A real creep

[ShootingArts]

I've never flown across the country to play a game of pool

So, Hu, do you often walk into pool rooms that have a HUGE depth of champion players and offer weight to people you don't know for decent money?

Dave,

Anywhere I walked into a place to gamble, I played anyone that wanted to play even, no questions asked. Didn't matter if I was a thousand miles from home. When folks came looking for me we played heads up, even when they admitted to being a road player. If they didn't give a name I didn't ask names or how they played, I'd find out soon enough.

However, I've never flown across the country to put my own money up to play a pool match to entertain hundreds of other people and help promote a room. Had I and then got taken by the room owner it now appears, I would have said the hell with this and never even played the match. Screw me and then I'm going to do you favors? I'd tell John we could play in another room with or without streaming or we can make it another time when we are in the same place.

The damning thing is that Jimmy knew how Grady and John had matched up and knew how Jimmy stood against John. He also knew Grady had already been through a rough day and wasn't at his best so he wasn't likely to play quite up to his best speed. It doesn't seem real bright to take off Grady as soon as he walks through the door. A good businessman would have at least waited until he was heading out the door! Sounds like a lot of poor judgment all around.

Hu

 

[ottersbro]

when you think your bigger than the game its time to quit!!!:banghead::banghead:

 

[mikeyfrost]

It's all f*cked up now!

 

[Beware_of_Dawg]

[thought to self]
read this whole thread, very entertaining in a national geographic animal kingdom kinda way... sorta reminded me of one of those shows with the alpha male life cycle. always ends sorta sad...

could be worse. Least with people you won't be driven away from the pack or killed when your time at the top of the food chain has run it's course,

[note to self]
unless of course you can't let it go and you drive yourself away.

[file in memory for future self]
Please don't ever let yourself be that guy Dawg.
[/end thought, change channel]

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

The ole rouser can stir the brown rounds with the best of 'em, can't he?

Ain't nothin but a thing (and a little one at that IMO).

 

[billychips]

I am almost at a loss for words and in utter shock that anyone can rationalize how Grady is any way, shape or form right in this situation. I don't care if Grady is a living legend, a HOF'er, or a senile old man, he is absolutely out of line. It is beyond absurd for anyone to think that just because they are a legend, that they should be able to go into any pool room, under any circumstances and hijack someone because of who they are. Whether Grady asked to gamble or practice is absolutely irrelevant. If he didnt want to gamble, a simple no would have sufficed. If he asked for the game, or the amount bet, which I am betting he did, then he got what he deserved. There is simply no way in hell that just because he is Grady freaking Matthews that anybody should just lay down and give him there money. I am positive that Grady Matthews has robbed many unsuspecting pool players over the years. If this is the way old school pool legends act, Ill just take the young guns that gamble and dont cry a river when they get beat. Just my $12 worth!

 

[wahcheck]

human frailties

I have read this thread with interest and all these things come to mind:

I do respect Grady and his accomplishments, and I like to see him posting here.
I don't always agree with his style, nor do I always agree with the bashings he elicits, although he must know he almost invites it.

Suffice to say that it's tough to get old and realize that you can't do the things you used to do just naturally.

Some things never change with human tendencies, though. In this instance, they involve 3 of the "seven deadly sins". Greed, Pride, and Anger.

I have seen the cold reality of old horses that just can't run anymore, and also the dark side of human behavior of kicking people when they're down. It is an ugly side of life that I have a hard time looking at.

Mr. Figueroa's post is one of the best of this thread; the other is Mr. Henderson's. JMHO.

 

[mikeyfrost]

I am almost at a loss for words and in utter shock that anyone can rationalize how Grady is any way, shape or form right in this situation. I don't care if Grady is a living legend, a HOF'er, or a senile old man, he is absolutely out of line. It is beyond absurd for anyone to think that just because they are a legend, that they should be able to go into any pool room, under any circumstances and hijack someone because of who they are. Whether Grady asked to gamble or practice is absolutely irrelevant. If he didnt want to gamble, a simple no would have sufficed. If he asked for the game, or the amount bet, which I am betting he did, then he got what he deserved. There is simply no way in hell that just because he is Grady freaking Matthews that anybody should just lay down and give him there money. I am positive that Grady Matthews has robbed many unsuspecting pool players over the years. If this is the way old school pool legends act, Ill just take the young guns that gamble and dont cry a river when they get beat. Just my $12 worth!

