How Fractional Aiming Systems Help
- Thread starter Patrick Johnson
- Start date
Wow, I went to lunch and shot a little and I missed 4 pages already!!! Some comments below:
I do the same thing mohrt, start with the CTEL and then shift as necessary to focus in on the secondary line. I too believe that the purpose of the CTEL is to avoid perception errors and provide a consistent approach to achieving the correct visual and position.
Neil, I watched the DVD initially last year with much anticipation, especially after meeting Stan the previous year and discussing the system briefly, as well as all of the conversation here on the forum. I stopped watching it half way through not once, but twice, out of frustration. Now my questions were quickly cleared up by people here and Stan himself, but it was not crystal clear on the DVD, especially to someone like me who is very analytical and precise.
I agree, once you "get it", all the material is there. There are just a few key concepts that are there but not explained more fully, and some discussion of the progression of which aim lines and pivots to use to bring it all together would have been nice. I think an extra 5 - 10 minutes would have cleared up a lot of questions, but I've talked to Stan about it and I'm sure with limited production time and budget, not to mention his vast knowledge of the subject, it's hard to get it perfect. As is I'm still very thankful that he decided to share it on DVD since not all of us have the time and/or money to visit him personally. I still hope to one day, not for CTE but just for a lesson in general, he's been a great resource to me over the phone and through email and I'm very appreciative of his time.
Please guys, for once let's try to focus on the topic at hand. We are 25 pages in and still making some progress, usually the thread is complete derailed by now. PJ is being quite civil and seems like he's trying to understand some things more fully, but the same 5 - 6 people keep jumping in here and just sniping and taking up space. Would be interesting to get all of the offenders in a room and hash things out in person instead of everyone hiding behind their keyboards and bashing away...
Scott
I do the same thing mohrt, start with the CTEL and then shift as necessary to focus in on the secondary line. I too believe that the purpose of the CTEL is to avoid perception errors and provide a consistent approach to achieving the correct visual and position.
Neil, I watched the DVD initially last year with much anticipation, especially after meeting Stan the previous year and discussing the system briefly, as well as all of the conversation here on the forum. I stopped watching it half way through not once, but twice, out of frustration. Now my questions were quickly cleared up by people here and Stan himself, but it was not crystal clear on the DVD, especially to someone like me who is very analytical and precise.
I agree, once you "get it", all the material is there. There are just a few key concepts that are there but not explained more fully, and some discussion of the progression of which aim lines and pivots to use to bring it all together would have been nice. I think an extra 5 - 10 minutes would have cleared up a lot of questions, but I've talked to Stan about it and I'm sure with limited production time and budget, not to mention his vast knowledge of the subject, it's hard to get it perfect. As is I'm still very thankful that he decided to share it on DVD since not all of us have the time and/or money to visit him personally. I still hope to one day, not for CTE but just for a lesson in general, he's been a great resource to me over the phone and through email and I'm very appreciative of his time.
Please guys, for once let's try to focus on the topic at hand. We are 25 pages in and still making some progress, usually the thread is complete derailed by now. PJ is being quite civil and seems like he's trying to understand some things more fully, but the same 5 - 6 people keep jumping in here and just sniping and taking up space. Would be interesting to get all of the offenders in a room and hash things out in person instead of everyone hiding behind their keyboards and bashing away...
Scott
Yes please! This thread has helped pull back a layer or two, but I still have a long ways to go!
Lou,
Thank you for being a noncombatant in this particular thread and I apologize if my post appeared to be an attempt to incite you into any arguments.... I knee jerked to what I perceived as a trolling attack and an attempt to turn this thread into a flame fest like the others that came before it by SJwhatever.....
I'll make an attempt to actually meet you if you make it to Tunica... It was on my todo list at Derby but I spent that week running around like my hair was on fire and my ASS was catching LOL.......
Chris
Sometimes, after all the acrimony, it's just not worth it to go meet someone. It's not fear. It's principle.
Also just saying you will be somewhere is not an invitation to meet. If you really want to meet and you know who you want to meet then reach out to them.
