An Open Discussion about an improper Banning

realkingcobra said:
So, you sent your rails to Mark I take it....or do you even have a pool table...LOL I encourage everyone who wants to ship their rails out to have them worked on to ship them to Mark, just make sure you call him first to see if he's willing to fit you in, some of you might be surprised at his response;)
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Please read post #100, thank you.
 
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TATE said:
OK everybody - we have a chance to actually do something here if we stop calling each other names.

Mike has just expressed these opinions:

MIKE - AZ HOUSE PRO:

This is not an open discussion about an improper banning. It might have started off that way, but as is almost always the case, the insults started and the thread is out of control.

From reading this thread (and reported posts in my email), every single user here is the reason why every other user will never log in again. First it was Barton that was single handedly ruining the forums. Then it was CJ. Now it is RKC. Fer crying out loud guys. Can you give the insults a rest? Don't like someone? IGNORE THEM. How hard is that to understand? It is an online forum? If you win a battle here, you have won NOTHING!!!

You still can't make any more balls than you could before, and the game is still a mess.

This is like dealing with children.

Here lies a problem though. Half of the users say that warnings and bans should be handled privately, so as not to rub the users nose in it. The other half say that warnings should be public so that everyone knows that people do get warned.

Believe me, I have been doing a lot of warning lately. Users are getting warnings.


There is a difference between simply reporting a post (as we have asked users to do), and going with the "xxxx is the reason that no one ever comes to AzB anymore. They are the anti-christ, and I will never ever come to this site while they are allowed to post". Those messages get a little old.

It is a very slippery slope when we start allowing a user to give us an "It's them or me" ultimatum.

Who determines what user is more valuable to the site than another?

And where does the line stop when you allow it to happen once?

Mike

Hate to say it, but having been a boss my entire life, these comments are the way most bosses eventually feel about managing employees, especially the prima donna's. It gets old. Bosses don't really understand or sympathize with the emotional side of the job. We expect people to get along and respect each other as adults and professionals and just do their job. When it doesn't work out, someone usually gets moved or fired.

Why don't we all try a little harder not to fight, not to insult, not to criticize, not to antagonize? If you feel compelled to attack someone, take a day off and think about it. Usually that's enough.

Let's only report posts that are truly vicious.

Let's try to get along better.
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I agree completely.

I also don't expect it to happen....sadly. I hope that I am wrong.
 
TATE said:
Please read post #100, thank you.
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I agree 100%, now if certain people would stop making me the topic of discussion when they really know nothing about facts, this would be a better place to be. Hell, I'll even be the first to say....I quit! But rest assured, it won't end here by them, as they'll continue on as they always do, but they'll have to continue on with out my help.;)
 
realkingcobra said:
So, you sent your rails to Mark I take it....or do you even have a pool table...LOL I encourage everyone who wants to ship their rails out to have them worked on to ship them to Mark, just make sure you call him first to see if he's willing to fit you in, some of you might be surprised at his response;)
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No, haven't sent any rails to Mark. Have played on his tables though, bar none the best playing tables I've ever hit a ball on. Not sure about others but I think if I ask Mark he'll fit me in.
 
realkingcobra said:
I agree 100%, now if certain people would stop making me the topic of discussion when they really know nothing about facts, this would be a better place to be. Hell, I'll even be the first to say....I quit! But rest assured, it won't end here by them, as they'll continue on as they always do, but they'll have to continue on with out my help.;)
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For the record if I bought a diamond I'd contact you to set it up. Unfortunately I have a wife who doesn't understand what is wrong with my A E Schmidt.

I pocketed a ball once and the end rail at the foot of the table fell off. Most of the pockets aren't attached to the table. When I bought it I didn't know much about tables.

I'd gladly take either a gold crown or a diamond, either would be an improvement. Regarding your move to Waco, I lived in Amarillo and Breckenridge as a kid. It's hot in Texas.
 
I think it would be quite safe and accurate to say that if anyone had their table done by either Mark Gregory or RKC they would be very pleased with the result.

That debate should be put back up on the shelf, way up high. :wink:

best,
brian kc
 
oh, and hell yes, Chris, the name calling and similar should be shelved, as well.

even higher up. :thumbup:

best,
brian kc
 
cleary said:
Or one of the hundreds others around the country who set tables up.
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Andrew, while there may be "hundreds" of decent table mechanics across the USA, I assure you there are not many who perform their work at the level RKC, Mark Gregory, Jay Spelberg and a few others do.

I know you're not fond of Glen but to say he is a furniture assembler is an inaccurate knock.

Now, if you want to say he's rough around the edges and can be brusk, well that's a different story.

What he does with a table is pretty amazing.

You're not too far from me, you're always welcome if ever in my area to come hit some balls. See what you think.

Seriously, what I witnessed being done with my table by Glen, there are definitely not hundreds of other mechanics doing that. Or even 10.

Not even 5.

Fact.

best,
brian kc
 
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Kickin' Chicken said:
Andrew, while there may be "hundreds" of decent table mechanics across the USA, I assure you there are not many who perform their work at the level RKC, Mark Gregory, Jay Spelberg and a few others do.

