Not a fan of "Low deflection" shaft...help me understand !!!

Well obviously LD shafts don't Make the game too easy.....if easier at all , which is clearly debatable.

So you missed that one.

There's no reason to believe a maple shaft increases any risk at all.

So that's two.

Tons of people have obviously had tremendous success with both and even with the monumental push towards laminated shafts (mind you not all lams are LD) by virtually every major manufacturer and many smaller builders, both still firmly hold their place on the market. Therefore performance and/ or results show no favor for either.

So that's 3.

So basically your left with feel.

So .....uh......yea.

With a little hype and marketing thrown in for good flavor..

There, now you got it.

wrong... invalid comparison...

The Chinchilla said:

Well, in this case "better" can actually be defined. A better scope for example in a shooting range may be more accurate, a lesser one you'd have to compensate more. Which one is "better...." the one you have to compensate less with. Does that mean a guy can't be the "best" with an "inferior" scope? NO. It just means he overcame his competition in that one area where there is a possibility to gain a slight advantage. But yes, cue "hit" is subjective.... so better isn't necessarily better... but i still think the above argument holds a lot of water, at least when it comes to deflection.

Click to expand...

A more valid comparison would be comparing a scope with mil dot reticles versus one with just cross hairs. The one with cross hairs has slightly more accurate optics as you get away from center, but with no additional equipment, the dot mil reticle sight will offer better long distance shooting accuracy due to the ability to judge distance to the target more accurately.

It is the same having a dot mil reticle as what BHE affords you with a standard shaft.

Sure, you may not have to compensate as much for visual distortions with a more accurate lens, but you'll put the bullets on target much easier with a dot mil, unless you have a spotter scope for distancing or a laser range finder; unfortunately for us, there is no equivalent to a laser range finder for adjusting for squirt with an LD shaft, so you are either forced to use a longer bridge, adjust manually by feel and experience (not a bad thing, just not as accurate, especially when you get in a funk). or use a standard shaft with a balance point that is closer to a typical bridge position.

Jaden

You're not getting the reasons right...

8onthebreak said:

So in summation, if I understand posts...
The reasons why players elect to play with standard shafts are:
1. Feel and hit YEs
2. LD shafts make shots too easyNo
3. For some That's what they've always played with Yes, for some
4. Some Don't like hollow feel Biggest reason I've run into for people that don't like them.
5. Some Prefer the challenge of estimating the deflection and don't mind the risk trade off. No, well maybe some, but I don't know any
6. Some believe that players think too much about equipment. Sort of, it is more the indian than the arrow.

Did I miss any reasons?

I think that what is interesting is that nobody refutes that a standard shaft adds more risk than an LD shaft...more risk (over time) means more mistakes, so I'm left wondering...if trading FEEL for RESULTS is worth it?

Click to expand...

Ok...

Jaden

Went back and forth

I shot with maple shafts for 20 years then went 100% Predator and loved them.

Then I bought a Nitti, Southwest & Dayton to experiment with and have not picked up a Predator since.

Love the Southwest but I seem to play better with a heavier shaft and when I put a 4oz shaft on my heavier Southwest butt it gets too heavy overall. Nitti's cues are a dream as are Dayton's.

I finally settled in happily with a Nitti butt and Dayton old growth shaft.

Interesting to me is that I can't say the LD helped or hurt, at the end of the day I like the look, feel and sound of my current set up and I like the fact that it is a one off made by real craftsman here in the US.

I still break with a BK2 shaft on a Nitti sneaky pete because I believe at warp speed the LD hides the sins from an off center hit on the cue ball.

I also like Miller Lite and chocolate ice cream... Doesn't mean I think they are better, just what I like which in my opinion ought to be the benchmark for choosing a cue. Shoot with what you like and understand different folks like different things.

The weakest part of my game is me, not my cue.

donny mills said:

The maple shaft that I've been playing with for 10 years has a messed up ferrule. I had a blind guy put tips on for years (lepro) and the beginning of the ferrule is 12.7 and the end of it is 12.0. You guys were talking about tip deflection etc. What do you think this does? I feel like it's a perfect imperfection considering I'm just not as accurate with other shafts.

Could that change deflection?

Click to expand...

Yes. A smaller ferrule is lighter, since the ferrule plastic is typically heavier than Maple and other woods. This reduces the endmass of the shaft and reduces squirt (i.e., you will have slightly less CB deflection). This is one of several methods used by cue makers to reduce squirt (see endmass for other techniques used, and for more info).

Regards,
Dave

Jaden said:

deflection, or squirt as a better term is all about the end mass in the shaft. Well actually it's a combination of stiffness of the shaft along with end mass.

Click to expand...

Shaft stiffness does have an indirect effect on endmass and squirt, but weight in the 4-6 inches closest to the tip is the most important factor determining the amount of squirt (CB deflection) a shaft creates. For more info and video demonstrations, see:

Regards,
Dave

Here's a demonstration of BHE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_sn8ZTntTE

The above is a demonstration of the shot that led me to ask Efren how he adjusts for English and a description and demonstration of some of the benefits of using BHE...