Also just saying you will be somewhere is not an invitation to meet. If you really want to meet and you know who you want to meet then reach out to them.
Why shouldn't he say something like that - is educated speculation about CTE taboo? I don't see anything in Dave's comments that could be taken as an attack. He has a lot to contribute to an open discussion about systems like CTE.
That's how you see yourself doing it. An "outsider's" perspective might reveal something new and useful - give it a chance.
This might be a difference for CTE users, but not necessarily for everybody. Lots of people find other techniques better for themselves. Insisting CTE is "the best" is no better than insisting it "doesn't work" - unless your purpose is to stop conversation and argue.
pj
chgo
if we keep this civil and we all get along, Stan will come i believe and really try and help out. :thumbup: He must be looked at as the instructor and not as the seller...my opinion
there are also a lot of lurkers following us looking for our help in these threads!
there are also a lot of lurkers following us looking for our help in these threads!
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I am not guessing. I wrote it that way because it seems like "CTE" means very different things to different people. Based on the most common versions of CTE (including Stan's version), it seems like some (if not many) users would shift their head/eye alignment slightly during the focus change from the CTE line to the OB reference line. It also seems likely that most people would shift their body (hips) and head slightly during any "mechanical pivot" (after bridge-hand placement) to arrive at center ball, especially with the larger-pivot versions.
It sounds like you are not doing these things. If people observed you aligning, aiming, and shooting, they might think you weren't using "CTE" at all. They might just think you are aiming and shooting naturally and instinctively (based on countless hours of successful practice and experience), with a consistent pre-shot routine, as most good pool players do.
Regards,
Dave
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Sure, Sean. You quoted him, so I could see it -- it’s like you want to incite. But since you quoted him, I will address his “valid" points directly to him. I’d appreciate it if you stayed out of the middle in the future.
Joey,
I have zero interest in whether you respond to any of my posts. If what I write bothers you, you may want to consider putting me on “Ignore.” That way, except for when someone quotes me, you won't see what I write. Truly, I have had you on ignore for months. I’m sure if Mike or Jerry wanted to access my account, they could see this is so, not only for you, but several others. I would further challenge you or anyone else to find one of my posts that would prove otherwise.
I also want to point out that, by and large, the only ad hominem attacks between us have been from you: “creep, naysayer, stalker, troll, hijacker, etc.” Now you can’t stomach me.
Here in this thread I responded to folks trying to match us up saying it wasn’t going to happen. In another thread I spoke of my trip to New Orleans and the fact that your name came up repeatedly. If someone from the group came to St. Louis, I would expect at least the possibility that my name would come up, especially if they went to my home room. And, at BB, I was struck by and have made passing mention of how different the Joey they portrayed was, from the Joey you portray yourself as being here. (Trust me, I have not spilled the beans on a fraction of what they told me about you.)
Very recently I said that I was looking forward to my trip to New Orleans and as numerous people at Buffalo Billiards can verify, I repeatedly expressed to all the folks talking to me about you, how disappointed I was that you didn’t find time to stop by and at least say hello and have a beer, even if you couldn’t or didn’t want to play some.
Joey, you and I go back a long time now, probably over 15 year dating back to RSB. In spite of the fact that you have gotten mad at me several times recently, including bailing on the US Open 1pocket dinner I organized last year over some perceived but non-existent slight, I have always personally liked you, held you in high regard as a person and player, and thought warmly of you. It is too bad that nowadays you cannot separate what happens on the internet from real life.
Don't bother responding. I'm not going to see it. Really.
Lou Figueroa
Chris, no problemo, we're good.
I'm looking forward to meeting you at Tunica. First beer is on me.
Lou Figueroa
Well Pj, in my opinion he is just guessing and trying to make cte sound like you have all this movement after you get down on the shot, and that is just not the case. He is more than welcome to contribute but posting links for the hundredth time is not necessarily contributing to our current progression.
If I didn't listen to outsider's I would have never learned all this stuff, I have an open mind - I give a lot of things a chance, to the point i even try them on an actual pool table.
