14.1 Stats -- John Schmidt's Run of 434 on Video, December 2018

[ChrisinNC]

I just started watching this run and something looks odd to me right off the bat. Does anybody else think the cue ball is wobbling way to much just as it comes to a stop? Look at the cue ball come to rest after this shot. It literally stops moving and then rolls again one last time. Bulging measle?

https://youtu.be/lf9hRHdA0A8?t=70

Edit: The more I watch the more convinced I am that this cue ball has problems. I'm surprised that John didn't notice it. Here's a shot where the cue ball stops and then rolls backwards:

https://youtu.be/lf9hRHdA0A8?t=558

If you look at the object balls roll after a break shot they mostly come to a stop normally, but I will say that here and there you will also see an object ball stop with a wobble. I'm very familiar with normal movements like that due to the cloth or whatever, but the cue ball wobbles seem excessive to me.

Wow, that's very strange. Both those locations in which the cue ball moved again were not directly over the slate seams, and in both instances when the cue ball stopped rolling initially, the measle dots were aligned with a dot directly on top of the ball, which means there was a dot on the very bottom of the ball where it contacts the cloth. It's just extremely hard for me to believe John would have put all this effort in to these runs and attempting to break Mosconi's record, and didn't bother to use a new cue ball. I'm guessing that issue with the cue ball had something to do with the strange curve his cue ball took in the final shot which scratched.

 

[dr_dave]

We can guess....

I think it was not a small piece of chalk as commented at the time. Those usually cause an abrupt turn at low speed. The cue ball looks like it's curving for a long time.

I did not notice the cue ball doing funny things on other shots. It is possible for a ball to be that out of round, but the problem will show up fairly frequently.

It is also possible that there is an unevenness in the slate. Sometimes slate can develop ridges and valleys if it starts to delaminate. Or, maybe the slate was broken with a crack along the path of the cue ball and the repair was not perfect.

Here is an expanded video of the scratch: https://youtu.be/xBb6Bp496oQ

It looks to me like he has a lot of right side spin on the shot. It also looks like the measle ball is spinning on one of the measles towards the end. If the measle is slightly bulging, the ball can effectively be egg-shaped. A problem like this can only happen when there is enough side spin to keep the bulge on the cloth.

Another possible explanation is ball turn. Theoretically (per TP B.2), a ball rolling with right spin does have a tendency to turn to the right. The effect is usually negligible; but with a ridiculous amount of sidespin, the effect can be "noticeable" (especially if there is any dirt or cloth/slate irregularities on the table).

I will try to record and post a video if I can duplicate the effect. If so, I'll post a link here.

Regards,
Dave

 

[lfigueroa]

No. He marked it with a cube of chalk to remove a hair. Then replaced it.

In the whole run, unless I missed something:
-The object balls were never cleaned.
-The CB was BIH once (he left it in the rack). I don't recall him even wiping it on his shirt on that BIH situation.
-The CB location was marked by the racker right around 420 balls, when they changed the camera card. John took a bathroom break, and asked the racker to clean the CB. Racker cleaned with his gloves it looks like, and restored the CB. The racker used a cube of chalk to mark the CB.
-A few balls after that, John himself marked the CB with the chalk to get the aforementioned hair off.

So the CB was off of the bed of the cloth a total of 3 times, and of those 3, cleaned twice.

I don't see anything wrong with that. IMO:grin-square:

I guess I just thought that if a professional player is going to go after one of the most famous and cherished records in the sport he'd try and adhere to its most basic rules and conventions.

Nowhere, that I am familiar with, can a player just pick up the CB mid-run, casually mark its position with a cube of chalk, and continue *particularly* when he has a guy right there with gloves on and whom he could have easily asked to perform whatever CB cleaning he felt was necessary. But apparently, picking up the CB mid-run is OK with a number of folks here, though others have expressed doubts about it to the point of starting a separate thread on the subject.