Chips that what my post was about. You know like I do the importance of knowing what you are doing especially if you are out of town. That's why in unfamiliar territory you have to have someone their handling you that's looking out for you. Ultimately his first mistake was going out of town and gun slinging. If you find yourself in a spot where you can't confirm that you are in a good game and you play a set to find out, that's gambling. If you let your pride dictate the rest of it, than it's on you.

Grady did not have to lose money in this situation. If he didn't lose money there would be no thread. Moral of the story is when you go into the Lions Den you better be the Ringmaster or know him. If you ask me he probably got off cheap cause there are several guys I can think of off the top of my head that live out there that I've met and played against that are straight gorillas, and he didn't play them.

I feel bad for Grady but not because he got mildly gafted from. I feel bad for him that he couldn't see the angles anymore and be more alert in that situation. I also feel bad that he didn't have a handler with him who knows the players. I also feel bad he's that bitter and will never go there again. I got a lot of sympathy for him and I feel especially bad that those shots he used to hit so perfect and just right in the middle of the cup are starting to rattle now.

 

[iba7467]

It's called gambling and anyone can say "No!"

Grady chose to play for money, period! I have huge respect for what Grady has done for the game. I bet on him in his match purely for this reason. No one would take Grady so I bet on it just to sweat the match, but please don't excuse someone for their actions just because of their age when they have been doing it for 20 years.

If a bank robber goes to jail for 25 years and comes out and robs another bank, he is still in the wrong and going back to jail. Grady plays no where near the speed he once played. For this I definitely feel sorry for him. That does not however give me any reason to exonerate him from any wrong doing.

In the end it's just gambling. Grady lost, even if he got hustled. No one will defend me if I walk into a room and offer a guy weight to get a game and then go off. I appreciate everyone who is coming to Grady's defense but Grady would be much better served for someone who cares about him to explain that the world he is in now is the same one he exploited 20 years ago. If his game is at the level we all watched being played, then he should recognize his new weaknesses and only play MUCH WORSE players (no offense, this is the same thing you would tell a friend who gets robbed). There should be no crying over spilled milk when you drank that milk for 35 years prior.


Edit: When I am Grady's age feel free to try to hustle me, just watch out it may be you getting hustled.

 

[Junkyarddog]

Grady has done countless things for the game. However, without the game and billiard community nobody would even know who Grady is. The game doesn't owe him anything. He should be trying to give back to the game like JA is right now. There were several references to golf and one thing that golf has that pool lacks is class. The majority of pro golfers, not all, are classy and appreciative people. Pool is unfortunately the opposite. If we had nothing but John Schmidt's and JAs and more people aspiring to not only play like them, but carry themselves as they do...pool would be held in a different light today. I've never met Grady but the below comment about himself tells me all I need to know about him. Anyone with class would not make this comment even if they believed it.

Before I continue, what place is there where players wouldn't love to practice One Pocket with Grady Mathews?

I would have been honored to practice with Grady, until I found out he felt entitled to be worshiped.

Thanks Lenny for telling your side of the story it really brings this into light. If I ever lose gambling the only person I get upset with is myself. I'm the one that put myself in the game. Nobody ever makes me play a game on my own money.

 

[BillPorter]

Well let me take some time to reply. It was a pleasure to meet Grady and I was more then happy to pick him up and take him back to the airport. Kolbys was happy to have Grady come there and for him and John to play as was I to stream it for all the one pocket fans to see.

I will tell people what I saw go down as I was there for most of it. I picked Grady up from the airport and we went to his hotel so he can get settled in, we walk over to the poolroom and I introduce him to the 2 owners and a few other people. I let Grady know his food and drinks are all comped for the time he is there as is Johns along with table time.

