2012 US Open One Pocket

[lfigueroa]

I only see 16 guys signed up so far for the US One Pocket Open, about a month away, on the CSI site. What's wid that?!

Also, is the draw going to be done again this year, out of sight of the players? I asked this over on the one pocket.org site, twice, without answer:

#####
Over on AZ there is currently a discussion going on about how the 9ball Open is going to be seeded this year. JAM said that in past years, seeding was done behind closed doors. (Personally, I think that's pretty appalling, but not surprising.)

As I've said on several occasions I think a tournament draw should be totally transparent. So, given that discussion, as well as the one here on sponsorship for the 1Pocket Open, I want to re-ask a question I posed several months ago about the draw at the US Open 1Pocket event, but went unanswered:

I would like to talk about the draw and why it is done in advance, out of sight of the players.

At the glacier-like pace of 30 seconds per player, you could do this in front of everyone, perhaps at the players meeting, in half an hour.

I'm sure everyone would be happy to wait -- the suspense would be cool.
#####

Mark is on record as saying the 1pocket event is not seeded. So I think that makes my question even more intriguing.

Mark....

Sunny...

Holly...

Buhler...

Buhler...

Lou Figueroa

 

[Mark Griffin]

2012 us open one pocket

Hi Lou,

This is a busy time of the year for us. I did not see your questions on onepocket.org.

None of our events are seeded - so that takes care of that.

All of our events are done on CTS system. This is a computerized system and we do the draws in advance - because we have over 30 events that start basically at the same time. And it takes several days just to print the charts.

I don't like to think of 'doing it behind closed doors' but most of the events are done by the computer guy - who lives in Kentucky.

We are in a different situation than most events.

However, I will check with Bret (our top IT guy) and see if he has a better solution. I agree with transparency- but we can not do manual draws because then we have to take the time to put the order of the names in manually. That is how errors (like spelling etc) can occur.

Not sure if having someone present when the 'button' is pushed would satisfy anything.

One of our main issues is trying to treat all the events the same. We cannot wait until the last minute for any of our events - to much can go wrong and just a simple thing like having the plotter available to print the charts could now become a big problem.

Let me ask a few questions and see what the best answer is.

I apologize for not answering earlier - I strongly suggest contacting me ( or my office) directly so we can answer any questions. We don't duck proper questions - but we just never knew about the question or the concerns.

BTW - the entries should start picking up. I hope it is a good field. The event will occur no matter what. Since the world 10-ball was postponed, it will allow several more of the top international players to attend.

IF the field ends up poorly attended, we will address that in future years planning. When we move to the Rio in 2013, we will have space for more tables to possibly allow more 'matching up'.

Mark Griffin
Markg@playcsipool.com
702-719-7665. Office

 

[ironman]

Hi Lou,

This is a busy time of the year for us. I did not see your questions on onepocket.org.

None of our events are seeded - so that takes care of that.

All of our events are done on CTS system. This is a computerized system and we do the draws in advance - because we have over 30 events that start basically at the same time. And it takes several days just to print the charts.

I don't like to think of 'doing it behind closed doors' but most of the events are done by the computer guy - who lives in Kentucky.

We are in a different situation than most events.

However, I will check with Bret (our top IT guy) and see if he has a better solution. I agree with transparency- but we can not do manual draws because then we have to take the time to put the order of the names in manually. That is how errors (like spelling etc) can occur.

Not sure if having someone present when the 'button' is pushed would satisfy anything.

One of our main issues is trying to treat all the events the same. We cannot wait until the last minute for any of our events - to much can go wrong and just a simple thing like having the plotter available to print the charts could now become a big problem.

Let me ask a few questions and see what the best answer is.

I apologize for not answering earlier - I strongly suggest contacting me ( or my office) directly so we can answer any questions. We don't duck proper questions - but we just never knew about the question or the concerns.

BTW - the entries should start picking up. I hope it is a good field. The event will occur no matter what. Since the world 10-ball was postponed, it will allow several more of the top international players to attend.

IF the field ends up poorly attended, we will address that in future years planning. When we move to the Rio in 2013, we will have space for more tables to possibly allow more 'matching up'.