Jaden

I just use a 12.5 mm pro tapered Joss shaft Ivory ferrul with a wizard med or moori med. I made it work for me what I feel it comes down to is how straght you are really stroking the CB. If I need to hit the ball with left or right English I get down on that shot on what ever side of the ball and that's where I start stroking and that's where my follow thru stroke goes.

Sorry if I went a little off subject but again this is what works for me .


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I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=37.907708,127.082052
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Well, it's pretty simple. Most of these LD shaft manufacturers claim that their products have 30% less squirt than tradition shafts, or even more. If squirt was the only thing that needed to adjusted for when using side spin, then it seems reasonable to think that using a LD shaft would improve my ball pocketing by a commensurate amount. But it doesn't, so that tells me that there is more than one variable in the equation that needs to be compensated for.

Jaden said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_sn8ZTntTE

The above is a demonstration of the shot that led me to ask Efren how he adjusts for English and a description and demonstration of some of the benefits of using BHE...

Jaden

Click to expand...

Thanks a lot for the demonstration. I'm the same way I can't make a ball either if I'm talking through it.

To the OP:

It seems to me that you missed the real reason why many good players do not like LD shafts.

FEEL. I do not like LD shafts because they simply do not impart the type of hit that I like. They do not feel solid, and I do not like the feedback profile they offer.

I played with a Predator shaft for over two years, and it did not increase my pocketing ability at all. Most good players are going to be able to compensate for a solid maple shaft simply because they play so much. So if the hit of the cue is off due to an LD shaft, goodbye shaft. The feel of my cue is of the utmost importance to me. I spent a lot of time searching for that super hit my cue gives me. I think that is a perfectly good reason to forego the slight advantage an LD shaft may offer. Especially since I know that if I just drag my lazy ass to the hall or bar a bit more and practice, the whole argument becomes moot anyway.

Braden

Feel....

Hmmmm, that's just crazy talk.

Allow me to relate the story of how I came to use BHE...

8onthebreak said:

Think you missed the post..
FEEL WAS LISTED AS #1 reason in my summation

I get that. And good point about dragging your ass to a pool hall more often to help with better estimating the deflection.

There's where we shift...you are talking to a guy that depends almost completely on systems and foundation while playing since my job and family do not afford me the time one would need to put in to play off of instinct.

I play only 2 hours a week. So I must use systems and discipline to continue to play at a competitive level.

I'm not knocking FEEL, heck I didn't buy a mike bender just cause it looks pretty...BTW it looks pretty.

I realize I've sacrificed the hit from that cue when I screwed the pred shaft on. it does take some time to adjust to the hit.

But I will tell you this, when you are used to an LD shaft and you pick up a regular cue, you realize just how noticeable the deflection is.

I do respect folks opinion while I personally differ in my own opinion.

Too each their own I guess.

Click to expand...

I've talked about how Efren showed me BHE originally back in 99, I didn't say (this time around at least) that I didn't start using it until 2002.

When Alex translated what Efren was saying about how he was compensating I went to the adjacent table that I was practicing on and thought about it.

You know what I thought???

"He's full of $hit..."

That's what I thought. I acknowledged that he was probably one of the best players to ever pick up a cue, but I thought he was full of shit and HAD to be compensating in some way... I thought, it's impossible that it would just happen to compensate just the right amount for all of those shots.

Fast Forward three years...

I'm talking with my buddy Chip Klein, you may have heard of him, he was runner up in the Florida Open a few years back...

He starts talking about Back Hand English... I say, hey Efren taught that to me three years ago, but I thought it was impossible so I haven't bothered to even try it.

Chip says, no it really works..

Now you have to understand something about Chip, he is an analyst type of player. He analyzes everything...

He used to go around to the pro tourneys and keep stats on what the pros did. He told me that pros only average winning about 47% of the time they break and that giving up the breaks is not a big spot.

Now the person that wins the tourney and is breaking good and playing their top level probably averages better than that, but for a given tourney they average winning about 47% of the time.

But after that I tried it...

It wasn't until a few years later that I even found out about the pivot point. My cues pivot point just happened to coincide with my average bridge length.

Joey A thought that it didn't work, but when I told him to shoot a shot with it, he cinched it with a ton of side spin.

It's not for everyone, but just try it.

Here's the advice I would give for anyone considering trying it.

1) Stroke straight through the CB even though it's going to look funny to you at first.

2) Let the weight of the cue do the work, don't try to force the cue through the CB.

3) If you're primarily a feel player, then you have to use an aiming system, like ghostball, or parallel lines to line up the contact points, don't rely on your feel because you're used to automatically adjusting for english.

Or at the least, don't think about the fact that you're about to use sidespin on the shot as you line up for it.

4) fourth and finally, keep your cue as level as possible to reduce swerve. Lower and raise your bridge to put draw and follow, Do NOT use the back hand to apply follow and draw, use a lowered or elevated bridge.


So try this for a few hours and see how it works for you, I bet you'll be surprised...

