Well of course but it means a lot more than just intention. They were the terms of a contract that never came to fruition because the players became afraid and turned on Big Fights. Cayton had the legal right to sue, but he decided not to bother and just walked away in disgust instead.
Issues Blowing Up At The Tornado Open
- Thread starter John Disque
- Start date
Well of course but it means a lot more than just intention. They were the terms of a contract that never came to fruition because the players became afraid and turned on Big Fights. Cayton had the legal right to sue, but he decided not to bother and just walked away in disgust instead.
Billiards Education Fund
Nope - possibly 4.0?
It's like a Mosconi Cup between youth pool players
Around 190 - ages 10-19?
Probably 20-30?
Now....let me ask you something.
How many juniors played in the VNEA Junior National Championships?
(Hint: that's a LEAGUE)
How many of the players at the BEF National Tournament qualified for their spots through a qualifier run by any of the pool leagues?
You've quoted the Atlantic Cup team. 6 kids. If you actually read all of my post instead of finding points to nitpick, you'd see I said there were some exceptions to the rule. I think I could find 6 people on here with IQs over 140. And perfect GPAs when they went to school.
I stick by my previous statements - leagues are keeping pool alive. The VNEA......that's just one of the leagues....had more junior players attend it than your BEF National Championship. I haven't even checked the stats for the CSI/BCAPL leagues, or the APA.....just one league beat the BEF.
I also checked the stats on the 2010 BEF tournament. 90% of the entrants were there from a qualification from a league of some form. So.....again....I'm sticking by my comments in my original post. Leagues are keeping pool.....even junior pool....alive.
And regarding your Atlantic Cup references and GPAs......let me show you some erroneous and misleading statistics for comparison:
http://www.thesportster.com/hockey/top-15-smartest-nhl-players/
15 players in the NHL that have ivy league degrees. I'm assuming their GPAs would be on par with the Atlantic Cup teams. Guess how many professional players actually go to university?
Read the story about Skylar Woodward. He worked at a dollar store through high school. He went to college for one year, then dropped out because he wanted to play pool. I think that's the more frequent story than Taylor Hansen.
https://www.obcues.com/pages/Taylor-Hansen.html
Notice that Taylor doesn't want to become a professional pool player. She wants to be a pediatrician. Good for her. She's using the money from the pool scholarships and tournaments to fund her education. She's also the statistical anomaly.
Keep referring to the 190 kids that the BEF reached. What I'd like to see is how many of those kids would be playing pool anyways, due to their parents being pool players. Taylor and Tristen Hansen are siblings. They got involved in pool because their dad bought them a table, and he was a standout local league player. So, again....those two kids came to the game through a league player.
I'm gonna do you and I both a favor and cut to the chase.
People need to see the big picture here. Stop putting out fires and focus first on building something fireproof. Stop blaming insane firemen who show up too late. Stop blaming the firetruck that doesn't travel fast enough. Stop blaming the hose for not delivering enough water.
The formula to build a successful sport, and industry surrounding it, has been studied, well understood, and well established in the distant past. And I do mean down to a science. So none of this is new ground, or revolutionary new concepts that we can't grasp, it's actually pretty simple stuff.
The sport and industry were doing quite well in the u.s. for many many decades, but when Brunswick pulled their support of pool, the fireproof structure was gone, and it all burned down. And with it died the last truly professional standards of promotion, play, and marketing.
The problem we face now is that all memory of that professional standard has been lost. All vestiges of the structure that once stood have been erased by the tin sheds of new promoters squatting on the burnt ashes of the former establishment. But why wouldn't they move in and take over? It's free land and nobody is around to police them?
At least two full generations of squatters and players have grown up never have seen, or even heard, of the professionals that paved the way for them....of the throngs of professionals across the country who were once looked upon as citywide and sometimes nationwide celebrities.
And at least two full generations of squatters, players, and even fans, have RARELY been held accountable to a professional standard, and have never really had to answer to anyone to a great extent. But, it's also not their fault either. You don't know what you don't know if you don't know what you don't know.
But now we know what we don't know. And as I mentioned before, all one has to do follow a very simple business plan to rebuild the industry, around the sport.
