Issues Blowing Up At The Tornado Open

Jam, you know I like you. That said, you doing what you are now, just posting pictures to create bandwidth to derail a topic , is nothing more than trolling. You right away want to play the "female" card. Nothing in this thread was about male vs. female in any way. But, just because a person was shown to be wrong about a topic, and that person happened to be a female, you right away want to cry that this board is against females. That is no different than a black person crying racism about everything.

Please don't be "one of those people", you are way better than that.

There were some really good points made in this thread. That Fran won't actually discuss anything is nothing more than her problem. She instantly views any disagreement with her as a pissing contents, as she stated. That is because she always views herself as unerring. There is no room for a different opinion. Her ego is huge, which is why she always reminds us of her "great" accomplishments, and how the rest of us just don't know what she knows. If she actually cared about the sport, instead of just herself, she would discuss things and try to sway minds that don't see things the same way she does.

How long one has been here, or on any other forum means nothing in regards to the actual content of their post.

It is okay to disagree on topics, Neil. But when it comes to hurling insults at others, it becomes trolling, in my opinion.

I have taken a long hiatus from this forum many times, as have you, and it's because of the hurling of insults, as exhibited on this thread, that is the reason why people leave here, longstanding members leave here.

Heck, I check in during the morning sometimes and see that an entire day's worth of posts doesn't go past a page these days. It used to be that an entire day of posting went 4 and 5 pages on the Main Forum.

As far as adding bandwidth, if I'm going to be accused of it, then, by golly, I'll do it. And if that's being troll to you, I'd much rather be that kind of a troll than one who hurls mean-spirited, nasty, dirty rotten remarks and insults to others.

Have a nice day! :)
 
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Jam, you know I like you. That said, you doing what you are now, just posting pictures to create bandwidth to derail a topic , is nothing more than trolling. You right away want to play the "female" card. Nothing in this thread was about male vs. female in any way. But, just because a person was shown to be wrong about a topic, and that person happened to be a female, you right away want to cry that this board is against females. That is no different than a black person crying racism about everything.

Please don't be "one of those people", you are way better than that.

There were some really good points made in this thread. That Fran won't actually discuss anything is nothing more than her problem. She instantly views any disagreement with her as a pissing contents, as she stated. That is because she always views herself as unerring. There is no room for a different opinion. Her ego is huge, which is why she always reminds us of her "great" accomplishments, and how the rest of us just don't know what she knows. If she actually cared about the sport, instead of just herself, she would discuss things and try to sway minds that don't see things the same way she does.

How long one has been here, or on any other forum means nothing in regards to the actual content of their post.

And one more thing, Neil, if I may. :) There most definitely is discrimination in the pool world. Men feel as though their opinions only hold merit.

I have experienced it in pool rooms throughout my entire life. It's not just here on this forum, though there are some who think it is okay to hurl vulgar names at females.

Unless you walk in my shoes, Neil, you can't understand how I feel. Same goes for you, too. I'm sure you have strong feelings about things that I may not understand, either.

Best to you always.
 
And one more thing, Neil, if I may. :) There most definitely is discrimination in the pool world. Men feel as though their opinions only hold merit.

I have experienced it in pool rooms throughout my entire life. It's not just here on this forum, though there are some who think it is okay to hurl vulgar names at females.

Unless you walk in my shoes, Neil, you can't understand how I feel. Same goes for you, too. I'm sure you have strong feelings about things that I may not understand, either.

Best to you always.

I'm not saying you are not correct in that view point. But, I am asking you to not let it bias every post made about someone just because they also happen to be a female.

Rush to support your favorite topics about pool. Don't be in a rush to claim gender bias at every turn. First make sure it actually is about gender bias. In this thread, there wasn't really anything about gender, just about persons.
 
I'm not saying you are not correct in that view point. But, I am asking you to not let it bias every post made about someone just because they also happen to be a female.

Rush to support your favorite topics about pool. Don't be in a rush to claim gender bias at every turn. First make sure it actually is about gender bias. In this thread, there wasn't really anything about gender, just about persons.

Neil, I am of a different opinion than you on this topic about some -- not all -- of the posts in this thread. I feel there is gender bias. I feel that some men on this forum would NEVER speak to a man the way they do females.

Again, I'm sorry we disagree on this topic. We do hold the same view on so many others subject matters that are related to pool.

Females, however, on AzBilliards are sometimes treated poorly in terms of how others write posts directed at them. That is my opinion, and I am sticking with it.
 
I like knowing facts before I post, instead of just pulling stuff out of my ass..

I don't need to know the particulars. Or the history..