So here's my suggestion: the next time you're playing a big APA league match, or playing in the DCC, or playing a money match, just stop and pick up the CB mid-run and see what kind of reaction you get from your opponent. Better yet: the next time you're playing king of the hill 8ball in a bar somewhere (you know, with quarters stacked up along the rail), try picking up the CB mid-run, marking its position with a cube of chalk, and then continuing on your merry way.

I suggest that because I believe that even the lowest troglodyte amongst the entire universe of pool players knows that that is fundamentally wrong and you will be lucky if they don't rule on your CB cleaning with a cue butt upside your noggin.

Carry on.

Lou Figueroa

 

[iusedtoberich]

I guess I just thought that if a professional player is going to go after one of the most famous and cherished records in the sport he'd try and adhere to its most basic rules and conventions.

Nowhere, that I am familiar with, can a player just pick up the CB mid-run, casually mark its position with a cube of chalk, and continue *particularly* when he has a guy right there with gloves on and whom he could have easily asked to perform whatever CB cleaning he felt was necessary. But apparently, picking up the CB mid-run is OK with a number of folks here, though others have expressed doubts about it to the point of starting a separate thread on the subject.

So here's my suggestion: the next time you're playing a big APA league match, or playing in the DCC, or playing a money match, just stop and pick up the CB mid-run and see what kind of reaction you get from your opponent. Better yet: the next time you're playing king of the hill 8ball in a bar somewhere (you know, with quarters stacked up along the rail), try picking up the CB mid-run, marking its position with a cube of chalk, and then continuing on your merry way.

I suggest that because I believe that even the lowest troglodyte amongst the entire universe of pool players knows that that is fundamentally wrong and you will be lucky if they don't rule on your CB cleaning with a cue butt upside your noggin.

Carry on.

Lou Figueroa

-I appreciate your viewpoint. I agree the racker should have done it, and should have used a proper ball marker considering the possibly of a historic event.

-As far as players doing this in competitions, I have seen it on streams and/or in person (sorry its all blending together), where the players would simply put their hand on the table with the CB in the crotch of the thumb and first finger, pick up the CB, wipe it off, and replace on the table. These were the top pros in the last year or two. The matches escape me now, but probably someone will remember these instances as well. Now, I don't think that is really proper. But IMO, what John did is way better. At least he marked the balls with the edge of the chalk cube instead of his hand.

-The way you phrased your prior post, made it seem to someone who had not watched the video that John simply picked up the CB willy-nilly without marking it, wiped it on his ass, and then threw it back on the table wherever he chose.

-This was clearly a practice run [edit, as was Mosconi's IMO]. The racker was even giving John advice on what to shoot at times. Who would be John's opponent to object to cleaning the ball (even with a proper marker)? Us?

 

[lfigueroa]

-I appreciate your viewpoint. I agree the racker should have done it, and should have used a proper ball marker considering the possibly of a historic event.

-As far as players doing this in competitions, I have seen it on streams and/or in person (sorry its all blending together), where the players would simply put their hand on the table with the CB in the crotch of the thumb and first finger, pick up the CB, wipe it off, and replace on the table. These were the top pros in the last year or two. The matches escape me now, but probably someone will remember these instances as well. Now, I don't think that is really proper. But IMO, what John did is way better. At least he marked the balls with the edge of the chalk cube instead of his hand.

-The way you phrased your prior post, made it seem to someone who had not watched the video that John simply picked up the CB willy-nilly without marking it, wiped it on his ass, and then threw it back on the table wherever he chose.

-This was clearly a practice run [edit, as was Mosconi's IMO]. The racker was even giving John advice on what to shoot at times. Who would be John's opponent to object to cleaning the ball (even with a proper marker)? Us?

Perhaps.

I just feel that if you are not bothered at some base, elemental, primordial, primitive level at the sight of a pro pool player going after "the record" picking up the CB mid-run; if some little microscopic neuron way down deep in your pool playing hippocampus didn't immediately fire an alarm; if when watching the video you didn't momentarily stop, spit up your Bud Light and mouthful of Doritos and softly say to yourself, "WFT?"... well, maybe there's chromosome damage

Lou Figueroa

 

[Bob Jewett]

... I will try to record and post a video if I can duplicate the effect. If so, I'll post a link here....

