African American pool pros

Craig Fales said:
My theory is the perception that blacks see themselves as still oppressed in this day and age...this is what I'm talking about...the opportunity to make it playing pool is the same for blacks as it is for anybody else...what about all those Philipinos that battled their way to success at pool...did they come from wealth? I'd place a big bet that there are a ton of nonblacks that would love to afford to go on the road and play in tounaments...

Origanally bespoken be VIProfessor:
Finally where do you get your charges of "incompitence" (LOL) from? We have been speaking about the fact that there aren't many African Americans who play tournament pool professionally. No one here has yet had the temerity or colossal gall to suggest that it doesn't have a ton of brothers that can PLAY! If that is what you are suggesting, PLEASE get some money up and we'll help you to rid yourself of that notion.

If you're suggesting I said there are no good black players I'm implying quite the contrary...there ARE alot of strong black players that can play at top 5 pro player levels...



Now if those money players would enter tournaments once in a while they would see the opportunity the same as any other player...

To compare the situation of African-American poolplayers to the Phillipines is ill-considered at best. Talk about apples and oranges! Pool is practically the national sport of the Phillipines, and the players that participate in tournaments are, for the most part, sponsored by large Filipino business interests that benefit financially from the association because of the huge market that identifies with Filipino pool players. Where does such a situation exist in the United States, let alone for African-American poolplayers?

Please be advised, however, that examination of pool in the Phillipines only erodes your argument and strengthens Mr. Lucky's. The fact is that for every Filipino player that we know about, there are hundreds of highly skilled players who are limited to money games because they don't have the financial means to obtain the visas and other particulars required to travel to the tournaments.

Furthermore, the fact is that socio-economic conditions in the Phillipines are such that even scuffling as a money player is a financially and socially acceptable option compared to unemployment and grinding poverty, much as it was in the U.S. in the early part of the last century. This is most certainly not the case in contemporary America. Any skilled and intelligent young person growing up in the U.S. today, black or white, is almost unanimously cautioned by family and friends that playing pool is a dead end street.

Ironically, I suspect that this pressure is often greater in African-American families. For Black parents that have been part of and witness to the monumental struggle to obtain even the remote semblance of a level playing field, the notion that their youngster, who has been making good grades, etc., would want to "waste his life" to play pool professionally is as abhorrent as the Devil himself. "You want to be a WHAT??!! You've got to be out of your damned mind! Our people haven't struggled all these years only so you could go and waste your life knocking balls around a table. And it doesn't even pay enough to support a family! If you go ahead with this foolishness you'll be nothing more than an embarrassment to the race! What a waste--and he was such a bright child!" (I can assure you that these are actual comments made by real African-American parents)



Finally, this will be my last response to your posts. I've decided to follow the advice in Mr. Lucky's signature.
 
Craig you have your ideas and kind of like the smokers on their post none of us here on this site or your reading about Black Pool HISTORY will change any of that !

I respect your right to your "opinion" but I having been personally involved and around one of the greatest black Pool Players and seeing his treatment and struggles to break into the legit money games and circles ! reject your statements and thoughts that seem to imply that for some still unknown reason Black Players just do not want to or are afraid to enter these tournaments and championships !!!! in fact I find your statements so beyond being with merit that they are utterly ludicrous (ie: amusing or laughable through obvious absurdity, incongruity, exaggeration, or eccentricity) ;-) to any thinking, knowledgeable person.
 
MrLucky said:
Craig you have your ideas and kind of like the smokers on their post none of us here on this site or your reading about Black Pool HISTORY will change any of that !

I respect your right to your "opinion" but I having been personally involved and around one of the greatest black Pool Players and seeing his treatment and struggles to break into the legit money games and circles ! reject your statements and thoughts that seem to imply that for some still unknown reason Black Players just do not want to or are afraid to enter these tournaments and championships !!!! in fact I find your statements so beyond being with merit that they are utterly ludicrous (ie: amusing or laughable through obvious absurdity, incongruity, exaggeration, or eccentricity) ;-) to any thinking, knowledgeable person.
You keep going back to the 'then'...I'm talking about the here and now...if ANYBODY wants to play pool for a living the opportunity is there...this will be my last post on the subject as I have cues that need building...
 
Cuedog said:
Below is the photo I spoke of earlier. The scan did not pick it all up. This is only about 2/3 of the photo. There are more players to the left of what you see.

If anyone recognizes any of these gentlemen, I would be very grateful to know names. Thanks.