But why does it keep failing? Is it the bangers? Crooked promoters? The jackass pros who act the fool? Lack of juniors? Shady pool rooms? Handicaps? Hustlers? Everyone is quick to blame the ills of pool on all of the above, when in actuality, these are the symptoms of a greater problem. A problem that ultimately even the great and powerful Brunswick couldn't get past, and was the primary reason for their departure.
Brunswick had it right, from the bottom to the top. But the kryptonite that brought them to their knees was the Balance of Power, or more specifically a lack thereof. In Brunswick's mind, there were professional standards to uphold, and you had better meet them or else.
And it worked for a long time, but the players eventually came to resent the "gods" that dictated what they could and could not do, and of course chaos ensued and here we are today.
Square one practically. And the past is nobody's fault, now. It is what it is. The important part is that the steps taken moving forward reflect what we know about the past, and what doesn't work, and what does. The balance of power must be addressed properly or we will end up right back in this same spot.
1. The governing body
2.The players
3.The manufacturers
4.The fans
5.The promoter and/or event mngmnt
6. The Venue/room owners
All must play their role, and all must be equally represented. When they are not, pool will fail again and again. As I said in the beginning, look at the big picture. It's not hustlers. It's not a crooked promoter, it's not a lack of interested kids, or the lack of a pro tour. It's simply the fact that people keep trying the same shit, time and time again without addressing the most basic of fundamentals.
Who controls the power and what methods of accountability are being employed?
Fix that, and all the bricks will fall into place.
People need to see the big picture here. Stop putting out fires and focus first on building something fireproof. Stop blaming insane firemen who show up too late. Stop blaming the firetruck that doesn't travel fast enough. Stop blaming the hose for not delivering enough water.
The formula to build a successful sport, and industry surrounding it, has been studied, well understood, and well established in the distant past. And I do mean down to a science. So none of this is new ground, or revolutionary new concepts that we can't grasp, it's actually pretty simple stuff.
The sport and industry were doing quite well in the u.s. for many many decades, but when Brunswick pulled their support of pool, the fireproof structure was gone, and it all burned down. And with it died the last truly professional standards of promotion, play, and marketing.
The problem we face now is that all memory of that professional standard has been lost. All vestiges of the structure that once stood have been erased by the tin sheds of new promoters squatting on the burnt ashes of the former establishment. But why wouldn't they move in and take over? It's free land and nobody is around to police them?
At least two full generations of squatters and players have grown up never have seen, or even heard, of the professionals that paved the way for them....of the throngs of professionals across the country who were once looked upon as citywide and sometimes nationwide celebrities.
And at least two full generations of squatters, players, and even fans, have RARELY been held accountable to a professional standard, and have never really had to answer to anyone to a great extent. But, it's also not their fault either. You don't know what you don't know if you don't know what you don't know.
But now we know what we don't know. And as I mentioned before, all one has to do follow a very simple business plan to rebuild the industry, around the sport.
But why does it keep failing? Is it the bangers? Crooked promoters? The jackass pros who act the fool? Lack of juniors? Shady pool rooms? Handicaps? Hustlers? Everyone is quick to blame the ills of pool on all of the above, when in actuality, these are the symptoms of a greater problem. A problem that ultimately even the great and powerful Brunswick couldn't get past, and was the primary reason for their departure.
Brunswick had it right, from the bottom to the top. But the kryptonite that brought them to their knees was the Balance of Power, or more specifically a lack thereof. In Brunswick's mind, there were professional standards to uphold, and you had better meet them or else.
And it worked for a long time, but the players eventually came to resent the "gods" that dictated what they could and could not do, and of course chaos ensued and here we are today.
Square one practically. And the past is nobody's fault, now. It is what it is. The important part is that the steps taken moving forward reflect what we know about the past, and what doesn't work, and what does. The balance of power must be addressed properly or we will end up right back in this same spot.
1. The governing body
2.The players
3.The manufacturers
4.The fans
5.The promoter and/or event mngmnt
6. The Venue/room owners
All must play their role, and all must be equally represented. When they are not, pool will fail again and again. As I said in the beginning, look at the big picture. It's not hustlers. It's not a crooked promoter, it's not a lack of interested kids, or the lack of a pro tour. It's simply the fact that people keep trying the same shit, time and time again without addressing the most basic of fundamentals.