Mark Griffin
Markg@playcsipool.com
702-719-7665. Office

Sounds very direct and honest to me. Myself, I like the computer draw and taking the human element out of it.
Good luck to all!

 

[Bob Jewett]

...
However, I will check with Bret (our top IT guy) and see if he has a better solution. I agree with transparency- but we can not do manual draws because then we have to take the time to put the order of the names in manually. That is how errors (like spelling etc) can occur. ...

One way to do a transparent computer draw is to do 46 separate draws numbered 1-46 and post the resulting charts where everyone can see them. Then the next Friday the MegaMillions MegaNumber tells everyone which one of the 46 draws will be used. I don't think there's really any problem, but then I don't expect to finish in the money.

 

[lfigueroa]

Hi Lou,

This is a busy time of the year for us. I did not see your questions on onepocket.org.

None of our events are seeded - so that takes care of that.

All of our events are done on CTS system. This is a computerized system and we do the draws in advance - because we have over 30 events that start basically at the same time. And it takes several days just to print the charts.

I don't like to think of 'doing it behind closed doors' but most of the events are done by the computer guy - who lives in Kentucky.

We are in a different situation than most events.

However, I will check with Bret (our top IT guy) and see if he has a better solution. I agree with transparency- but we can not do manual draws because then we have to take the time to put the order of the names in manually. That is how errors (like spelling etc) can occur.

Not sure if having someone present when the 'button' is pushed would satisfy anything.

One of our main issues is trying to treat all the events the same. We cannot wait until the last minute for any of our events - to much can go wrong and just a simple thing like having the plotter available to print the charts could now become a big problem.

Let me ask a few questions and see what the best answer is.

I apologize for not answering earlier - I strongly suggest contacting me ( or my office) directly so we can answer any questions. We don't duck proper questions - but we just never knew about the question or the concerns.

BTW - the entries should start picking up. I hope it is a good field. The event will occur no matter what. Since the world 10-ball was postponed, it will allow several more of the top international players to attend.

IF the field ends up poorly attended, we will address that in future years planning. When we move to the Rio in 2013, we will have space for more tables to possibly allow more 'matching up'.

Mark Griffin
Markg@playcsipool.com
702-719-7665. Office

Thanks for the info, Mark. I and a few other guys suspected that that was the answer. I guess the traditionalists among us don't like the draw coming out of a "black box" and were hoping a "glass bowl" drawing could be done at the player's meeting. I agree there would be little value added to having someone around to see a button pushed.

One additional question: will you go to races to four, vice three, on the loser's side this year?

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

One way to do a transparent computer draw is to do 46 separate draws numbered 1-46 and post the resulting charts where everyone can see them. Then the next Friday the MegaMillions MegaNumber tells everyone which one of the 46 draws will be used. I don't think there's really any problem, but then I don't expect to finish in the money.

Bob, I saw your name on the list and did a double-take. Bob Jewett playing one hole -- who knew

Lou Figueroa

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I don't know why you would need the lottery to determine the seeding of a CSI event. Their CTS system is an advanced bracket and tournament management system that picks random seeds. The players are picked from a processor's random number generator, rand(), and then placed into available slots in order.

To say you need the lottery or "to take the human element" out of it is implying that CSI goes in and edits the CTS results after an event is drawn. Mark has gone FAR beyond any other tournament director in history to develop the most fair automated tournament system ever (even texts your phone when your match is called). They're not hand-seeding players.

Give me a break..."the lottery"

 

[JAM]

...Over on AZ there is currently a discussion going on about how the 9ball Open is going to be seeded this year. JAM said that in past years, seeding was done behind closed doors. (Personally, I think that's pretty appalling, but not surprising.)...

I guess I will have to mosey on over to Onepocket.org forum to check out the discussion.

For clarification's sake, what happened at the 2004 U.S. Open in regards to seeding is what I am referring to. I will never, never, never forget it.

Traditionally, those who made the upper brackets of the U.S. Open got a bye the next year. Keith came in third place in 2003, so he was going to get a bye in the 2004 U.S. Open. Keith, like Earl, was always an independent and wasn't a member of the dictatorship organization known as the UPA, so for him to get a bye for coming in third place the previous year, it was kind of cool.