Ironic, isn't it.

Have you actually been to the u.s.?
For as much as you have to say about American pool, you actually don't know that much about it.

Your diatribe seems to have been derived from all the nonsense posted here, and not from reality, which is understandable I suppose. But running your mouth about subjects that you clearly don't understand isn't going to " help pool" either .

If it concerns you so much, the state of u.s. pool, Then get off your ass and physically do something to change it. Otherwise, go whine somewhere else.

What we DO have in the u.s. is a bunch of whiners that like to quarterback from the armchair. Do yourself a favor and don't add another body to the pile of shit that we call the peanut gallery.

" oh gawd help us pool is dying! "

" ok, well, what are doing to change it?"

" complaining and blaming"

" how's that working for ya?"
 
Neil, I am of a different opinion than you on this topic about some -- not all -- of the posts in this thread. I feel there is gender bias. I feel that some men on this forum would NEVER speak to a man the way they do females.

Again, I'm sorry we disagree on this topic. We do hold the same view on so many others subject matters that are related to pool.

Females, however, on AzBilliards are sometimes treated poorly in terms of how others write posts directed at them. That is my opinion, and I am sticking with it.

Perhaps you could point out specifically where there is gender bias. Like Neil, I don't see any either. But I might just not know exactly what to look for.
 
Ironic, isn't it.

Have you actually been to the u.s.?
For as much as you have to say about American pool, you actually don't know that much about it.

Your diatribe seems to have been derived from all the nonsense posted here, and not from reality, which is understandable I suppose. But running your mouth about subjects that you clearly don't understand isn't going to " help pool" either .

If it concerns you so much, the state of u.s. pool, Then get off your ass and physically do something to change it. Otherwise, go whine somewhere else.

What we DO have in the u.s. is a bunch of whiners that like to quarterback from the armchair. Do yourself a favor and don't add another body to the pile of shit that we call the peanut gallery.

" oh gawd help us pool is dying! "

" ok, well, what are doing to change it?"

" complaining and blaming"

" how's that working for ya?"

Yep. Been in the US a bunch of times. Pretty much lived there for a two year span. I've also traveled to other countries as well. So I have a pretty good perspective of how other countries do things.

So, tell me....have you ever been OUT of the US? I'm guessing not....
 
Yep. Been in the US a bunch of times. Pretty much lived there for a two year span. I've also traveled to other countries as well. So I have a pretty good perspective of how other countries do things.

So, tell me....have you ever been OUT of the US? I'm guessing not....

Sure I have, but that doesn't have a thing to do with the topic at hand.
I don't go onto pool forums and claim to know what's wrong with pool in other countries. And even if I did, what good would it do?

Your concerns are, for the most part, well founded, but your concerns do not reflect reality in many cases, so maybe those facts that you like to check should be checked a little better.

Or maybe, you should concern yourself with something productive instead of yammering on about our evil hustling culture, our vile promoters and our kids with no desire to play.
 
Sure I have, but that doesn't have a thing to do with the topic at hand.
I don't go onto pool forums and claim to know what's wrong with pool in other countries. And even if I did, what good would it do?

Your concerns are, for the most part, well founded, but your concerns do not reflect reality in many cases, so maybe those facts that you like to check should be checked a little better.

Or maybe, you should concern yourself with something productive instead of yammering on about our evil hustling culture, our vile promoters and our kids with no desire to play.

Feel free to point out my concerns that "do not reflect reality"....

Oh, and I'm really not concerned. You'd get that if you read my posts. I have other things in my life besides pool.
 
Hear Hear!

I don't need to know the particulars. Or the history. Pool has been filled with shady characters that have found almost every way to short change sponsors, backers, and supporters. This is clearly evident in the fact that promotions are still screwing over people to this day.

Integrity is defined as doing the right thing even when no one is watching. Not ONE organization, to date, has tried to do the right thing for the game of pool. They have tried to make money. Or make a sustainable pro tour. It would be like deciding you want to become a farmer, and then going out and asking everyone else to plant your crops, till your fields, sell the crops, and then just hand you the money.

Not one kid I know aspires to be a pool player. Not one. And as a parent, I wouldn't want my kids aspiring to be professional pool players. We seem to honour the hustlers, the guys that blew their bankroll rolling balls on a table, or revel in the stories of players that put the equivalent of my house up their nose, but played one hell of a pool game. I guess I'm in the minority. I like the guys like Oliver Ortmann. Or Ralf Souquet. Or Thorsten Hohmann. The guys that play tournaments. And play in straight pool leagues. Who don't gamble, and treat the game with the dignity it deserves. They don't play pool in 3XL Hustlin' t-shirts, and Air Jordans. But this board seems to be filled with people that just want to argue about who Skyler can gamble with even, or whine about how new cloth has ruined the game.