Gene

WillieMosconiBlackPoolHall.jpg

The guy next to Mosconi holding a cue was probably his opponent in the exhibition match. He looks like a young Cannonball, and he was a lefty. The era would be about right. Circa late 40's or early 50's Cannonball would have been in his 20's or early 30's.
 
VIProfessor said:
To follow up quickly on my previous post and on the importance of pool culture and tradition in the development of young players, consider the fact that despite the fact that pool is now part of the information age, it is still extremely rare to see a champion or top player emerge without exposure to and association with top players. Like ESPN's "What's the link", you can look at the history of most top players and find mentorship and association links that lead straight back to a branch of the great American pool tradition. In my own little example, much of my earlier development came about under the tutelage of Bob Lisciotti, first cousin and early competitor to his World Champion cousin Larry. After returning to the Virgin Islands, a definite pool backwater, my game remained pretty much the same until being exposed to the larger pool world again and spending time with the likes of Spanish Pete (who was practice partner to Ginky, who learned much from George Mikulas (sp?), etc.). If we talk about REAL players, the sport is full of examples. Rodney Morris coming up under Hawaiian Brian, Johnny Archer traveling with Jay Swanson, Nick Varner coming up under Hubert Cokes, and so on. The point is that for most of the great black players, their immediate role models were not tournament players, but money players, and thus it is natural to expect that many would follow in that path.

This guy knows what he is talking about. I would include Keith under Ronnie. And what about Tang Hoa under Jay Helfert. Ha Ha, that's a good one.
 
Thanks Jay. I think you may be on to something.

As far as this thread is concerned, it pleases me to see that a subject that tends to be as sensitive as this one is, can be discussed with dignity. Although there has been a splash of name calling, and personal criticism, for the most part, 95% of it has been on point and riddled with heartfelt perceptions and factual, backed up information. No malice intended in other words.

Great job fellas.

Gene
 
I also am done with this...

Craig Fales said:
You keep going back to the 'then'...I'm talking about the here and now...if ANYBODY wants to play pool for a living the opportunity is there...this will be my last post on the subject as I have cues that need building...
I just suggest that you go back and read my original statements! and you will see what you are missing about NOW! :D
Peace !
MrLucky / Phil
 
Seven ball, corner pocket. If Bola Sete had chosen cue stick over guitar there�s little doubt he would have brought similar agility and acumen to the game of billiards. Luckily for listeners across the globe he chose the latter instrument as his means of expression. Particulars on Sete�s colorful career are recounted elsewhere�his Bohemian youth spent in Rio as well as his place at the ground floor of the bossa nova explosion and his narrow miss at beating the team of Getz and Gilberto with an American debut of the form.


Fantasy couples two albums on this recent compilation gathering material from three sessions. The umbrella title could easily pass for a Martin Denny or Les Baxter platter, but rest assured the music here is firmly ensconced in light and eminently listenable '60s samba sound. The first ten tracks, originally issued as The Incomparable Bola Sete , intersperse tunes recorded in San Francisco and L.A. On the former the acoustic guitarist hooks up with studio percussionist Johnny Rae. Each man overdubs an extra element to the music (Sete shoulders bass guitar and Rae weaves in a second rhythmic line) and the end result is a surprisingly smooth fusion of snaking beats and lilting chords. The second session weds Sete�s strings to a solid if slightly checkered West Coast jazz team for another clutch of light and airy bossas. Paul Horn�s flute is a bit anemic in spots, but Budwig�s athletic bass lines compensate and a nimble solo on �Waltz of the City� boosts the tune�s stock considerably. Nick Martinez�s traps are competent if largely unremarkable despite some delicate brush play.


The final nine tunes come from Autentico! ; roll the calendar forward sixteen months. They find Sete fronting a fresh working trio with countrymen Neto and Paulinho on bass and percussion respectively. The liners describe the pair as minor legends in Brazilian music and their supple support of Sete�s filigree picking and strumming substantiates the claim. Continuity in personnel between tracks and the tight affinity the three men audibly share makes for more a more cohesive listening experience. Sete draws on the surroundings to flavor his fretwork with clever and subtle deviations in rhythm and melody, even switching to amplified strings for a few numbers like the boogaloo-driven �Baion Blues.� This music is ideal for summer veranda listening, well-iced mojito in hand with bright-sun beaming down over a coastal ocean view. And to keep the pool analogy rolling, consider this particular ball a sure sink with plenty of natural English.

Track listing: Bolido/ Lamento de Negro/ Influ�ncia do Jazz/ Voodoo Village/ Sarav�/ Be-Bossa/ Waltz of the City/ Just Another Love/ The Girl From Lodi/ Original Joe�s/ Brejeiro/ Consola�o/ Quindim de Yaya/ Soul Samba/ Baion Blues/ Pau de Arara/ Coisa/ Odeon/ Mulher Rendeira.