Apparently, AFTER the charts were drawn, with the byes in place, an unnamed senior pool player protested that senior players who competed in a one-time senior tournament should get a bye. He was adamant about it, and the tournament organizers granted his wish, REMOVING Keith's name from getting a bye and giving it to a senior player who competed in one senior tournament that year.

It was horrifying. :shocked2::shocked2::shocked2:

When the news was shared with me, I was totally pissed off. How can you give somebody a bye and then take it back?! Keith, on the other hand, accepted it graciously, as he always does, but I went through a range of emotions from shock to anger to hurt. :indecisive:

At the time, we were writing articles for InsidePOOL and had a business and friend relationship with Sally and J.R. I was venting with Sally about what had occurred, as we were sitting outside in the U.S. Open smoker's lounge. :angry:

Meanwhile, Ronnie Wiseman heard me telling Sally. He did not know we had a business *and* friend relationship. After I went back inside, Ronnie admonished me for "speaking to the press" about what had happened. In fact, at that time, Ronnie said he thought there should be no seeding at the Open and they should just throw all the names in a hat and let the players play whoever they draw. :smile:

I was angry about Keith losing his bye to a senior player who got a bye for competing in one senior tournament -- that he didn't even win, BTW; just competed in it -- but I was really hurt that Ronnie Wiseman was upset with me. As I was wont to do during this era of my life, I cried. I couldn't contain the waterworks. Here I was sitting in the conference center trying to hold back my tears, and but they wouldn't stop. Everybody kept coming up to me, "What's wrong? What's wrong?"

And to add insult to injury, this tournament in 2004, Keith pulled Ryan McCreesh, our friend and pool partner in action games from back home the very first round. And they put it on the TV table. Poor Keith had made a commitment to not consume alcohol at this event, at my request, and he shot horribly.

Talk about a compound fracture -- (1) losing a bye that he should have gotten, (2) having to play the first round on the TV table against our friend who was in dead punch, and (3) shooting pool sober as a judge, a frame of mind that was most definitely unfamiliar to Keith at that time. :embarrassed2:

Anyway, the bye situation affected me then much differently than it would today. In the words of Rhett Butler, frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn anymore. Professional pool is nothing more than a rich man's high. Don't get me wrong, though. I totally respect the title of the U.S. Open 9-Ball Champion with all its prestige, and I appreciate the Behrmans keeping this tradition going at much personal expense.

Things are handled differently today at the U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship as far as seeding, thank goodness. Just wanted to add this for clarification to the thread!

 

[Jerry Forsyth]

The events I have attended where the draw is done "behind closed doors" make certain that there are independent witnesses to the draw. Usually press members. I have been a witness many times. There is also always at least one player present.

The reason a large event does not do it with players present is that it slows down the process way too much. No matter how much you tell the players that they cannot ask questions or interfere until the draw is done there are always scores of them who will grab one of those involved in doing the draw, tell him they have to go to dinner and then to bed and ask the official to find if their name has been drawn and if so what time they play. This stops the process and slows it to a crawl. I know many of you will come up with solutions to this. We have come up with them before and none of them work. The only way to do the draw of a large event quickly is to make certain the interruptions do not come.

One solution I have seen is to rope off a large area where the players cannot get close to the draw. But this is exactly the same as doing it behind closed doors. The players cannot see anything at all.

Promoters in America have no reason to rig the draw. And as long as they use independent witnesses no weirdness can occur anyway. Our game has much bigger problems than how the draws are done.

Stop looking for conspiracies and start looking for sponsors. The lack of a draw system you agree with will not kill the game. Lack of sponsors will.

 

[JAM]

I can see the pros and cons of seeding, but I think a player who is going to spend money to attend a week-long event, missing work if they are employed, spending at least $1,000 on up to $3,000, depending on how they situate themselves while competing, they are entitled to understand the rules of the draw.

If there is no transparency, it lends an atmosphere of favoritism to any pool tournament that does not enforce rules that are equal to all.