If you actually want to build a pro tour, you need to get enough people interested in pool to tune in and watch an event. That starts at the amateur level. For every player in the NHL, there are 1000 kids playing hockey. For every MLB player, there are 1000 little leaguers. Those kids play sports through their school years, and college, and if they're good enough, they become a pro.

I like pool. I, for the most part, can't stand the majority of pool players. Let me correct that statement. I find that pool seems to bring out the underlying personality in most people in an accelerated manner. When people lose at league, they usually blame the handicapping. "That guy is a sandbagger". Well, I guess you could think that. You could also think about the 2 8 balls you missed, and the 3 shots you played horrible position. But...no...let's dwell on placing the blame on something beyond your control. That's more comforting. So....let's whine about the fact that pros aren't paid as well as we think they should. Let's talk about what's wrong with the game, and tell people that they should give more money to the pro players. Or let's petition leagues like the APA to give some of their money to the pros. That'll fix pool!

I knock out a 50 hr week. I get paid a salary, and commissions. The more I sell, the more I make. And I manage to play pool at a decent level. There were legends in the 50s and 60s that actually held full time jobs, and managed to compete at a pro level. So....how about those pro players take life seriously, and go get jobs? If pool isn't paying the bills....it's time to find a new gig. Pool in North America is dying. For a good reason. It's filthy and sleazy. It's hustlers hustling hustlers. No parent I know wants their kid hanging out at the pool hall. And it isn't the smart kid in the class that's running to the pool hall after school to play a few racks. Now....before you tell me about your darling child, nephew, granddaughter, etc....yes, there are exceptions to the rules. The best players in the room are usually the ones that are in dead end, medial jobs. The league players are the people with careers, and disposable incomes. Yet these are the people that most of AZ look down upon. Those stupid "league players". You laugh at them, and mock them. And they're the people with the bankroll to fund your dream. It's like a landscaper laughing at people who hire him to mow their lawn.

Promotions and promoters do not serve the game. They serve themselves. Organizations like the WPBA, WPA, etc....are purely self serving as well. They're kind of a "union" of pool players that negotiate "fair treatment" for their employees. Yes....you do a ton for your own cause. But you do nothing for the game. The APA, BCAPL, TAP, and any other league.......do more for pool than all of the pro factions put together have ever done for pool. A league captain has a few friends over for beers, and their buddy Bob, after seeing a pool trophy, says "I used to play pretty good"....and then the conversation starts....the next week, Bob buys a cue, and joins his friend's team. Or goes out and plays with one of his buddies after work. And another pool player is in "the game". No one watches TV, sees a professional pool match, and then hops on Seyberts, buys $2k worth of cues and accessories, and hits the table to try and do what they just saw. Pool is a social experience. It's playing around a table with friends, putting some money into the pot, and chasing a trip to Vegas, watching points on a weekly basis, and cheering on your 3 as they win their first match.

I think the pros would be well served to try and partner up with the leagues. Start showing up on a weekly basis, just as a drop in. Talk with the lowly leaguers. Maybe two could show up and play some games in the same pool room...give those people something to talk about. "Hey, these two pros showed up at league the other night, and you had to see these guys play!! They even signed autographs and handed out their cards!!". "That's pretty awesome....what were their names?". "I think one was named Corey....and the other guy was Mike". Then, those guys are on YouTube the next day searching up "Corey Mike pool", and they get links to the Mosconi Cup, and will see the jump shot by Corey that parked on the rail, and then fell back to the table.

Promote the game. Promote yourself. If the pro players keep leaving the promotions and marketing up to other people that pretend they're in this for "the good of the game", they'll remain where they are.

Fantastic post Shawn!!:grin:
 
Men have traditionally alienated -- and been rude -- to women in the pool world. It's as if they think women have no worth or should express any opinions. Wish it wasn't so, but it is true.

Hopefully, this trend discrimination of females in the pool world will fade away before pool does. :o

Things were pretty bad here when everyone wanted TAR to be a big thing.
Things were pretty bad here when everyone wanted the IPT to be a big thing.
Things were pretty bad here when players hinted at walking out of a major US pool tournament.


JAM traditionally people will be rude. I am guilty of being rude, some people grow up.

Signs of progress are people stopped talking about "big change" like IPT, TAR and are starting to talk about the legitimacy of pro pool survival.