Who controls the power and what methods of accountability are being employed?
Fix that, and all the bricks will fall into place.
Reading this, you and I are in perfect agreement. Which makes me wonder why you decided to target my post, but to each their own.
The reason I use the leagues as an example of a successful model for running pool is your points 1-6. They have all of the 6 covered. It's structured. Events are established. Players know the rules. And the codes of conduct. And it's pretty much a "take it or don't join it" situation.
I absolutely agree with the above statements. I don't know how you label me as one of the whiners. I'm actually a non whiner. I'm telling pros to get up off their ass and do some work. If they actually treated pool as a career, they may do well. And I am not talking about practicing. I'm talking about doing things that will secure them a living, and a "workplace".
Great post.
Just one comment to add: Pool didn't fall apart when Brunswick pulled the plug. It never really got started in the U.S.. Even with Brunswick and other sponsors on board, it still wasn't enough for players to make an honest living. Yes, it was at least a little something for a decent amount of time, but 99 percent of the players still had to keep their day jobs.
The answer has always been about connections -- knowing the right people who are willing to use their connections in a proper way to help an industry to grow. Those connections are now farther and farther away as time goes on. The potential for new connections is bleak, unfortunately.
Arnold Palmer had it right. He courted corporate America more than any other athlete in his day. It paid off. We had one of the best possible connections in the world right in our own backyard --- Dick Helmstetter. Yes, the cuemaker who also created and owned Big Bertha golf clubs, now a part of Callaway Golf. Dick even walked away from us, seeing the lack of potential, and he was one of us. We, as an industry, failed to convince him that it was worth it to stick with us.
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It is very refreshing to read somebody express their thoughts on this forum, especially this thread, without attacking others. Thanks for the great read. It has a lot of good content and food for thought.
I would flip number 3 and with number 2, because if the governing body and manufacturers (who are gonna' be paying to sponsor) are healthy, it should trickle down.
Excellent post and well-thought out arguments. However, even if 1-6 are achieved, pool still has an incredibly uphill battle to become a money-sport. That uphill battle is that pool is not a spectator sport -- 99% of the people who play it have no interest in watching it. They don't know (or care) about crooked promoters, lack of a governing body, etc. They just know that they enjoy playing...but not watching.
The money for all money-sports comes from advertisers. And advertisers need a return on their investment -- which means you've got to guarantee them 80,000-100,000 viewers. Anything less than that and you'll have to self-produce the TV show (i.e. you buy the airtime from the network, sell your own ads and take all the risk). Lots of the outdoor shows (fishing, bow-hunting, etc.) do it successfully.
You don't bite the hand that feeds you ..... unless you're a pool professional. It was this way all too often in our sport, and the latest installment in the series is the Tornado Open.
Thanks, Vivian, for creating this wonderful event with more total added money than all but a couple of American pro pool events. It is reminiscent of the old days in which the men and the women shared the professional stage and the mixed scotch doubles event is a great new innovation at the pro level. Add in the amateur events to the mix and you've got the most exciting new event we've seen in America in some time.
I don't doubt for a moment that there is room for improvement in the Tornado Open, but those who publicly bash Vivian are making a mistake and may dissuade both her and the Seminoles from continuing to maintain the scale of this great event. Work with her, because we've all got something to lose here.
Tread carefully, pro pool players, for your own sake. Otherwise, this could be the Ultimate 10-ball all over again, in which the financial muscle behind the event ran out of patience and walked away.
Thanks, Vivian, for creating this wonderful event with more total added money than all but a couple of American pro pool events. It is reminiscent of the old days in which the men and the women shared the professional stage and the mixed scotch doubles event is a great new innovation at the pro level. Add in the amateur events to the mix and you've got the most exciting new event we've seen in America in some time.
I don't doubt for a moment that there is room for improvement in the Tornado Open, but those who publicly bash Vivian are making a mistake and may dissuade both her and the Seminoles from continuing to maintain the scale of this great event. Work with her, because we've all got something to lose here.