I am waiting with bait on my breath for a measurement. In the meantime, I'll try to find you a cue ball with a bulging dot.

If my bulge theory works, I think it says that the ball might roll in a circle under the right conditions. Certainly balls are seen wobbling when spinning in place, which is kind of rolling in a circle.

 

[alphadog]

I guess I just thought that if a professional player is going to go after one of the most famous and cherished records in the sport he'd try and adhere to its most basic rules and conventions.

Nowhere, that I am familiar with, can a player just pick up the CB mid-run, casually mark its position with a cube of chalk, and continue *particularly* when he has a guy right there with gloves on and whom he could have easily asked to perform whatever CB cleaning he felt was necessary. But apparently, picking up the CB mid-run is OK with a number of folks here, though others have expressed doubts about it to the point of starting a separate thread on the subject.

So here's my suggestion: the next time you're playing a big APA league match, or playing in the DCC, or playing a money match, just stop and pick up the CB mid-run and see what kind of reaction you get from your opponent. Better yet: the next time you're playing king of the hill 8ball in a bar somewhere (you know, with quarters stacked up along the rail), try picking up the CB mid-run, marking its position with a cube of chalk, and then continuing on your merry way.

I suggest that because I believe that even the lowest troglodyte amongst the entire universe of pool players knows that that is fundamentally wrong and you will be lucky if they don't rule on your CB cleaning with a cue butt upside your noggin.

Carry on.

Lou Figueroa

You reap what you sew.
Most guys I play would never question marking the cueball and picking it up to clean it.

 

[jviss]

with bait on my breath

Have you been eating sushi?

 

[Bob Jewett]

Have you been eating sushi?

No, but things have been slow at the pier and it's lunch time.

 

[lfigueroa]

You reap what you sew.
Most guys I play would never question marking the cueball and picking it up to clean it.

Guess I'm lucky I don't sew.

Perhaps it's just different parts of the world but in the part I live in there would be major flailing and gnashing of teeth if a player tried doing it himself. Mid-run -- playing for dough, or in a tournament, or league -- a more proper protocol would be to have your opponent or a neutral party do it. At a minimum you'd ask permission first. So if you don't have an opponent, what's the big deal with asking the guy with the gloves on to do it, especially if you're going after a big time record that you've brought in special equipment for and are recording and want to keep "according to Hoyle."

Lou Figueroa
occasionally reaps
what he sows

 

[HawaiianEye]

Playing regular games, the only time the cue ball should be touched is between games, after a scratch, or if it has jumped the table.

If you are playing 14.1, it may be necessary to clean the cue ball once in a while since the length of a run could go on for numerous racks or there may be numerous shots and racks before a scratch is made.

 

[alphadog]

Guess I'm lucky I don't sew.

Perhaps it's just different parts of the world but in the part I live in there would be major flailing and gnashing of teeth if a player tried doing it himself. Mid-run -- playing for dough, or in a tournament, or league -- a more proper protocol would be to have your opponent or a neutral party do it. At a minimum you'd ask permission first. So if you don't have an opponent, what's the big deal with asking the guy with the gloves on to do it, especially if you're going after a big time record that you've brought in special equipment for and are recording and want to keep "according to Hoyle."

Lou Figueroa
occasionally reaps
what he sows

Agha I understand eieio.

 

[BeiberLvr]

Guess I'm lucky I don't sew.

Perhaps it's just different parts of the world but in the part I live in there would be major flailing and gnashing of teeth if a player tried doing it himself. Mid-run -- playing for dough, or in a tournament, or league -- a more proper protocol would be to have your opponent or a neutral party do it. At a minimum you'd ask permission first. So if you don't have an opponent, what's the big deal with asking the guy with the gloves on to do it, especially if you're going after a big time record that you've brought in special equipment for and are recording and want to keep "according to Hoyle."