Personnel: Bola Sete- guitar, bass guitar; Johnny Rae- percussion; Paul Horn- flute; Monty Budwig- bass; Nick Martinez- drums; Sebasti�o Neto- bass; Paulinho- percussion. Recorded: November 12 & December 16, 1964 and May 3, 1966.
 

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Craig Fales said:
You keep going back to the 'then'...I'm talking about the here and now...if ANYBODY wants to play pool for a living the opportunity is there...this will be my last post on the subject as I have cues that need building...


a tree doesn't grow without roots. our present state is a result of history

without parents and grandparents exposing people to things there's little exposer to it. little to no exposer = little to no interest
 
Very well put...

poolplayer2093 said:
a tree doesn't grow without roots. our present state is a result of history

without parents and grandparents exposing people to things there's little exposer to it. little to no exposer = little to no interest
The converse also sadly holds true from some of these (not many thankly but a couple :( ) The roots of bias and lack of understanding also grow deep !
When one has been told while they are formulating their attitudes and beliefs that a group of people are lower, lazier and / or not quite up to standards :( As an adult you tend to find it hard to repel these false and dangerous notions!

Over all though I am happy to say this post has been a learning experience for me and I hope a few others! :)
 
TX Poolnut said:
Seven ball, corner pocket. If Bola Sete had chosen cue stick over guitar there?s little doubt he would have brought similar agility and acumen to the game of billiards. Luckily for listeners across the globe he chose the latter instrument as his means of expression. Particulars on Sete?s colorful career are recounted elsewhere?his Bohemian youth spent in Rio as well as his place at the ground floor of the bossa nova explosion and his narrow miss at beating the team of Getz and Gilberto with an American debut of the form.


Fantasy couples two albums on this recent compilation gathering material from three sessions. The umbrella title could easily pass for a Martin Denny or Les Baxter platter, but rest assured the music here is firmly ensconced in light and eminently listenable '60s samba sound. The first ten tracks, originally issued as The Incomparable Bola Sete , intersperse tunes recorded in San Francisco and L.A. On the former the acoustic guitarist hooks up with studio percussionist Johnny Rae. Each man overdubs an extra element to the music (Sete shoulders bass guitar and Rae weaves in a second rhythmic line) and the end result is a surprisingly smooth fusion of snaking beats and lilting chords. The second session weds Sete?s strings to a solid if slightly checkered West Coast jazz team for another clutch of light and airy bossas. Paul Horn?s flute is a bit anemic in spots, but Budwig?s athletic bass lines compensate and a nimble solo on ?Waltz of the City? boosts the tune?s stock considerably. Nick Martinez?s traps are competent if largely unremarkable despite some delicate brush play.


The final nine tunes come from Autentico! ; roll the calendar forward sixteen months. They find Sete fronting a fresh working trio with countrymen Neto and Paulinho on bass and percussion respectively. The liners describe the pair as minor legends in Brazilian music and their supple support of Sete?s filigree picking and strumming substantiates the claim. Continuity in personnel between tracks and the tight affinity the three men audibly share makes for more a more cohesive listening experience. Sete draws on the surroundings to flavor his fretwork with clever and subtle deviations in rhythm and melody, even switching to amplified strings for a few numbers like the boogaloo-driven ?Baion Blues.? This music is ideal for summer veranda listening, well-iced mojito in hand with bright-sun beaming down over a coastal ocean view. And to keep the pool analogy rolling, consider this particular ball a sure sink with plenty of natural English.

Track listing: Bolido/ Lamento de Negro/ Influ?ncia do Jazz/ Voodoo Village/ Sarav?/ Be-Bossa/ Waltz of the City/ Just Another Love/ The Girl From Lodi/ Original Joe?s/ Brejeiro/ Consola?o/ Quindim de Yaya/ Soul Samba/ Baion Blues/ Pau de Arara/ Coisa/ Odeon/ Mulher Rendeira.

Personnel: Bola Sete- guitar, bass guitar; Johnny Rae- percussion; Paul Horn- flute; Monty Budwig- bass; Nick Martinez- drums; Sebasti?o Neto- bass; Paulinho- percussion. Recorded: November 12 & December 16, 1964 and May 3, 1966.

He's got the Eight for fifty a game.
 
Lets get real!