Tread carefully, pro pool players, for your own sake. Otherwise, this could be the Ultimate 10-ball all over again, in which the financial muscle behind the event ran out of patience and walked away.
other sports
SJM, I've always been a fan, but wait a second here...the reason this doesn't happen in other sports isn't because the players are more professional, it's because the promoters are. If football teams failed to pay players out on their contracts, or told the players they weren't needed and should get the F*** out and not come back because they questioned it, I can assure you there would be much more negative publicity than some shocked emoji's on a forum.
SJM, I've always been a fan, but wait a second here...the reason this doesn't happen in other sports isn't because the players are more professional, it's because the promoters are. If football teams failed to pay players out on their contracts, or told the players they weren't needed and should get the F*** out and not come back because they questioned it, I can assure you there would be much more negative publicity than some shocked emoji's on a forum.
Yes, but the difference is that, in the high-profile big business sports, the owners need the players, who have demonstrated how much revenue they can produce time and time again. Players in the major sports like football are not paid by promoters, but instead by their employers.
Pro pool players carry the burden of having to prove that they can deliver the goods for promoters, many of whom are marginally profitable or even unprofitable (see the Southern Classic and the Ultimate 10-ball for two recent examples).
Promoters/producers of pool events hold most of the cards at this moment in our sport's history, but there's no reason that it can't change. For the time being, however, pool players will have to hold fast to the few who are still willing to invest in their sport, and this will likely necessitate diplomacy above and beyond what might seem reasonable.
The few promoters who still roll the dice on pro pool need to be patronized. It's not about what's fair, it's about what it takes to keep promoters involved in pool. While it may seem comforting to some to say that certain promoters are unworthy of respect and support, such a point of view lies outside of what's practical, because if players bend over backwards to work with promoters, they can succeed over time.
In pool, as we've seen all too often, sponsors/promoters/producers are not easily replaceable, and it calls for a mindset among pro players that bears no relationship to the plight of professionals in other sports.
Agreed but educating pro pool players on the mindset is a huge undertaking.
For a promoter to do that, I'd bet they'd quit before they attempt anything.
Players talking each other is good, but someone has to know how to manage those personalities and feelings that encounter while dealing with road conditions.
Its a lot to ask for someone that has little effort give and lack needed guidance. Players can make up the difference but someone has to know how to do it, in the moments of need.
How did it all work out? :wink:
Yes, the players were so afraid that the top men turned their back on the best promoter Pool had ever seen. And for what, a bunch of empty promises.
Cayton never followed through on any of it (okay he produced one event for eight women, his first and last!). There was nothing to stop him from creating events for the women (or the men for that matter).
We both know that if he had actually followed through the players would have followed him.
The reality is that Cayton got attached to Mike Tyson and left Pool behind. You can spin it any way you want that makes you feel better.
P.S. The Caesars tournaments were first aired in prime time on ESPN. The reruns were often shown after Midnight. So you got it half right.
You don't seem to have a clue about what makes a sport grow. It was a tremendous benefit to professional pool and the players to get as much air time as possible on ESPN. That was what was happening with all of Richie's tournaments. Networks don't pay for sports until they have established an audience and it was beginning to happen. Unfortunately, some players took some bad advice and made some bad decisions that cost them until this day! ESPN only agreed to produce women's events for TV if you footed the bill, to the tune of 50K each. And YOU went for it!
P.P.S. I know you were talking about the women who backed out with Cayton for whatever reason (you say they were afraid). I can tell you a few more bad decisions the women made but you probably don't want to hear it. It's no wonder there is no WPBA tour now.
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This goes both ways Stu. The players who support these events (64 women and 80 men) should be treated as professionals and the event should be run that way as well. There is no question this promoter had every opportunity to do just that and failed on many levels. To just brush that off like no big deal is a mistake imo.
To continue I will tell you what Pool needs if it is ever to be successful as a recognized professional sport. It's not all that other stuff Bond talks about either. That's all well and good, but until some very wealthy entrepreneur (who loves pool) comes along and takes the bull by the horns, nothing's going to happen. Paul Allen saved pro bowling and our sport needs a savior too. Many thought it would be Trudough, but he proved himself untrustworthy. Kind of like Cayton and Mackey in years gone by. Oh well, what's next?