Lou Figueroa
occasionally reaps
what he sows

You could just admit you don't like John

 

[lfigueroa]

Agha I understand eieio.

I just think that if he's going after "the record" he should dot the i's and cross the t's.

No one is asking him to attempt the run in a coat and tie, as Mosconi did. He wants to wear shorts and sneakers, fine. He wants to wail away at the record attempt over, and over, and over, and over again (unlike Mosconi who did it on a single attempt), fine. He wants to set up a perfect environment, equipment, and scenario for himself rather than walk in and play on what he finds, fine.

But don't pick up the CB.

Personally, I thought it was ironic that not only did the scratch happen after he picked up the CB, it was also after he took the triangle away from the guy with the white gloves -- who had just racked the balls -- and re-racked them for himself.

And what is the point anyway of having a rack guy with gloves on if you're going to re-rack them yourself when the mood (or some other motivation) strikes you?

Lou Figueroa

 

[JoeyInCali]

I can only imagine how good JS would have been if he played in several hundreds of straight-pool tournament or exhibitions.
Same goes for Hohmann, Alex , Dennis, Appleton and Souquet.
Unfortunately, it's not the game of choice for decades already.

 

[lfigueroa]

I can only imagine how good JS would have been if he played in several hundreds of straight-pool tournament or exhibitions.
Same goes for Hohmann, Alex , Dennis, Appleton and Souquet.
Unfortunately, it's not the game of choice for decades already.

I agree with this to a certain extent and champions are champions regardless of the era.

However, on another level, I think the 14.1 giants of the past had a deeper understanding of the game, and in particular, knowledge of the rack, than players today. So Hohmann draws into the stack to get a good spread, not get stuck, and avoid scratches.

The champions of old had such deep knowledge of the rack they did not need to do that.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Dan White]

I agree with this to a certain extent and champions are champions regardless of the era.

However, on another level, I think the 14.1 giants of the past had a deeper understanding of the game, and in particular, knowledge of the rack, than players today. So Hohmann draws into the stack to get a good spread, not get stuck, and avoid scratches.

The champions of old had such deep knowledge of the rack they did not need to do that.

... and sometimes cause scratches. I wonder how often the guys you speak of scratched on the break.

 

[miha]

I just started watching this run and something looks odd to me right off the bat. Does anybody else think the cue ball is wobbling way to much just as it comes to a stop? Look at the cue ball come to rest after this shot. It literally stops moving and then rolls again one last time. Bulging measle?

We had a couple of older measled cueballs at the hall and they all came to a stop just like that. Turns out the measled spots are made from a different material which wears out faster! The cueballs had a bad case of flatspotitis. I believe there have been a couple of threads here regarding flat spots on measled cueballs.

 

[Chip Roberson]

Another possible explanation is ball turn. Theoretically (per TP B.2), a ball rolling with right spin does have a tendency to turn to the right. The effect is usually negligible; but with a ridiculous amount of sidespin, the effect can be "noticeable" (especially if there is any dirt or cloth/slate irregularities on the table).

I will try to record and post a video if I can duplicate the effect. If so, I'll post a link here.

Regards,
Dave

As I watched the slow motion of the scratch, what it seems is, he used a touch of inside bottom. As the cue ball came back up table from the collision with the object ball and opening up the rack, the cue ball was, for the want of a better word , skidding. As the skid of the cube ball was diminished, the inside English came to take over as the cue ball started to reach the bottom rail of the table, then the ball took the turn for the pocket and made it's dive.
As for the video,,Greatest piece of work ever displayed going towards the record,,if I wore a hat, my hat would be off for him Superb is an understatement.

 

[lfigueroa]

... and sometimes cause scratches. I wonder how often the guys you speak of scratched on the break.

Don't know.

Over several appearances I watched Mosconi run well over 400 balls. I don't recall a scratch off the break. And in trying to think of some of the old video -- like the Crane v Balsis, and the Mosconi v Caras -- I can't recall any scratches either but could be wrong on that.

Lou Figueroa