Jaden

Omar said:

Well, it's pretty simple. Most of these LD shaft manufacturers claim that their products have 30% less squirt than tradition shafts, or even more. If squirt was the only thing that needed to adjusted for when using side spin, then it seems reasonable to think that using a LD shaft would improve my ball pocketing by a commensurate amount. But it doesn't, so that tells me that there is more than one variable in the equation that needs to be compensated for.

Click to expand...

To test that, youd have to have a clone of yourself that played all your life with a LD shaft, and one that played with a normal shaft and see the differences.

The way it is now, only one of you, you have been "programmed" playing with a normal shaft. There is no way to tease the effects that shaft had on you out.

I dont think you can say "commensurate" either. Most balls are missed because of stroke errors, or taking your eye off the ball etc... not really because of deflection, although that is one aspect (especially on long shots). These LD shafts simply give you a higher degree of accuracy with respect to that one aspect (ie deflection); they aren't a cure all of course.

8onthebreak said:

Think you missed the post..
FEEL WAS LISTED AS #1 reason in my summation

I get that. And good point about dragging your ass to a pool hall more often to help with better estimating the deflection.

There's where we shift...you are talking to a guy that depends almost completely on systems and foundation while playing since my job and family do not afford me the time one would need to put in to play off of instinct.

I play only 2 hours a week. So I must use systems and discipline to continue to play at a competitive level.

I'm not knocking FEEL, heck I didn't buy a mike bender just cause it looks pretty...BTW it looks pretty.

I realize I've sacrificed the hit from that cue when I screwed the pred shaft on. it does take some time to adjust to the hit.

But I will tell you this, when you are used to an LD shaft and you pick up a regular cue, you realize just how noticeable the deflection is.

I do respect folks opinion while I personally differ in my own opinion.

Too each their own I guess.

Click to expand...

No one , at least not myself , debates the different deflection characterists between shafts.

Here's what I debate....

First and foremost, that a LD shaft is LD. There is no industry standard for deflection and almost everyone today claims to be offering a LD shaft. LD by whose specification? How many people "think' they have a LD shaft but have absolutely NO idea how LD it is or if it is even at all? Does anyone? (I'm sure some have an idea )

Second, partly based on #1, that all LD shafts have less deflection than all 'standard' shafts. I know for a fact this it false. I own easily a dozen "LD" shafts from at least 3 manufactureres and probably 40-50 standard maple shafts, I know of quite a few that contradict this common assumption.

And I guess lastly, that the amount of correction is directly tied to "accuracy". There are many other 'corrections' required when applying english beyond just CB deflection. Whether or not one can apply these corrections properly and consistantly is not the defining line that governs "accuracy". Its quite possible that the additional end mass provided in a maple shaft may actually offer a tighter dispersion rate of applied deflection when factored in over the entire range of possible shots at varying distances, ranges of applied shooting force given the multitude of combinations of these factors coupled with intended english/draw/follow/etc.

To be clear, these are my opinions and are not meant to impune any other.

Jaden said:

... He used to go around to the pro tourneys and keep stats on what the pros did. He told me that pros only average winning about 47% of the time they break and that giving up the breaks is not a big spot.

Now the person that wins the tourney and is breaking good and playing their top level probably averages better than that, but for a given tourney they average winning about 47% of the time. ...

Click to expand...

Jaden -- Sorry to divert this thread a bit longer, but I thought you might not be aware of the more recent data on breaking results that I have been posting for the past 10 months for matches streamed by Accu-Stats, Inside Pool, and TAR.

I've posted results for about a half dozen different tournaments plus the recent Shane/Earl TAR match. Some of the events were 9-ball, some were 10-ball. Conditions and rules varied. And the streamed matches tend to be the better players. But in terms of the percentage of games won by the breaker, the results have ranged from a low of 48% to a high of 58%. I haven't calculated the overall percentage for all these events combined, but it's probably in the low to mid 50's.

If this interests you any more, here are the threads for the details:

For me it comes down to personal prefference. I know folks that would play with nothing else, and others that really don't care for them. In my mind, it all comes down to "it's the Indian, not the arrow". If you like em, use em. If you don't, don't. I use the same butt and same shaft all the time so I know how it plays and hits.

The Chinchilla said:

Most balls are missed because of stroke errors, or taking your eye off the ball etc... not really because of deflection, although that is one aspect (especially on long shots). These LD shafts simply give you a higher degree of accuracy with respect to that one aspect (ie deflection); they aren't a cure all of course.

Click to expand...

Sorry Chinchilla, most shots missed because some people do not account for the CB condition when it contacts the OB; say a stun shot for spot shot, for sure many players know you need to allow for throw if you did not use english; but not many players know that that stun has to be maintained until contact point is reached, other wise CB roles on you just before it hits OB and will not throw as anticipated and you miss the shot; similarly you decide to put just enough english with stun to offset throw so you aim a little thick of pocket, here again if CB roles on you, english will not have much effect when roling as much as stun, let alone if CB did not curve on you, so apply this to all shots and that is 80% why we miss (if you are say C or B player or above)