It seem like whatever people aren't supporting here does well. Charlie Williams still gets blamed for everything, but that has died down and he is still producing events.

Looks like Vivian is getting a traditional AZB initiation.
 
Feel free to point out my concerns that "do not reflect reality"....

Oh, and I'm really not concerned. You'd get that if you read my posts. I have other things in my life besides pool.

Sure have a lot to say for someone not really concerned.

We can start with something easy.
Ever heard of the BEF?
Do you know the grade point average of this year's U.S. Atlantic Challenge Cup team?
Do you know what the Atlantic Challenge Cup is?
Do you know how many players attended this year's BEF junior nationals and the age range?
Do you know how many qualifiers were held for the junior nationals?
 
I saw many of those TV events don't recall one being 128 player field though ,, most I saw was 16 player fields , hand full of them a year


1

If you're talking about the tournaments Richie Florence put on in conjunction with Caesars, you are very confused. We had over 100 players at Caesars Tahoe and large fields at Caesars Boardwalk in Atlantic City and Caesars Palace in Vegas.
 
I wasn't going to post anything but it got to the point where I felt I was done wrong.

First I signed up for the 10 ball 3 weeks ago...because of work I couldn't make it...I tried to get my money back but like it says on the website...no refunds...which I understood and didn't make a fuss because rules are rules.

Then I tried to get someone to play in my place, just change the name and she allowed it but then change her mind a couple of hours later...which was disheartening and I was very disappointed but I again understood it was her call and didn't make a fuss or start threads...nothing ( still thought this was a bit of a dick move since this has the best players in the world and who am I going to bring in to play...maybe Willie Mosconi back from the dead, Idk) and the touney was not full, but whatever.

What got me and why I'm posting now, it is because i sent an email to her before she did the draw that I was still trying to make it and that I didn't see my name on the list. The brackets were up and i wasn't there...sent another email and she responded with "i took you off because you told me you weren't coming" she said she didn't see my email...uhmmm we sent 6 emails back and forth and that's the one you didn't see.

So now I'm pissed I was going to be able to make it last minute but now I wasn't in the tournament...and my $550 gone...oh well you live and you learn...this is why Pool is the way it is...

People are going to say there is 2 sides to every story and I understand that...if someone from her camp comes here to try and say I'm a liar I got all the emails, dates and witnesses to prove otherwise.

Again I wasn't going to say anything I even told her that on an email but that was before she took my name off and acted like I didn't even exist, she change the outcome of the tournament by taking my name off, even if I didn't make it someone would have gotten lucky and gotten a free round. I will not say anymore on the subject...this was ridiculous.

Well Sir ..you weren't the only one. She got me too (but on the Amateur Side). I had to change plans way back in the first of August - 7 weeks prior- due to trying to protect my family from the ZIKA issue there... News had broke about the CDC and WHO travel advisory for the Miami area and we had scheduled that event and a Cruise for that next week based out of Miami and needed to change plans..

VV told me "NO refunds" even though I had 2 guys' names, phone numbers and emails that wanted to take my spot... She said NOPE.....hey had to pay entry and get on the list..... that was 6 WEEKS OUT.....

I thought so much for supporting her events after that I just told her to 'ENJOY my donation'...I guess.

After reading thru all these AZB posts and listening to ABR radio, man talk about somebody being a little B***h..

I'd really like to know Just how many people paid her their ENTRY FEE (early) but for whatever reason couldn't make it...??

Randy
 
Dozens of top-shelf professional players are chiming-in about their grievances with this event. Most of them are addressing the added money, which is nowhere near the "guaranteed" money posted on the promotional literature, fliers and articles distributed through the pool-world.

Other players are reporting: being treated disrespectfully, having their questions ignored, favoritism and just an altogether tense environment.

The players are not known to stir pots and include the likes of Tony Chohan, Darren Appleton, John Morra, Rodney Morris, Devin Poteet, Drake Niepoetter, Mike DeLawder, and many more..


She just said "I pro-rated to punish the players"?!
"You don't care about the men" ?!
"You would never have invited the men"?!
"I hated to even pay him"

Enough-If it can be destroyed by the truth, then it deserves to be destroyed!

It's all the men's fault??
Look in a mirror.
I am a woman and I'm calling you out on BS!

http://www.americanbilliardradio.com/
 
Nice story Fran. So much for accuracy though. Richie was putting major POOL TOURNAMENTS on ESPN before Cayton came along and tried to corner the market. The only tournaments Cayton ever put on TV were some four player exhibitions and the Legends of Pool with eight senior players. Richie was putting on REAL pool tournaments with fields of over 100 players! I said pool tournaments, not exhibitions, with real prize money. Earl won the third Caesars Tahoe event for $33,000 PLUS A $12,000 car in 1982! It was on ESPN and he played Steve Mizerak in the finals. How do I know all this? I was the TD of that event.

