Aiming systems

Sean, I think some methods work for different people IMO, was not really taught where to shoot until recently, although I did well before connecting the dots so to speak my game has jumped up from this. I guess the shaft method would be called CTE even though I have not read up on it here but might since I have seen some great results in the past 6 months or so. :)
 
strong visualization skills

sfleinen said:
Geometry and JB Cases (and others, for that matter):

As AtLarge mentioned about Tony Robles being able to see the entire ghost ball, plain as day, I'm also in that camp. I can not only visualize that ghost ball, but I can actually "see" it, due to excellent 3D spacial perception that I (humbly) was gifted with.

(great stuff, clipped for length)

Sean
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Sean,

Great stuff here. First pointing out that we aren't all the same. A system that works for one person another will not be able to use at all. I can't use fractions. When I'm trying to actually line up a quarter of a ball hit with a cue ball that is perceptually four times bigger than an object ball it just doesn't work for me. I can easily shoot a quarter ball overlap but I shoot it by knowing the angle, it doesn't look anything like a quarter ball overlap to me. The same is true of any other angled shot.

I started with ghost ball way back when as most of us did and I sometimes get a brief visual image of the ghost ball, like you actually seeing a ball there. I could probably work on this making it stronger as you have then it becomes what I would call a skill built on a gift rather than only a gift. My visualization skills run from pretty strong to very weak, lack of exercise I suspect.

On a great day I can visualize an entire run out before I start but it is so much more than just visualization.To a certain extent I can smell the chalk, feel the vibration of the cue in my hands, hear the thud of the cue stick into the cue ball and the tink of balls colliding. When we make this visualization as complete as possible it is very close to practicing, maybe even better than practicing when we already know technique and just need repetition.

A side trip, I hear the "thud" of the cue tip into the cue ball, it ain't supposed to tink! I shot with a softer tip for so long that I'm putting them back on my shafts. That danged tink when I hit the cue ball doesn't match my visualization.

Back on subject, when we are able to fully visualize a shot, with at least three senses, seeing, feeling, and hearing the shot, our chances of missing are almost zero. We will shoot exactly the shot we intend to shoot and only if we made a basic error and miscalculated the shot to begin with can we miss. I'd say the best aiming system of all is making the shot a few times in our mind right up to and including the object ball rolling into the pocket and the cue ball going exactly where we want it to. We usually create our visualization which is why we almost always miss the shots we visualize missing too. Got to have faith in the shot to make it.

Hu
 
sfleinen said:
Geometry and JB Cases (and others, for that matter):

As AtLarge mentioned about Tony Robles being able to see the entire ghost ball, plain as day, I'm also in that camp. I can not only visualize that ghost ball, but I can actually "see" it, due to excellent 3D spacial perception that I (humbly) was gifted with.

And my ability to "see" it includes all aspects; the size of the ghost ball, where it sits on the cloth, where it's touching the object ball -- and I can do this no matter where I am in relation to the shot, no matter where I'm standing at the table. I literally can see it so clearly, that with my eyes focused on that ghostball and never taking my eyes off of it, I can reach my arm over my head, extend my index finger in a pointing downwards motion, and then bring my arm down swiftly so that my pointed-downwards index finger pierces right through the middle of it. Or, from 6 or more feet away, I can extend my cue and swiftly bring the tip down to rest upon the exact spot where the ghostball sits, no matter where I am in relation to the shot; if I gently lay the cue to rest on the table, with the tip resting on the spot where the ghostball sits, and then walk over behind the object ball in line with the shot and examine closely, the cue tip is resting upon the exact spot where a cue ball would be sitting if it were in contact with the object ball to pocket that object ball.

I admit, this is a gift that I'm very thankful for. And I'm thankful for this because I realize that the majority of people don't have this ability. And it's become increasingly clear to me, when I read all these aiming threads on AZBilliards, that this lucid 3D spacial perception is not common at all.