One of our top players is hitting balls on the action table and ask Grady to play and offers a ball, Grady remarked to me that he would rather not play a straight shooting young guy who runs a million balls. The owner does not play too often but is a good player but not as good as the player who Grady was thinking of playing who was offering the ball.

Grady Mathews is a legend, a champion, the owner is not. He did not know how Grady played and did not ask Grady to play, me and Grady talked and he was looking to either practice free or bet something, he remarked he did not play cheap. I asked the owner if he would play Grady and he remarked he would with hesitation but did not know how to play him so they were kind of at a standstill with neither knowing how the other plays. The owner is in his late 40 or earl 50s so he is not a spring chicken and not in the best of health. Grady offers 9-8 and the owner says okay and he ask Grady what he would like to play for, Grady said a race to 3 for $400, the good player who wanted to play Grady first ask Grady for $100 side bet. The owner would have played for $100 or even less, he has played me and others for $5-$10.

I got into action when the score was 1-1 in the first set so I did not see much of it other then the owner sweating profusely so I thought he might be losing or nervous. Grady is gone and I find out he has lost both sets, the first 9-8 and the second even. I heard the owner offered to give him 9-8 for the third set. I spoke with owner after when he went over to get Grady for the tournament the next day and he said Grady wrote a letter to him and was going on about Grady being very upset with him about what happened and Grady would not play in the tournament.

The owner told me he felt bad about it all and offered the money back to Grady right then and there at the hotel. He also told me they should have played even to start with instead of him getting 9-8 but Grady offered it up. It is not Gradys first rodeo and I was not in a position to steer him around considering I have no idea how Grady plays but I would have loved to just practiced with him. Grady did not have to play anyone, he set the weight and the bet, he gave 9-8 so the owner would play but if he said to play even which he never did then the owner would have played him even anyway.

Grady went off after Johns match in front of the whole room and it could even be heard on the live stream, Johns win was being overshadowed in a way by this which was wrong. Grady offered to play the owner again and said he would play for $20,000 on a neutral table and the owner replied "Heads!". I know Grady had just gotten off the plane, he was tired and on foreign land, trust me the owner was nervous playing Grady and did not know what to expect. He is willing to play Grady in a neutral room for $5000-$20000.

I feel bad about the whole situation because it really should not have been like that and the owner says he regrets even playing because of all the BS that happened because of it. He did not think anything of it really and did not think someone would be so "seething" with anger over losing 2 sets for $800, some people lose like that and are very sociable about it. I assure you the owner is not a bad guy and even San Jose Dick said that to you Grady. He did not hustle you or try to rob you at all, you made the game, you made the stakes.

That is the whole story and I hope your not mad at me Grady because I really like you and think a good deal of you and appreciate all you have done for the game. If you want that game, he says you have it for $5000-$20000. You remarked to me that you think he is a weak player, he is a good player but was never at the level you were at, he did not even play in the state championships. I think you offered 9-8 and bet accordingly believing you had soft action, if you won we would have never heard anything even if you tortured the owner. Most room owners would get tortured by you getting 9-8 but just not this one.

Well it took alot for me to write this, I really admire you Grady but perhaps you were tired and do not remember the whole deal and how it went down. People were there and saw you offer the game, you never offered to play even because you would have gotten played even. You and me even spoke and you said you preferred to play him over the young guy who played better. I wish you well Grady and know your having a tough time and a good deal going on. I have all the specs to get you going live streaming too, just shoot me your email.

Lenny,

Thanks for your detailed post, it really has the "ring of truth" and I can very easily see it going down exactly the way you described. I'm about Grady's age and can appreciate, at least a little, how he might have felt in that situation, but Grady has been through more problems than I have these past few years and it all takes its toll. I feel bad for the room owner as it seems he is taking some hits he doesn't seem to deserve.