Cayton did the players and pool no favors for telling them not to sign the television releases for Richie's final tournament at Caesars Palace in 1984. He effectively killed Richie's deal with ESPN and the big money tournaments that went with it. The added television exposure could only help pool and the pool players as well. Cayton NEVER put on any tournaments like those, as I said before. Richie had a chance to create a major pool tour with multiple six figure events (all televised) in the 1980's and it all died that day. The Caesars Palace tournament went on anyway, with Earl winning (another 25k!). Richie paid off all the prize money (over 100K) and never did another event.

The players who sided with Cayton took the wrong side imo, effectively shooting themselves in the foot with a shotgun! Cayton never did anything for the great majority of players, only a handful (Hopkins, Mizerak, a couple of the women and the Legends getting pay checks from his events). Cayton quickly moved on to managing Mike Tyson (with Jimmy Jacobs) and gave up on pool without a care in the world for the people he hurt. If that's your hero, then good for you!

P.S. Richie was a damn good negotiator for the pool players. He actually cared about them, being one himself. His goal was a big money tour with players earning nice paychecks. I was with him when he negotiated a great sponsorship deal with Budweiser. They were putting up 25K per event plus guaranteeing so many commercials on ESPN per show. Caesars World was also throwing money (up to 25K per tourney) into the pot. Cayton was out for Bill Cayton and didn't give a damn about any pool player. Please feel free to keep your FANtasy about him going though. Oh and by the way, if you were involved in negotiating the WPBA television deal with ESPN, I wouldn't be bragging about it. How much were the production costs per event? Something like 50K, right. And the WPBA had to foot the bill. That was not the case in Richie's events!

How much did ESPN pay Richie for the events that were covered?

You don't have to agree with me and I understand your frustration but we had a really good chance to expand with Cayton because of his connections. He was going to start small and expand to greater things.

For example, in our WPBA events before Cayton, we averaged $500 added money per event. In our first event with Cayton, we had free Atlantic City hotel stays and NO ENTRY FEES. The prize fund for 8 players for that first event was $25,000 with last place of 1000. That was going to be just the beginning of bigger things to come --- bigger events with more players.

In our contract with Big Fights, Cayton had to produce. He was required to produce a minimum of a certain number of events each year with increasing prize money with hotels paid and NO ENTRY FEES, and he agreed to all the terms. We were going to get big name sponsors --- yes sponsors that wouldn't even give anyone in the pool world a nod and still don't. The plan was to develop into a high prize fund legitimate tour where players could actually earn a living, with ESPN coverage that wasn't going to be at 3AM. Not only were there no ESPN production costs, but ESPN was going to pay us for the airtime.

Cayton was gong to do the same for the men. And yes, of course this was threatening to other promoters. Why wouldn't it be? This was no different than what Barry Hearn was doing across the pond. And you all know how much everyone admires Barry Hearn.

But the players became afraid. They were convinced by competing promoters that they were going to lose their livelihood.
 
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How much did ESPN pay Richie for the events that were covered?

You don't have to agree with me and I understand your frustration but we had a really good chance to expand with Cayton because of his connections. He was going to start small and expand to greater things.

For example, in our WPBA events before Cayton, we averaged $500 added money per event. In our first event with Cayton, we had free Atlantic City hotel stays and NO ENTRY FEES. The prize fund for 8 players for that first event was $25,000 with last place of 1000. That was going to be just the beginning of bigger things to come --- bigger events with more players.

In our contract with Big Fights, Cayton had to produce. He was required to produce a minimum of a certain number of events each year with increasing prize money with hotels paid and NO ENTRY FEES, and he agreed to all the terms. We were going to get big name sponsors --- yes sponsors that wouldn't even give anyone in the pool world a nod and still don't. The plan was to develop into a high prize fund legitimate tour where players could actually earn a living.

Cayton was gong to do the same for the men. And yes, of course this was threatening to other promoters. Why wouldn't it be? This was no different than what Barry Hearn was doing across the pond. And you all know how much everyone admires Barry Hearn.

But the players became afraid. They were convinced by competing promoters that they were going to lose their livelihood.

Do you even realize how many times you use the phrase "going to" in your response?

"Going to" means the intention of "trying" to accomplish something. It's a subjective word and it's usage usually follows a failure.

Just an observation.
 
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