So JB Cases, before you go asking questions like "How do you know where the ghost (imaginary ball) is?" in a challenging manner, please realize that different people have different skills, different levels of visual perception. And it's not a matter of eyesight strength, either. I've seen 80-year-olds that've demonstrated to me they "see" the ghostball very clearly, even with Macular Degeneration. They've done the "put the cue tip upon the exact spot where the ghostball sits in-line with the shot" from over 6 feet away, which proves to me that they aren't hiding the ability to see the ghostball by using some other method. They may not be able to see the edges of the balls clearly due to Macular Degeneration, but they can certainly see the center of a fuzzy image, and can put their cue tip through the middle of it.

Just as is the case with folks doubting CTE, don't get caught in the same trap and doubt ghostball technique works, or that some folks do it better than others.

Just some food for thought,
-Sean
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The reason I don't like Ghost Ball isn't due to my 3D spacial perception being inferior to yours. I think you are looking for ways that makes you special. I've used this system for years and over that time I have altered/refined my implementation of it. Its still an abstract aiming system that requires visualisation.
 
genomachino said:
All aiming systems are the same in the respect that if they work there is only one perfect spot to have the eye that is doing the shooting. Just like a gun.

If the aiming system or technique get you to this one perfect spot then you have a winner.

This is why sometimes when you get down to shoot the shot looks really good like it will go.

And then sometimes it doesn't quite look right. Move your head a little bit. You will find the right spot on that shot by doing this.

Wouldn't it be nice to know where that spot is on every shot.

You can.......
Click to expand...

i can tell you this much gene has the most accurate aiming, actually sighting method around get his dvd and then call him and he will go over the material to make sure you understand it, i spoke with him and lets just say i see more clearly:thumbup:
 
i think aiming systems are a way to teach beginner players how to visualize where to hit the ball. after that its just something to go back to in rough times to get confidence back. think about it when you are confident and winning at the table, the balls look like beach balls and pockets look like canyons. the second you are in a slump you start trying to get back to basics. which i cant think of something more basic than aiming. i think more talk of mechanics of certain body types is a better discussion.
 
JasonCrugar said:
i think more talk of mechanics of certain body types is a better discussion.
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I can dig it! Like how does a large breasted women stroke the ball. Don't
they get in the way? Do they cause more side spin or draw? Do they limit top spin? Are they like BHE only MHE ( middle hand english)? Inquiring
minds want to know.

George the Jump :dance:
 
12310bch said:
I can dig it! Like how does a large breasted women stroke the ball. Don't
they get in the way? Do they cause more side spin or draw? Do they limit top spin? Are they like BHE only MHE ( middle hand english)? Inquiring
minds want to know.

George the Jump :dance:
Click to expand...

they stroke around the breast. yes very much so. no they cause opponents to use excessive amounts of said spin. no they do not limit spin for them. not like bhe or mhe, more like ass weights just alot better and more desirable
 
JasonCrugar said:
i think aiming systems are a way to teach beginner players how to visualize where to hit the ball. after that its just something to go back to in rough times to get confidence back. think about it when you are confident and winning at the table, the balls look like beach balls and pockets look like canyons. the second you are in a slump you start trying to get back to basics. which i cant think of something more basic than aiming. i think more talk of mechanics of certain body types is a better discussion.
Click to expand...

How about the times when your playing good but not real good, and you have a tough shot that you have to make. It's nice to have a reliable system even if its only to double check your initial guess.
 
sfleinen said:
Geometry and JB Cases (and others, for that matter):

As AtLarge mentioned about Tony Robles being able to see the entire ghost ball, plain as day, I'm also in that camp. I can not only visualize that ghost ball, but I can actually "see" it, due to excellent 3D spacial perception that I (humbly) was gifted with.