I never said cte is "the best". I have no purpose here except to try to help people get a better understanding of things concerning cte.
So any more questions or topics of discussion to get us back on track?
No problem, Lou, I will definitely stay out of the middle for the future. I didn't want to be there in the first place, but at the same time, I saw what I thought was wrong, and commented on it specifically for the purpose of getting it addressed. And you did just that. Mission accomplished. No inciting, no ass-biting, nothing.
-Sean <-- gets really miffed at the stupid little games that goes on in these aiming threads, but hey, it's a forum
Banks
Banned
I just want to see this get back on track. I've still got about 4 months on my wait to see how CTE works for somebody.
People seem to still be a little confused(or maybe that's me?) about the different ways in which CTE/Pro1 is performed. There was some mention(maybe only by PJ? I can't remember) about people moving either eyes, head or whatnot.
Perhaps this should be broken down from start to finish? Is a perception of a line close enough? Is there something more mathematical to it that isn't immediately recognized?
Just tossing things out there to get this constructive dialogue moving once more.
As with pool, so be it with this topic.. play well, fair and have fun. :thumbup:
ha, sounds like your going to cry! you made your own bed, now sleep in it! you toss digs at people and then say you have them on ignore and you continually do it! your like a little girl. i also dont care how good of a pool player you are or how good people say you are, that doesn't give you a free pass to act like a douche bag all the time!
You have tried your best and have done pretty much everything to discredit and disrupt any thread containing a cte discussion for a couple years that i have seen and still doing it today! You trashed the dvd, the system and may have even effected sales of the dvd and Stans personal life negatively and that's just from what i have seen on this board! Now i guess your new? because the internet is "REAL LIFE" and people come to this site looking for helpful information. Its not a toy like you treat it. The internet is "REAL LIFE" and has been for a long time now!
this thread is moving a long decently and we are all seeing it and trying to keep it that way and this douche has to come in as usual? WTF?
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On topic, yea, that's not going to happen... I'm sure when I check at work on Monday we'll be on page 35 or 40 and there might be a few good responses I'll have to look for in between all the crap...
For me, I know CTE has helped my game, ball pocketing specifically. I could never have played like I do now with so few hours a week and just have confidence over shots. The old me was always feeling my way into a shot, and without constant play I would lose that feel. Sure, maybe I'm using some feel with CTE as well, I'm open minded on that point since I can't prove it mathematically, but it feels more precise and discrete, and it's that feeling that gets me to the correct aim line every time and gives me the confidence to make the shot.
As for your question, I really didn't spend much time worrying about the specifics of which eye was looking at what, or how I picked up the lines, etc. I think I just naturally let it happen, and if I needed to lean my head, shift my eyes slightly, etc. that's what I did. I guess when I started getting feedback that I was performing the steps the right way and the balls were going in I was satisfied. I've showed this method to several people now in person and they have all been able to "see" it as well.
The hard part for me in the beginning was not having something concrete to aim at. Instead of lining up the cue ball to some point on the object ball, you are told to line up two lines, which on paper at least seem like they would be converging or diverging and not parallel, especially given the relative size of the balls in a 3d perspective.
However, I've come to realize (hopefully correctly) that I just start everything from the CTE line, shift/lean/etc as needed to pick up the necessary aim point, then move forward along that line/plane/etc and pivot. Starting from the CTE line allows you to gain the correct perspective on the secondary aim line, and you can still more or less see the CTEL in your vision when looking at the secondary line. The eventual aim point - or line, tunnel, plane, etc., however you want to look at it - is not a defined point, it changes for every shot, but the steps needed to find it are the same within a given range of angles.
Scott
Banks
Banned
On topic, yea, that's not going to happen... I'm sure when I check at work on Monday we'll be on page 35 or 40 and there might be a few good responses I'll have to look for in between all the crap...