I know you're not fond of Glen but to say he is a furniture assembler is an innacurate knock.

Now, if you want to say he's rough around the edges and can be brusk, well that's a different story.

What he does with a table is pretty amazing.

You're not too far from me, you're always welcome if you're ever in the area to come hit some balls. See for yourself.

Seriously, what I witnessed being done with my table by Glen, there are definitely not hundreds of other mechanics doing that. Or even 10.

Not even 5.

Fact.

best,
brian kc
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I couldn't and wouldn't doubt what you've said here, but you can rest assured that I (and likely others) would never avail ourselves of his services based on his actions here. Winning this AZ battle, is likely going to cost him the war. (Obviously he'll still have work, but one less for sure)
 
AzHousePro said:
It is a very slippery slope......Who determines what user is more valuable to the site than another? And where does the line stop when you allow it to happen once?
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Which is precisely why it shouldn't be allowed for certain members to be treated differently or get more leeway or chances than other members just because of "who they are". Agreed?

On a side note, the way I see it the "behavior" problems here could be the most reduced by doing just two things:
First, warnings or discipline absolutely have to be public for a multitude of reasons. When people see what others are being warned or banned for, it removes any gray area or doubt about what is or is not acceptable. You see the things that get people warned or banned and there is no doubt about what not to do. It also serves as a deterrent. When you get to see the warning, or the banning, it was waaaaay more deterrent effect because it is more real. It sure makes you think twice about what you will say or do when you get to see for yourself that action is being taken. It also removes the actuality or illusion of impropriety or disparity in the way people get treated. No more "but so and so never gets warned or banned complaints" when maybe they actually have but nobody knew about it. It also stops the people who are doing certain things that are against the rules because they see everybody else doing it without any repercussion (that they were aware of).

The second thing is that "punishment" for repeat offenses must be much tougher. Right now for the most part (especially if you are in the industry) you just get repeated slaps on the wrist over and over and over and over again ad nauseam for life. Since the punishment never escalates, and since there is never a threat of a lifetime ban simply for excessive repeated infractions, it is worth it to many people to continue to say or do what they want and take their little slap on the wrist and come back and continue to say or do what they want until they get the next little slap. By definition a punishment isn't a deterrent until it becomes severe enough to not be worth it any more. I believe in second and even third chances, but at a certain point of infractions someone is flat saying to your face "I don't respect you or your rules and could care less about them and I am above them and more important than them and they don't apply to me". That might fly in your house, but it wouldn't fly in mine, I don't care who they are. There isn't any reason someone should still be here after three warnings or bans as they have flat told you with their actions that they just don't care and don't intend to change. And certainly not after four or five warnings/bans. And more than that? Absolutely ridiculous.
 
Scott Lee said:
I agree with KC here. While I haven't met Russ, we've talked on Az a few times, and I hope to meet him when I'm out in S CA. I also am friends with RKC, and have seen and played on his work all over the country. I also know Mark Gregory and his work is excellent as well. I've also played on tables he's done all over the country (just did a lesson on one in Savannah GA last Friday). Sometimes everybody gets a little hotheaded, and says things they wish they hadn't. It's very true that you should type a response, and wait 5 minutes before hitting the post button! LOL

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
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This is the best post and advice in this (sadly, very entertaining) thread....

I see you live in Largo.... I hope to meet you in person sometime...
 
Louis, I appreciate you voicing your opinion and I see some of these as serious issues that need to be addressed. Some of them are easier to deal with than others.

As for JB, yes I sometimes looked the other way with John. I have always respected what I thought he could bring to a conversation here. Unfortunately, he tended to get very emotional and allowed it to get the better of him. That situation has been resolved.

I have been guilty of warning people publicly in the past, and I am working to not do that anymore. I am taking a much more active role in moderating the forums than I have in the past, and I do still intend to line up a handful of other mods to help with the task.

As for threads being deleted, sometimes they get so bad that it doesn't make sense to try to weed out the crap anymore. When a thread goes 20 pages and is littered with insults, both blatant and veiled, it gets to the point where you just have to kill it. Hopefully having additional mods will allow someone to gently nudge a thread back to good before it has to be jerked back.

lfigueroa said:
It is difficult to act as an adult when "the rules" are so capriciously enforced.

How do you act as an adult when John was tossed so many times, for short periods, only to be allowed to come back under his own name and aliases? How can you act as an adult when PJ gets banned for two years for behavior that never came close to what JB did on a regular basis? It's an illogical expectation, when "the rules" are enforced (or not) at a whim.

How do you act as an adult when some get publicly scolded, while others get a warning in private? When some guys are allowed to tell other members they are full of shee-at, are a douche bag, a dick, while others are not allowed anywhere near the same latitude?

How are the members to act as adults when Sister Mary Moderator is up front, slapping a ruler into her palm going, "I'm getting tired of this. Settle down class."

How can you even expect the membership-at-large to care, when entire discussions by the many, get vaporized because of the words of the few?