Back in the 60's and 70's and for that matter 40's and 50's "Blacks" or "African Americans" were not allowed in "Caucasian" pool rooms. All across the US there were "strictly black " pool halls. For that matter even today there are still remaining black halls in most metropolitan cities. Iv'e talked to Cicero and Bugs and they say that when the so called pro's came to town the tournaments were not open to African Americans and it was only after the tournaments were over the a few black road warriors would be allowed to gamble it up. The old "Negro League" baseball players teams. Hell why aren't there "any" African American" golfers except Tiger Woods" but he dosen't claim blackness hhe claims that he is cabanasian whatever the hell that means' I don't even know of a black female that Tiger has dated but thats another story. Where did all the black professional caddies go? The PGA Tour had predominantly black caddies that is until the tour adopted the 10% of winning standard. Same for the jockeys in horse racing. Im digressing a little to make a point when blacks were not wanted or allowed they formed their "own" leagues and billiards never transitioned over. As unplesant as it is "racism" does exist and is alive and well even today! Ther are plenty of great black players all across the USA unfortunately they keep to themselves in usually their own rooms. Need I remind you that baseball, football, and even basketball were traditionally for whites only! Actually I should write a book but who the hell really wants to know?
 
Very true analysis...

bankshots said:
Back in the 60's and 70's and for that matter 40's and 50's "Blacks" or "African Americans" were not allowed in "Caucasian" pool rooms. All across the US there were "strictly black " pool halls. For that matter even today there are still remaining black halls in most metropolitan cities. Iv'e talked to Cicero and Bugs and they say that when the so called pro's came to town the tournaments were not open to African Americans and it was only after the tournaments were over the a few black road warriors would be allowed to gamble it up. The old "Negro League" baseball players teams. Hell why aren't there "any" African American" golfers except Tiger Woods" but he dosen't claim blackness hhe claims that he is cabanasian whatever the hell that means' I don't even know of a black female that Tiger has dated but thats another story. Where did all the black professional caddies go? The PGA Tour had predominantly black caddies that is until the tour adopted the 10% of winning standard. Same for the jockeys in horse racing. Im digressing a little to make a point when blacks were not wanted or allowed they formed their "own" leagues and billiards never transitioned over. As unplesant as it is "racism" does exist and is alive and well even today! Ther are plenty of great black players all across the USA unfortunately they keep to themselves in usually their own rooms. Need I remind you that baseball, football, and even basketball were traditionally for whites only! Actually I should write a book but who the hell really wants to know?
:( You know I was thinking precisely what you have stated this morning, a great example of what you are referring to ...

a poster on here johnnyt had PM'd me after my post about a small room in Amityville and its proprietor that I learned in in the fifties and sixties, Johnny stated he grew up in the area and played pool but had never heard of Brucies ! link..http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=58171&highlight=Brucies at first I was amazed as to how anyone that resided in the 'ville ;) had never been in much less not heard of this spot! then I realized that in all of my years of playing pool there I had never seen a white person in Brucies! and it wasn't that they would not be allowed to play or be made to feel unwelcome but in those times it just did not happen! and this was in New York ! not Jackson MS ! I also realized that because of my Uncle Cisero I was allowed in many rooms that Blacks could not normally go and feel safe or welcome I was just to young at the time to understand!
 
jay helfert said:
The guy next to Mosconi holding a cue was probably his opponent in the exhibition match. He looks like a young Cannonball, and he was a lefty. The era would be about right. Circa late 40's or early 50's Cannonball would have been in his 20's or early 30's.
I "bought" that photo on eBay a couple of years ago myself -- only problem is that I never received it :confused:

I did show Grady the original scan from the eBay listing, and he also thought of Cannonball.

I think he is probably a generation older than Chapman, however.

How about 'Detroit Slim'? or 'Rotation Slim'? The guy definitely looks like a 'Slim' :)

JohnCannonballChapman.jpg

This is a younger John Chapman
(Photo is from Part 2 of my interview with Bugs & John Henry, etc)
 
Not in any big-time pool rooms

bankshots said:
Back in the 60's and 70's and for that matter 40's and 50's "Blacks" or "African Americans" were not allowed in "Caucasian" pool rooms. All across the US there were "strictly black " pool halls. For that matter even today there are still remaining black halls in most metropolitan cities. Iv'e talked to Cicero and Bugs and they say that when the so called pro's came to town the tournaments were not open to African Americans and it was only after the tournaments were over the a few black road warriors would be allowed to gamble it up....

