and those who follow the WPA are blindly following a Pied Piper, getting nothing in return, other than a brown nose.
 
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JAM said:
Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

On (a), it gives the Europeans and Asians a chance to compete with crème de la crème Americans.

For (b), America gives our foreign counterparts a platform to play, making them more visible to domestic and foreign markets. Thorsten just won the Challenge of Champions, as an example. He's German, though lives in America and competes in American pool competitions on a very frequent basis, so much so that he was passed by on inclusion in a Mosconi Cup because he didn't have enough points from the European equivalent of the BCA.

On (c) how many Americans have been invited to invitational events in recent times? Two? Three? The WPA ranking points are not beneficial to American professional players as a whole. Two or three doesn't cut the mustard enough to warrant tournament promoters greasing the palms of the WPA so they can travel the world and enjoy banquets in Qatar.

You are right, though, in that there is no simple answer. However, the WPA does very little to help pool in general. Tournament promoters' money would be better left in the total purse for the event and put in the pockets of the pool players. They're the ones starving, not the WPA members. Tournament promoters are paying WPA members to travel the world, allowing them to receive the red carpet treatment wherever they step foot in, as if they're pool royalty. Meanwhile, do you really think the WPA would *ever* be instrumental in putting pool in the Olympics? It ain't happening anytime soon, and it sure as heck won't be happening in my lifetime. Probably, it will never happen, but I won't live long enough to find out.

Why do we need an organization such as this? Ranking points for what? Matchroom doesn't seem to utilize the WPA ranking points for the Mosconi Cup, and to date, the Mosconi Cups seems to be the event that every professional pool player wants the opportunity to compete in. Matchroom Sport would be a great governing bdy for professional pool around the world. They're fair, and they know what time of day it is. Plus, they put their money where their mouth is, unlike the WPA with a press release once a year, if we're lucky, about a banquet in Qatar.

The WPA is the Emperor in The Emperor's New Clothes, and those who follow the WPA are blindly following a Pied Piper, getting nothing in return, other than a brown nose.
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That covers it nicely
 
JAM said:
Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

On (a), it gives the Europeans and Asians a chance to compete with crème de la crème Americans.

For (b), America gives our foreign counterparts a platform to play, making them more visible to domestic and foreign markets. Thorsten just won the Challenge of Champions, as an example. He's German, though lives in America and competes in American pool competitions on a very frequent basis, so much so that he was passed by on inclusion in a Mosconi Cup because he didn't have enough points from the European equivalent of the BCA.

On (c) how many Americans have been invited to invitational events in recent times? Two? Three? The WPA ranking points are not beneficial to American professional players as a whole. Two or three doesn't cut the mustard enough to warrant tournament promoters greasing the palms of the WPA so they can travel the world and enjoy banquets in Qatar.

You are right, though, in that there is no simple answer. However, the WPA does very little to help pool in general. Tournament promoters' money would be better left in the total purse for the event and put in the pockets of the pool players. They're the ones starving, not the WPA members. Tournament promoters are paying WPA members to travel the world, allowing them to receive the red carpet treatment wherever they step foot in, as if they're pool royalty. Meanwhile, do you really think the WPA would *ever* be instrumental in putting pool in the Olympics? It ain't happening anytime soon, and it sure as heck won't be happening in my lifetime. Probably, it will never happen, but I won't live long enough to find out.

Why do we need an organization such as this? Ranking points for what? Matchroom doesn't seem to utilize the WPA ranking points for the Mosconi Cup, and to date, the Mosconi Cups seems to be the event that every professional pool player wants the opportunity to compete in. Matchroom Sport would be a great governing bdy for professional pool around the world. They're fair, and they know what time of day it is. Plus, they put their money where their mouth is, unlike the WPA with a press release once a year, if we're lucky, about a banquet in Qatar.

The WPA is the Emperor in The Emperor's New Clothes, and those who follow the WPA are blindly following a Pied Piper, getting nothing in return, other than a brown nose.
Click to expand...

Nice post, JAM. Just one little correction ---- Americans get a lot of WPA invitations but tend to decline them because the costs of participation are prohibitive. Actually, American women accept far more of these invitations than the American men.

Like you, I'd love to see Matchroom have a bigger role, but pool is one of several sports with which they are involved and I doubt they'd be interested.
 
Cory in DC said:
Good point. But you know who would love racking for any final 16 match?

...Me![*] And just about any other pool fan. You would get to meet the players and have prime seating for the match (you'd have to be close to the table, just to keep things moving).

So put a little fun into it and have an online entry process when you buy your US Open ticket. Then have a drawing and the "winners" get to spend a few hours watching a match of champions up close (and doing a little racking).

One catch might be whether random attendees can be trusted to know a good 9-ball rack when they see one. Another catch would be no-shows. A 15-minute training/testing session should address the first problem. A few alternates should address the second (or a $50 refundable deposit held by Jay).

Cory

[*] Except that I'm not actually going to the US Open.
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This is a good idea right up until the point your favourite pro goes off on you for giving them a slug rack, or mad dogs you from their seat all game because they didn't make a ball from your rack.

Neutral rackers are a nice idea, but unless you're going to pay someone to ref and rack (which obviously costs money) I just don't see how it can work.
 
sjm said:
Nice post, JAM. Just one little correction ---- Americans get a lot of WPA invitations but tend to decline them because the costs of participation are prohibitive. Actually, American women accept far more of these invitations than the American men.