Like the time the European players were given a bye to attend the U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship, not having to be at the mandatory players meeting on Sunday, incurring all the expenses like the rest of us schmucks, and arriving Tuesday. Why? Because they were competing in a Euro event, so the promoters gave them a bye and allowed them to waltz in when it was convenient, all rested on Tuesday afternoon.

 

[watchez]

Mark - you should send Justin to Kentucky so he can stream the draw. Oh and we need to sit down in Vega$ so I can help you straighten out the team event structure for the BCAPL.

I don't think any pool event these days should be seeded. There is no tour. There is no proper way to seed the event. There is no history to base the seeding. Who is to say who should/should not be the higher seed? Based on what criteria? Until you have a minimum of 8 sanctioned events a year, it is ludicrious to even fathom that an event should be seeded. Seeding it is the far extreme of fairness based on the pool world today. What is the US Open going to do if Wu decides to come and play this year? Not seed him but give Charlie Williams a bye?

JAM - besides having a history of prestige, the US Open has a history (and a future) of issues.

 

[lfigueroa]

The events I have attended where the draw is done "behind closed doors" make certain that there are independent witnesses to the draw. Usually press members. I have been a witness many times. There is also always at least one player present.

The reason a large event does not do it with players present is that it slows down the process way too much. No matter how much you tell the players that they cannot ask questions or interfere until the draw is done there are always scores of them who will grab one of those involved in doing the draw, tell him they have to go to dinner and then to bed and ask the official to find if their name has been drawn and if so what time they play. This stops the process and slows it to a crawl. I know many of you will come up with solutions to this. We have come up with them before and none of them work. The only way to do the draw of a large event quickly is to make certain the interruptions do not come.

One solution I have seen is to rope off a large area where the players cannot get close to the draw. But this is exactly the same as doing it behind closed doors. The players cannot see anything at all.

Promoters in America have no reason to rig the draw. And as long as they use independent witnesses no weirdness can occur anyway. Our game has much bigger problems than how the draws are done.

Stop looking for conspiracies and start looking for sponsors. The lack of a draw system you agree with will not kill the game. Lack of sponsors will.

I don't know that anyone believes there is any "conspiracy" when it comes to CSI events. Having said that, 64 players doesn't need a computer. And generally speaking, I have never seen a 1pocket tournament draw where people couldn't hold their water until the draw was complete. Maybe you're thinking of 9ball players

Lastly, there is a reason why lottery drawings are done on TV every night with a close up on the bouncing ping pong balls inside the glass bowl -- to eliminate even the vaguest of suspicions. Pool's got a bad history and we need to go no further than infamous book made in Vegas for Mike Lebron's run through the field at 20-1, or The Open JAM mentions, or any one of many other questionable doings we've all seen or heard about over the years.

As I said, I don't believe anyone is looking for conspiracy theories, particularly in the case of CSI. But given pool's history, transparency, from a PR point of view, is not exactly a bad thing, IMO. And, if anything is going to help gain the sport sponsorships it's going to be anything that helps overcome its sordid history by implementing standards that put all elements of the game beyond reproach.

Lou Figueroa

 

[jrhendy]

Bob, I saw your name on the list and did a double-take. Bob Jewett playing one hole -- who knew

Lou Figueroa

I am going to have to let the cat out of the bag here. Bob beat me in the one pocket tournament in Galveston. Almost never missed a long rail bank.

 

[lfigueroa]

I am going to have to let the cat out of the bag here. Bob beat me in the one pocket tournament in Galveston. Almost never missed a long rail bank.

He's like that.

Beat me like drum at 14.1 back at the West Coast ACUI championships in the early 70's.

Lou Figueroa

 

[cabilliardclub]

Sad!

It is unfortunate that the pool world has had so many flakey tournament directors. It has gotten so bad that even the legit Directors like Mark are questioned on the draw and people want witnesses to the dealings.

I just wanted to let the pool community know that there are still good Directors, promoters and room owners out there. We all have alot invested in running events, not just money but our reputations are on the line.

We as a community need to weed out the bad. Stop supporting these flakey tournaments and support the guys that are doing the right thing.