For me, I know CTE has helped my game, ball pocketing specifically. I could never have played like I do now with so few hours a week and just have confidence over shots. The old me was always feeling my way into a shot, and without constant play I would lose that feel. Sure, maybe I'm using some feel with CTE as well, I'm open minded on that point since I can't prove it mathematically, but it feels more precise and discrete, and it's that feeling that gets me to the correct aim line every time and gives me the confidence to make the shot.
I know what you mean. I rarely log in on the weekends, so I get to see the same thing in terms of extended posts.
I'm virtually self-taught in most ways, so what I do is from experience, watching other players and from picking up little things from here and some basic information from Mosconi's little book(s). One thing that did help, however, was walking into the angle/shot and that has helped see the shot a bit better as what we think we see from one angle is not always how things are(99% of cuts into the side I take a second glance at to reference the distance a ball is in front of or behind the pocket).
As far as the thread goes, I think it has generally been a good discussion. PJ has gone directly after the answer to "what makes CTE work?", but in order to get there, many of the smaller questions need to be addressed. I've heard good players discuss its use, so obviously there's something to it. The question many people have, though, is what exactly is it and how does it perform the way it's suppose to without having some kind of mathematical basis that they are aware of or are unable to explain. I believe many people have moved from "can it work?" to "how exactly?". Since the mechanics of individuals(from size, technique, shooting style, etc) vary so widely, as do the table conditions, the "how" is what people seem to be most polarized over. Adding to that is the fact that many people do things differently, including learning, so there are many disconnects along the way. Hopefully this gets some of that information into the open so that all may sleep well. :thumbup: After all, just imagine all of the time/energy that's been spent on this..
Have a good weekend, Scott.
-John
Another post with Lou telling Joey how much he personally likes him and then goes on to say how "some people told him" that Joey this and that. Give me a break. Joey ixna'd dinner probably because he couldn't break bread with someone who made him puke. Also prob the same reason why Joey didn't wanna play him.
Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk
Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk
Back to the the original thread on aiming at fractions. This is more at how I percieve how CTE or fractional aiming can be changed to a thinner or thicker cut angle than the those that are achieved by aiming at 1/8, A, B or C. I and some others here hold that aiming at any of these points will result in discrete cut angles.
In order to change that discrete cut angle to one that is thinner or thicker, one can shift his dominant eye/s to the side of the original position by tilting or moving the head and eye/s to the desired side to achieve a new line that can be adjusted to by moving the cue, bridge and stance to a new location.
The pivot the tip of the cue to the center of the CB and adjust the head and eye/s and stance to the pivot - stroke and shoot.
I am traveling so I can't diagram this in Acad so I can only offer these Powerpoint cartoons.
This though may help some with this visual adjustment.
:thumbup:
In order to change that discrete cut angle to one that is thinner or thicker, one can shift his dominant eye/s to the side of the original position by tilting or moving the head and eye/s to the desired side to achieve a new line that can be adjusted to by moving the cue, bridge and stance to a new location.
The pivot the tip of the cue to the center of the CB and adjust the head and eye/s and stance to the pivot - stroke and shoot.
I am traveling so I can't diagram this in Acad so I can only offer these Powerpoint cartoons.
This though may help some with this visual adjustment.
:thumbup:
Here is a plot of the cut angle you get versus the fullness of hit. For example, a fullness of 0.5 -- an exact half-ball hit -- gives a cut angle of 30 degrees. (This ignores throw which can be several degrees depending on speed, spin, cut angle and ball conditions, but that is mostly a separate issue.)
A couple of other fullnesses to note are 3/4 full which gives an angle slightly under 15 degrees and 1/4 full which produces about a 48-degree cut.
![CropperCapture[7].png](https://forums.azbilliards.com/data/attachments/164/164407-1ae3b9f29c5a9e36057ab4ce338e1da9.jpg "CropperCapture[7].png")
A larger version of this is available at http://www.sfbilliards.com/fract.pdf as a PDF.
A couple of other fullnesses to note are 3/4 full which gives an angle slightly under 15 degrees and 1/4 full which produces about a 48-degree cut.
A larger version of this is available at http://www.sfbilliards.com/fract.pdf as a PDF.