If you feel the membership is composed of children, and address them that way, no one can be surprised if that's what you get. If, OTOH, you believe there is some expectation of adult conduct here, then there needs to be even-handed, respectful treatment of the membership and what they write.

Lou Figueroa
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Kickin' Chicken said:
Andrew, while there may be "hundreds" of decent table mechanics across the USA, I assure you there are not many who perform their work at the level RKC, Mark Gregory, Jay Spelberg and a few others do.

I know you're not fond of Glen but to say he is a furniture assembler is an inaccurate knock.

Now, if you want to say he's rough around the edges and can be brusk, well that's a different story.

What he does with a table is pretty amazing.

You're not too far from me, you're always welcome if ever in my area to come hit some balls. See what you think.

Seriously, what I witnessed being done with my table by Glen, there are definitely not hundreds of other mechanics doing that. Or even 10.

Not even 5.

Fact.

best,
brian kc
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Brian, I've played on a table he set up and sadly, it didn't give me a boner. It was set up fine, it played fine... but so are sooooooo many other tables I've played on all over the country. He walks around like the Jesus of pool tables... LOL

Do they all tuck the cloth into the pockets neatly? No. Do they all do his glue technique or whatever... probably not. He is however just a dime a dozen at setting up furniture. (and yes, I'm ok with saying that's what he does)
 
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What gets me is that we are all supposed to be here because of a mutual love of the game of pool. Unfortunately, it sometimes seems that we have people here just because they want to stir up shit.

It isn't about discussing pool anymore. It has become more about proving how much they think they know about everything.

Yes, I sometimes lose my patience but I just don't understand the thinking that some of the posters are doing. At the end of the day, what do you prove by anonymously insulting someone on the Internet?

TATE said:
OK everybody - we have a chance to actually do something here if we stop calling each other names.

Mike has just expressed these opinions:

MIKE - AZ HOUSE PRO:

This is not an open discussion about an improper banning. It might have started off that way, but as is almost always the case, the insults started and the thread is out of control.

From reading this thread (and reported posts in my email), every single user here is the reason why every other user will never log in again. First it was Barton that was single handedly ruining the forums. Then it was CJ. Now it is RKC. Fer crying out loud guys. Can you give the insults a rest? Don't like someone? IGNORE THEM. How hard is that to understand? It is an online forum? If you win a battle here, you have won NOTHING!!!

You still can't make any more balls than you could before, and the game is still a mess.

This is like dealing with children.

Here lies a problem though. Half of the users say that warnings and bans should be handled privately, so as not to rub the users nose in it. The other half say that warnings should be public so that everyone knows that people do get warned.

Believe me, I have been doing a lot of warning lately. Users are getting warnings.


There is a difference between simply reporting a post (as we have asked users to do), and going with the "xxxx is the reason that no one ever comes to AzB anymore. They are the anti-christ, and I will never ever come to this site while they are allowed to post". Those messages get a little old.

It is a very slippery slope when we start allowing a user to give us an "It's them or me" ultimatum.

Who determines what user is more valuable to the site than another?

And where does the line stop when you allow it to happen once?

Mike

Hate to say it, but having been a boss my entire life, these comments are the way most bosses eventually feel about managing employees, especially the prima donna's. It gets old. Bosses don't really understand or sympathize with the emotional side of the job. We expect people to get along and respect each other as adults and professionals and just do their job. When it doesn't work out, someone usually gets moved or fired.

Why don't we all try a little harder not to fight, not to insult, not to criticize, not to antagonize? If you feel compelled to attack someone, take a day off and think about it. Usually that's enough.

Let's only report posts that are truly vicious.

Let's try to get along better.
Click to expand...
 
realkingcobra said:
Then when he.claims that Mark Gregory makes Gold Crowns play better than Diamond's because he knows something that I don't know, that's when he don't know what he's talking about, Mark and I talk all the time, and Mark just a week ago finally agreed with me about the miter angles in the corner pockets being what I use a better playing pockets, and that he was switching specs. That's NOT saying that Mark isn't a great table mechanic, because he is, but for Poolhustler to throw out the remarks that he did about the Brunswicks not playing good with Diamond angles is totally wrong.
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This coming from the 15th best table mechanic in the country knocking the 3rd best. You should be humble like the Dominguez's.
 
AzHousePro said:
This is not an open discussion about an improper banning. It might have started off that way, but as is almost always the case, the insults started and the thread is out of control.

From reading this thread (and reported posts in my email), every single user here is the reason why every other user will never log in again. First it was Barton that was single handedly ruining the forums. Then it was CJ. Now it is RKC.

Fer crying out loud guys. Can you give the insults a rest? Don't like someone? IGNORE THEM. How hard is that to understand? It is an online forum? If you win a battle here, you have won NOTHING!!!

You still can't make any more balls than you could before, and the game is still a mess.

This is like dealing with children.
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Well said Housepro, especially the last line. I came to AZB originally because it was a pool forum, with discussions like this it is now so much less.
 
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