And my ability to "see" it includes all aspects; the size of the ghost ball, where it sits on the cloth, where it's touching the object ball -- and I can do this no matter where I am in relation to the shot, no matter where I'm standing at the table. I literally can see it so clearly, that with my eyes focused on that ghostball and never taking my eyes off of it, I can reach my arm over my head, extend my index finger in a pointing downwards motion, and then bring my arm down swiftly so that my pointed-downwards index finger pierces right through the middle of it. Or, from 6 or more feet away, I can extend my cue and swiftly bring the tip down to rest upon the exact spot where the ghostball sits, no matter where I am in relation to the shot; if I gently lay the cue to rest on the table, with the tip resting on the spot where the ghostball sits, and then walk over behind the object ball in line with the shot and examine closely, the cue tip is resting upon the exact spot where a cue ball would be sitting if it were in contact with the object ball to pocket that object ball.

I admit, this is a gift that I'm very thankful for. And I'm thankful for this because I realize that the majority of people don't have this ability. And it's become increasingly clear to me, when I read all these aiming threads on AZBilliards, that this lucid 3D spacial perception is not common at all.

So JB Cases, before you go asking questions like "How do you know where the ghost (imaginary ball) is?" in a challenging manner, please realize that different people have different skills, different levels of visual perception. And it's not a matter of eyesight strength, either. I've seen 80-year-olds that've demonstrated to me they "see" the ghostball very clearly, even with Macular Degeneration. They've done the "put the cue tip upon the exact spot where the ghostball sits in-line with the shot" from over 6 feet away, which proves to me that they aren't hiding the ability to see the ghostball by using some other method. They may not be able to see the edges of the balls clearly due to Macular Degeneration, but they can certainly see the center of a fuzzy image, and can put their cue tip through the middle of it.

Just as is the case with folks doubting CTE, don't get caught in the same trap and doubt ghostball technique works, or that some folks do it better than others.

Just some food for thought,
-Sean
Click to expand...

Sorry Sean,

The original poster phrased his comment in a derogatory manner that was dismissive of aiming systems in my opinion and that was the tone of my reply.

You actually answered the question of how do you know where the Ghost Ball is. And that's great for you. Most people aren't born with your gifts of being able to imagine objects in their entirety in spatial relationship to other objects. As in if you ask them to tell you the distance between two objects most people will not be right.

I also know people who can't "see" but they play pool at a higher level than me.

My only real point was that Ghost Ball does not work for everyone. Some people do in fact "see" the Ghost Ball but they don't see it in the right place. I am one of these people.

All my life instructors have asked me what I am aiming at when I felt like I was dead nuts on target for the perfect spot to make the ball.

Now people can dismiss aiming systems, they can tear them apart, or whatever they want to do - that's fine with me because each person has to learn to do whatever is best for them. I don't really care any more what other people do.

For ME learning Hal's systems has improved my ball making significantly and raised my game up at least two balls.

Before Hal taught me in person I paid ZERO attention to him and all the discussions surrounding aiming systems. I had read Robert Byrne's book on the subject and used Ghost Ball as taught in the book and thought that when I missed a ball then it was because of some other factor and not my aiming method. I honestly NEVER ONCE read any of the posts on RSB concerning Hal Houle and his methods prior to my friend Bob Johnson in Denver calling me and telling me that Hal Houle was in town and wanted to see me.

At first I didn't even know who he was. That's how little attention I paid to him on RSB. I had to go on RSB and look him up to see what I was in for.

After meeting him and learning the systems I went home and started messing with them and I was like OH MY GOD why does this work and why didn't I know about it.

I exuberantly posted on RSB a few days later that I had found the holy grail of pool - and promptly found out that I wasn't alone and also that I was now part of a club of people who would be soundly and loudly derided by another group of people who didn't believe in Hal's systems.

So this whole system vs. feel - system vs. million balls debate has been going on for a decade now online.

I don't care. I will stand up and testify that the system I learned 8 years ago works for me better than the ghost ball method. I make more balls, win more games, and get more applause for great shots. It sort of pisses me off that I can't do it a little more naturally with just feel but maybe if I had learned this when I was 16 instead of 36 it would be a natural flowing part of my game now.

And there are too many people who are way smarter than I am who have confirmed that these systems work. They just work.

So in conclusion, ghost ball is great for those who can imagine an invisible ball and who then can subsequently adjust for swerve and squirt and deflection. For me Hal's system coupled with backhand english is the nuts.