I would hope someday that there will be more trust given to tournament organizers. I think more players should volunteer to work some of the major events and see what it takes to run a successful event. I believe once you have worked behind the scenes you will have a new respect for the guys that do it every day.

Chris Swart
California Billiard Club

 

[SJDinPHX]

It is unfortunate that the pool world has had so many flakey tournament directors. It has gotten so bad that even the legit Directors like Mark are questioned on the draw and people want witnesses to the dealings.

I just wanted to let the pool community know that there are still good Directors, promoters and room owners out there. We all have alot invested in running events, not just money but our reputations are on the line.

We as a community need to weed out the bad. Stop supporting these flakey tournaments and support the guys that are doing the right thing.

I would hope someday that there will be more trust given to tournament organizers. I think more players should volunteer to work some of the major events and see what it takes to run a successful event. I believe once you have worked behind the scenes you will have a new respect for the guys that do it every day.

Chris Swart
California Billiard Club

Tap, tap, tap...Well said Chris..:thumbup:...Nobody does it fairer than you, Mark or Greg, and the prize money is always there !
I also like the idea of getting a player, or two involved, maybe particularly those who are getting a free roll.. (i.e those who are event sponsored)..Let them earn their keep, and see what a thankless task it can be, if not run properly.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I don't know why you would need the lottery to determine the seeding of a CSI event. Their CTS system is an advanced bracket and tournament management system that picks random seeds. The players are picked from a processor's random number generator, rand(), and then placed into available slots in order.

To say you need the lottery or "to take the human element" out of it is implying that CSI goes in and edits the CTS results after an event is drawn. Mark has gone FAR beyond any other tournament director in history to develop the most fair automated tournament system ever (even texts your phone when your match is called). They're not hand-seeding players.

Give me a break..."the lottery"

The point of connecting the draw to a big lottery is not to make the draw more fair. I have no doubt that the draw is perfectly fair. The problem lies with those people who suspect it might not be fair. There are lots of ignorant and paranoid people out there.

Unlike Jerry F's experience, I've seen TDs who did in fact rig things or try to. I've also seen TDs who were incapable to doing a draw with byes. I don't expect either of those to be a problem with the tournament discussed in this thread.

 

[lfigueroa]

It is unfortunate that the pool world has had so many flakey tournament directors. It has gotten so bad that even the legit Directors like Mark are questioned on the draw and people want witnesses to the dealings.

I just wanted to let the pool community know that there are still good Directors, promoters and room owners out there. We all have alot invested in running events, not just money but our reputations are on the line.

We as a community need to weed out the bad. Stop supporting these flakey tournaments and support the guys that are doing the right thing.

I would hope someday that there will be more trust given to tournament organizers. I think more players should volunteer to work some of the major events and see what it takes to run a successful event. I believe once you have worked behind the scenes you will have a new respect for the guys that do it every day.

Chris Swart
California Billiard Club

I agree that there are, as you point out, a lot of flakey TDs out there. But Mark most certainly is not one of them.

I supported Mark's event last year -- something I wouldn't have done if I didn't implicitly trust him. Because, as you also say, we shouldn't (and I don't) support bad promoters, TDs, or events that are run in a manner I don't like or feel are inappropriate.

Mark's answer was certainly straight forward enough. But I still don't like black box draws. Maybe I'm just a traditionalist. And I would feel that way if the Dali Lama hisself was running it

Lou Figueroa

 

[Holly]

The draw is completely electronic, tied into the online bracket system, hence is not only 100% non-bias but also saves precious man hours not also having to input the information back into the online system in order to populate the brackets. Doesn't it make sense to be both 100% fair, open and non-human bias as well as multi-tasking?

Sorry but the days of little paper slips and bowls for events of this size and level are and should be long gone...let technology move our industry to another level.

With the CTS, CSI is the most transparent organization out there in the sport.

 

[Holly]

By the way...gentlemen and ladies, late fees kick in for both the US Open One Pocket and the US Open 10-Ball Championships on April 9th.

If you or someone you know is planning to submit their entry form and fee(s), please have them contact me at the CSI office 702-719-7665.