This story is the reason that my friend Mike Haines, when he hears about the misdeeds of a player, always says, "That's pool!"
_

 

[Doug]

Grady

One solution would be to allow any former hustler over 60 to gamble for whatever amount offered and if he wins he keeps the money and if he loses he doesn't have to pay. Bret Farve is past his prime too and I hear he will only return next year if defenders who intercept his passes apologize to him for being disrespectful to his legacy.

 

[jrhendy]

I honestly hadn't given any consideration to everyone knowing John's speed compared to Jimmy's. This does put things in an uglier light. Sure Grady made an error in judgment after a long rough day. I'm a lot younger than Grady and I still pick my times to do battle carefully. However, it does seem very likely that Jimmy and a handful of the people there knew Grady was getting into a ridiculous game if what you are saying is accurate. It looks very short-sighted to kill the golden goose and foul up the whole event when Grady steps through the door looking at things from this perspective. It also sounds like the people present weren't making any effort to match up fairly with Grady but to rob him if they could.

I really hope much of what you said in your post isn't true, particularly concerning Jimmy's speed compared to John's and Jimmy's speed in general. It will greatly sadden me if it is.

Hu

This was my 2nd trip to Kolby's. Jimmy was sick my first trip but I heard he could play. As far as being in the top 5 in Arizona, I doubt it. They have quite a few good players. I was told by a friend it would be a tough game for me. That usually doesn't stop me if I want to play and think I have any chance.

If Grady would have asked me, I would have told him I had heard Jimmy would be a tough game for me. He didn't ask and if they don't, I keep my nose out of their game, just as I believe you would.

I expected a tougher game, and as Grady stated, he just was not himself. I think I actually played a little better in the tournament than I did in our match, but at my age, lack of consistency shows up quite often.

I hope all of us have quite a few years of pool left in us.

 

[billychips]

One solution would be to allow any former hustler over 60 to gamble for whatever amount offered and if he wins he keeps the money and if he loses he doesn't have to pay. Bret Farve is past his prime too and I hear he will only return next year if defenders who intercept his passes apologize to him for being disrespectful to his legacy.

This is a great analogy. The nerve of these people to beat on a legend like Grady. How dare they? When I first read this post, I had to check my calendar. I thought it might be April 1st and Grady was playing a joke on all of us.

 

[houmatroy]

Older hall of famers do have a sense of entitlement !

One solution would be to allow any former hustler over 60 to gamble for whatever amount offered and if he wins he keeps the money and if he loses he doesn't have to pay. Bret Farve is past his prime too and I hear he will only return next year if defenders who intercept his passes apologize to him for being disrespectful to his legacy.

I still Gave Ronnie Allen a c-note years ago when he was in Houma..When he told me I'm a former world champion..Don't make me beg....I felt bad for him & had just won $7000 on a Arm wrestling match I set up so I let him bite me just for who he was & his former accomplishments

 

[JoeyA]

I still Gave Ronnie Allen a c-note years ago when he was in Houma..When he told me I'm a former world champion..Don't make me beg....I felt bad for him & had just won $7000 on a Arm wrestling match I set up so I let him bite me just for who he was & his former accomplishments

The $7,000 win had the most to do with that.

Oh, did I ever tell you about me being the world's best pinball player? No sheet, ask anyone from Jackson, MS. That ought to be worth a $10 bite! :yeah:

Pinball Joey

 

[TxSkin]

The worst thing about this forum is the regular justification for brutal actions due to some code of the jungle or pool culture.

No where in the civilized world would you invite an elderly gentlemen of some historic note into your house for an event that you promoted as a big time deal and allow him to be humiliated and busted in like the first couple hours he's there. (and by the owner of the house no less!)

I don't care if he's cranky and has done some questionable things in his past. He's a 67-year-old man in mediocre health. I hope your grandfather doesn't accidently walk into Kolby's some day and say the wrong thing and people happily take his money.

I know Lenny to be a fine young man with nothing but the best intentions. But he to gets caught up in this pool culture too where no matter what you do don't knock somebody's action or intervene when a brutal act is about to happen. That's just how it is. He asked for it.

To say well we didn't know how Grady plays, etc., is not valid.