This goes both ways Stu. The players who support these events (64 women and 80 men) should be treated as professionals and the event should be run that way as well. There is no question this promoter had every opportunity to do just that and failed on many levels. To just brush that off like no big deal is a mistake imo.
To continue I will tell you what Pool needs if it is ever to be successful as a recognized professional sport. It's not all that other stuff Bond talks about either. That's all well and good, but until some very wealthy entrepreneur (who loves pool) comes along and takes the bull by the horns, nothing's going to happen. Paul Allen saved pro bowling and our sport needs a savior too. Many thought it would be Trudough, but he proved himself untrustworthy. Kind of like Cayton and Mackey in years gone by. Oh well, what's next?
Jay, you and I have always had a similar vision for our sport, but that said, the question in front of us is whether players should publicly bash promoters who haven't given them their due respect. My opinion is that negative feedback to promoters needs to be offered behind closed doors and in private. I am of the opinion that this will sensitize those promoters to the issues that the players face and it gives them a chance to address those issues going forward without losing face.
A good example is the Joss Tour, in which Mike Zuglan, based on what his players have asked for over the years, molded things over time and ensured orderly events which virtually never run late. The Turning Stone events fill the field of 128 well in advance of the event date, a testament to how keen players are to play in Joss events, but it wasn't always that way. The trust between promoter and players was nurtured and grew over time, and that's a credit to both Zuglan and his loyal contingent of players.
For me, the Tornado Open is a breath of fresh air for pro pool, with mixed pro scotch doubles, men's pro singles and women's pro singles. It's the most innovative idea in pro pool in recent times and while it may need improvement in numerous respects, the focus has to be on sustaining it. Cooperation is the path to ensuring this, and, regardless of the facts, public bashing of those who run the event isn't a good thing.
As for the "angel" being pool's only hope, I think you'll need a wealthy person who is a lousy businessman, for only a lousy businessman would persist with an investment that shows no growth prospects. Pool's product needs development, for without such development, it will fail even if the so called "angel" arrives. It's easy and convenient to say "give me enough money and I can sell pro pool" but far more difficult to recognize that "improve the pool product and then somebody might be able to sell it" is a far more realistic point of view.
Looking forward to seeing you at the US Open, Jay.
# 5 is promoter
Promotion is presentation.
Presentation is production.
And good production can make even a boring golf tournament exciting.
Each # has a significant role, which is not as trivial as their titles may seem.
And sorry Jay, but the rich Angel won't matter. Brunswick had all the money needed to do anything they wanted and it still failed. Players walked away again and again and even sued. The balance of power is key. Everyone represented and accountable, every step of the way. It is a standard protocol in business because we arent stupid enough to stick leaches on our legs anymore.
Herding Cats
How does one herd cats or hold them accountable? How many more hoops should a promoter be put through? Sounds to me like the business is a pure pain in a**. Who in their right mind would want to do it? There has to be an easier way to make a living. What kind of lucrative affair is promoter?
How does one herd cats or hold them accountable? How many more hoops should a promoter be put through? Sounds to me like the business is a pure pain in a**. Who in their right mind would want to do it? There has to be an easier way to make a living. What kind of lucrative affair is promoter?
FranCrimi;5685071[B said:
..........
]Just one comment to add: Pool didn't fall apart when Brunswick pulled the plug. It never really got started in the U.S.
Ain't that the truth. It started when the men/women split playing together, then the women on TV for awhile, then Allison riding the top for many years, then, a board of pool players running a business.
The answer has always been about connections
And also has worked against us, Vegas and the pool player dump incident.
He courted corporate America
We have had our chances, but the nature of a true pool player in the US seems to rise too also being me, me, Me, ME. We've seen beer and support from that industry at times. Mizerak blowing his gig with Miller Lite beer, a GREAT commercial (said something negative about women), and then Danny Medina blowing his gig with Coors Beer in Golden CO. I'm sure there were a few others. Over the decades, there have been a few opportunities here and there that did seem hopeful at times to increase play.