Like you, I'd love to see Matchroom have a bigger role, but pool is one of several sports with which they are involved and I doubt they'd be interested.
Click to expand...

We definitely agree on a lot of points; however, let's not forget how we have no governmental organization, and as such, our American pros cannot afford to travel abroad. In fact, the BCA, which is our governmental organization, just gives the American slots away to the European players in this regard. I do not believe that Americans get "a lot of WPA invitations."

Are you working with the WPA now? I am just curious, as I know you do get around in pool circles. :D
 
JAM said:
We definitely agree on a lot of points; however, let's not forget how we have no governmental organization, and as such, our American pros cannot afford to travel abroad.
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How many of the European pros actually get government funding of some kind?

I know Niels Feijen was getting some funding from the Dutch government at one point - I'm not sure if that's still the case (isn't he based in Denmark now?). I can't think of any others off the top of my head - anyone have a list?
 
jay helfert said:
It's not a perfect world guys! I do the best I can with the cards I'm dealt. ;)
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vWgN3X.gif
 
SakuJack said:
... Neutral rackers are a nice idea, but unless you're going to pay someone to ref and rack (which obviously costs money) I just don't see how it can work.
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In my experience, you can get volunteers who will work for nothing or next to nothing at most tournaments. Free admission when they are not working and free sandwiches for lunch and dinner will often do it.

It is, however, a lot of work to both get the volunteers and to herd them. For that it's good to have a master volunteer.
 
JAM said:
We definitely agree on a lot of points; however, let's not forget how we have no governmental organization, and as such, our American pros cannot afford to travel abroad. In fact, the BCA, which is our governmental organization, just gives the American slots away to the European players in this regard. I do not believe that Americans get "a lot of WPA invitations."

Are you working with the WPA now? I am just curious, as I know you do get around in pool circles. :D
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The Americans used to get a lot of WPA invitational spots. However, the way it works is when you keep turning down invitations, the invitations eventually go elsewhere. Then the following year the invitations are less. The WPA wants American participation. The problem is that the Americans don't want to participate.
 
Bob Jewett said:
In my experience, you can get volunteers who will work for nothing or next to nothing at most tournaments. Free admission when they are not working and free sandwiches for lunch and dinner will often do it.

It is, however, a lot of work to both get the volunteers and to herd them. For that it's good to have a master volunteer.
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I think, who ever wins the lag, rack and break the first five games in a row, his opponent rack and break last 4 if race to 9, or 1st 6 and last 5 race to 11 . This way we see packs, and both players have chance to even it up a little..(winning the lag gives the player that one game advantage), i do not like single alternating rack and breaks
 
naji said:
I think, who ever wins the lag, rack and break the first five games in a row, his opponent rack and break last 4 if race to 9, or 1st 6 and last 5 race to 11 . This way we see packs, and both players have chance to even it up a little..(winning the lag gives the player that one game advantage), i do not like single alternating rack and breaks
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A race to 9 can possibly go 17 games though.
 
naji said:
I think, who ever wins the lag, rack and break the first five games in a row, his opponent rack and break last 4 if race to 9, or 1st 6 and last 5 race to 11 . This way we see packs, and both players have chance to even it up a little..(winning the lag gives the player that one game advantage), i do not like single alternating rack and breaks
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Since the US Open tennis event is on the east coast and they play sets and tiebreakers, this too should be strongly considered in the future for the US Open 9 ball event. You could even advertise, that the format is ''just like tennis'', that statement on the E Coast could help fill the room. I'd prefer to see best two out of three sets to win One match, with tiebreakers like in tennis, if its a hill/hill match, first to 3 or something like that, but NOT win by two.
 
watchez said:
So let's say you are a pool player that actually made plans in your life -- maybe one from a different continent.

You make plans to go the US Open and pay your $1000 entry fee, thinking everyone else is doing the same. You choose the US Open cause of the prestige of the title and also the prize pool is what you think it will be with the $1000 entry. Then that changes and it is now $750.

No worries. You have been working on your 9 ball break for several months. It is a game that you normally don't play as 10 ball is the game of choice where you are from. You feel like you finally have your break down after months of hard work. You are feeling confident in your chances. Then that changes and it is now the 9 ball will be placed on the spot.

What next? The US Open going to tell you that you can't use a cue with an extension?
Click to expand...

I said this earlier...

It shouldnt be changed a week out, plus it shouldnt be changed on a year when USOpen history could be made (3 in a row).
 
I didn't have time to read this entire thread, but I know with Jay at the helm it's going to be good. IMO he runs one of the most exciting events of the year in the Bigfoot 10 Ball.

Also, in regards to the rules specifically it doesn't really matter to me what they do, but the best rules for the event are the ones that make it the best for the fans not necessarily the players. What does that mean to me? Rotation pool should never ever be call shot. The money ball should count on the break anywhere. Hard breaks without a guaranteed ball. No pattern racking. Foul on all balls.

Oh one other thing I would suggest if no one else has (sorry didn't read every post) is that if guys are worried about crooked or tilted racks a line and a rack outline on the table just like 14.1 should solve that.
 
Icon of Sin said:
I said this earlier...

It shouldnt be changed a week out, plus it shouldnt be changed on a year when USOpen history could be made (3 in a row).
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Hey, it's the last year of Barry. He did a great job over the years to get it where it's at, time to gentrify the business model....and move to the next level.
 
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