There aren't five people in the State of Arizona that can play Jimmy even. Everyone at Kolby's has seen John Henderson play and knows he can't stand up to Jimmy or anywhere close now. I'm sure he could when he was young. Jimmy is an experienced, big-time gambler. Grady had no chance.

There were people in Kolbys that had the the power/ability to say to Jimmy and or Grady hey let's wait on this. You're/he's our guest. You got a big event tomorrow. You just got off the plane. Let's just hit some balls around. Jimmy you're probably way better than Grady so let's just cool it for now. In a civiliezed world that's what would have happened. Anybody running a big time event would have known to protect their guest of honor and dissuaded him from participating in a blow out.

But that's the pool culture I guess.

So it's horrible what Grady said after the fact? I guess when you get older you'll undertstand that when elderly people get humiliated in public they lash out. Actually almost everyone does whether it's justifiable or not.

If Grady comes off the road looking for action that's one thing. But if he's there as your guest you owe him some respect and responsibility.

So did Grady deserve what he got because he's some sort of bad guy? I say no. And shame on those who do.

You perspective is worth thinking about. Well stated.

TxSkin

 

[houmatroy]

The $7,000 win had the most to do with that.

Oh, did I ever tell you about me being the world's best pinball player? No sheet, ask anyone from Jackson, MS. That ought to be worth a $10 bite! :yeah:

Pinball Joey

The $7000 probally did have a lil to do with it but I did have Ronnie hanging around trying to get him a game with Dalton in da wheelchair..But a lil had to do with Ronnie being a Old school,ex world champion & not having any money...Cliff has tried to bite me several times & I've never gave in even after making some decent scores around him...The respect for the elders thing is probally the main reason if I had to think about it.

dammit Joey...U didn't have to tell me u wuz a world champ pinball player cuz I don't know any right off hand...Now I'm gonna have to try & locate me 1 & go try ya...lol:thumbup:

 

[billychips]

I called Delta and was told that I could carry my cue onto the plane. TSA told me I couldn't as I was going through security. Luckily, I had a suitcase just big enough to wedge my case into it, after removing some clothing. Off to Atlanta, where there was a three hour layover plus another two hour delay and when finally in the air three hours of turbulance, where noone was allowed to even use the bathroom. Finally I arrive in Phoenix. I'm picked up by Lennie, who takes me to my motel.
OK, I've been up 18 hours. I'm tired and grumpy. All I want to do is go to the pool room and practice an hour and go to bed.I enter the pool room and there are three guys I don't know around what is obviously the action table. I ask would anybody like to practice? Before I continue, what place is there where players wouldn't love to practice One Pocket with Grady Mathews?
They pointedly ignore me and I get hustled by some young guy to play for money. I state again that I'd really just like to practice. Again my desire is ignored. The owner gets introduced to me. He doesn't want to practice either. Now remember I just travelled 2,000 miles at my own expense to patronize his place.
These guys won't say how they play or whether they're good players. I don't want to play for money then but the owner keeps harping on playing me but he doesn't offer to play even. Finally, exasperated and tired of this I give him a ball. He beats me worse than I've ever been beaten in my pro career, to the tune of $1,000. I only win one game.
Since I opened my place in Colorado in April of 1975, as a room owner or host pro somewhere EVERY time I made a game with a visiting dignitary or pro one of two things happened: 1. If I played good the match was close and 2. If I played poorly I would lose.
What NEVER happened, not once is that I robbed the visitor. And if I were robbing the guy I'd stop the game immediately and give the man his money back.
This Gomer Pyle Junior Samples acting creep ruined my trip and he should be ashamed of himself but he's not and as you may have gathered already he's found a way to blame me.
There were some attendees at my and John Henderson's match that should have had the decency and chutzpa to tell this guy that's he's way out of line.
Honestly, I thought I'd seen the limit with sleaziness and low-class but this guy breaks the record.

I just reread this post for the 4th time and each and every time it amazes me more and more.

 

[Koop]

I can see both sides of this one but I am taking Lou's advice. This entire thread is sad, really.