You're talking about neighborhood poolrooms or local poolrooms down South. I experienced no such thing in big-time Chicago pool in the '60s. When I got out of the Army in 1961 I went up to Bensingers and got to watch Johnny Cannonball Chapman play Handsome Danny Jones bank pool.
The great Javenly Youngblood Washington played there often, and Richard Baby Brother Powell played in the city 3 cushion championships (and won a few). The era I'm referring to, is late '50s, early '60s. You "talked" to Cisero (that's how you spell his name, incidentally) and Bugs. I hung out, and gambled with Cisero and Bugs. When it came to competing and gambling, color wasnt much of an issue in Chicago. Many people dont know this, but when Eddie Taylor was in town in the '50s he "lived" and played on 51st and Indiana at The House Of Champions, in the heart of what was called then, the Black Belt. There was a smaller pool hall across the street (I think it was called "Grady's") where he had a room upstairs. He stayed there sometimes for months. He liked to drink then, and oftentimes he'd get blind drunk and wander the streets down there, and Grady would send someone out to find him and carry him back home. The old-timers told many stories of waking up a drunk Eddie Taylor, sleeping on a pool table, putting a stick in his hand and leading him to a table to play someone for money. He'd be staggering around the table, but still shooting off all the balls. From what I heard from guys like Jersey Red, the situation in New York was the same.
Incidentally, Cisero was one of the funniest guys I knew. When an earthquake hit a Fred Whalen tournament in LA, when all the pool players were staying at the Elks Club, Cisero and I were on the top floor(the 9th). In the midst of all the chaos, running down the stairs to get out of the building (the elevators were not working) Cisero quipped, "I'm never going on the road without my parachute again."
This is for Cisero's nephew, MrLucky: Your uncle played a straight pool match game of 1500 points against Luther Wimpy Lassiter in Wimpy's home poolroom in Elizabeth NC. Cis beat him handily with a high run of over 200 balls. Put that in the family scrapbook.

the Beard
(I got a line of budget cues on my website now)
 
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Willie Munson, Milwaukee, Wisconsin

As soon as I saw this thread, the first name that came to me was Willie Munson. I wish I would have been able to see him in his early days, I think I was just starting grade school then. From the few old timers I knew in the mid seventies that saw him play, he was hard to beat at any game. The few times I played him, once he saw I could shoot a little, he never left me anything to shoot at!
 
Hey Beard ... Thanks for the inside scoop concerning Pool in Chicago back in the day ... I lived in East St. Louis as a kid and graduated from East Side High in 1960 ... Pool was my passion in those days (and still is) ... My best pal and I played all over town, but mostly in the Rooms that were considered off-limits to young white boys ... The regulars soon realized that we were serious about learning the games (14-1 and Snooker) and we were always welcome, day or night ... If our folks had ever found out where we were hanging out, we would have been skinned alive ... We made it up to Chi-town several times (after I bought my first car) and always played in a Room on State Street, down from Sailor Bill's Tatoo Parlor ... Gas was 18 cents then, HA !!! ... We would play for as many hours as we could stand up and then would crash in my car for a few hours before the long trip back home ... How many of those old rooms still exist ..?? .. The closest thing to them here on the West Coast is The Jointed Cue in South Sacramento ... Players of every shade enjoy the game, the food, the bs, and mostly the warm welcome received by all ..
 
The joint on State street

Str8PoolPlayer said:
Hey Beard ... Thanks for the inside scoop concerning Pool in Chicago back in the day ... I lived in East St. Louis as a kid and graduated from East Side High in 1960 ... Pool was my passion in those days (and still is) ... My best pal and I played all over town, but mostly in the Rooms that were considered off-limits to young white boys ... The regulars soon realized that we were serious about learning the games (14-1 and Snooker) and we were always welcome, day or night ... If our folks had ever found out where we were hanging out, we would have been skinned alive ... We made it up to Chi-town several times (after I bought my first car) and always played in a Room on State Street, down from Sailor Bill's Tatoo Parlor ... Gas was 18 cents then, HA !!! ... We would play for as many hours as we could stand up and then would crash in my car for a few hours before the long trip back home ... How many of those old rooms still exist ..?? .. The closest thing to them here on the West Coast is The Jointed Cue in South Sacramento ... Players of every shade enjoy the game, the food, the bs, and mostly the warm welcome received by all ..

The pool room on State Street was used in the book,The Hustler. When Fast Eddie first plays after his thumbs heal, he plays an old man in a room based on the State Street joint. You must have been some kind of a rounder to play in that joint, because even I was a little skittish about playing in there. There was a big sign on the wall that said "No Dope dealing or pimping allowed." There was a real cross-section of humanity in there. The best players were Jew Town Red (a black man, who once saved my life) and Polack Frank the Killer. I think it only had about 4 or 5 tables in the back with a grill up front. It's been closed for at least 30 years. I think all the tables were 5x 10's.

the Beard
 
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