So to answer the original poster's question, why don't we just all use ghost ball. Because ghost ball doesn't work for all of us.
 
When any one of us non-pros puts up a video like Spidey did (Dave used CTE) where they make fifteen our sixteen shots in Colin Colenso's potting test using the ghost ball method then I will believe that ghost ball is as good as multi-reference point systems. Dave came over to my booth and showed me about ten minutes of CTE and he made just about every ball he shot at dead in the heart of the hole.

I don't know why it works. I don't care. Y'all can say he subconsciously adjusts for every shot or whatever. He is doing the same thing on every shot or at least he consciously thinks he does and he pockets balls consistently. I would bet pretty large that you take a high B ranked player who doesn't use a system (relies on feel) or even who claims to use ghost ball and put them up against Dave who is a B player I think and do Colin's potting test that Dave will beat the other player just about every time.

I am that confident about Aiming Systems. There is a reason why Joe Tucker and the best instructors in America endorse and teach aiming systems. They work.

Old Hal was right all along.
 
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isn't ghost ball for beginners? its just a way of geometrically perceiving the path of the balls, but it just seems so incomplete...actually I believe it will stop progress if you think thats all there is to it. often times there will be shots where you hit a certain spot thinking ghostball will send it in a particular direction but ends up at another.
 
It's often taught to beginners but that's not because it's "for" beginners. It's taught because it's easy and correct and doesn't need hours of experience (which isn't to say you don't need hours to make balls. But you can see where you're supposed to aim right away).

Throw and whatnot can cause a ball to go on a different line than the one the ghostball suggests, but you have to know the line the ball's supposed to take before you can adjust for that stuff. It isn't useful to learn the "throw line" because that will change depending on spin, speed, and ball conditions. But the "ideal line" doesn't really change.
 
dr_dave said:
Illustrations, demonstrations, and descriptions of many aiming methods can be found here:


I think "equal opposite points" is the same as "contact-point-to-contact-point." Info on that technique can be found here:


Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...


Everyone who visited Dave s Site usualy has not one question anymore :-)


But from my experience it s also my opinion that for each player a different system works better than the other- we re all human- and each is different :-)
It s no mistake for sure to know how some systems work- but if one is working good for your, all is good. At least i personally using a bit of several systems- depending on the shot/+angle/distance .

Who pay "extra attention" on particular shots and the extra attention apparently pays BIG DIVIDENDS. imo, Aiming systems is that they help your eyes and mind to pay more attention to what you are attempting to do.


lg from overseas

Ingo
 
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searcyD said:
isn't ghost ball for beginners? its just a way of geometrically perceiving the path of the balls, but it just seems so incomplete...actually I believe it will stop progress if you think thats all there is to it. often times there will be shots where you hit a certain spot thinking ghostball will send it in a particular direction but ends up at another.
Click to expand...

All systems ' perceive' geometrically in one manner or another. Ghost ball
uses more visualization than most systems. Actually it is less of a,"System,"
than other systems. Ghostball sends no OB in any particular direction. It is not really there and has no substance. The shooter sends balls on their way. If the GB is lined up correctly and the shooter strikes the aiming spot accurately the OB will go where intended. If the OB goes in a direction not intended by the shooter it is called an ,"F-ing missed shot," and is caused
by the F-ing shooter. Yes , it is for beginners. And for anybody else that
it f-ing works for.
 
CTE for example is so intuative that it has taken 400+ posts on SpiderWebComm's CTE Aiming thread and some still don't get it.:smile:
 
LAMas said:
CTE for example is so intuative that it has taken 400+ posts on SpiderWebComm's CTE Aiming thread and some still don't get it.:smile:
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It's not intuitive at all. Not to me. But when I use it the ball goes in the hole even if it feels like I am on the wrong line.

And that's the key for me. When I am approaching the shot intuitively then I am often wrong. Sometimes I am right.

When I approach the shot with CTE or another system then I am more often right and not only right but REALLY right.

What I mean is that when I use intuition and feel then sometimes the ball goes in clean, sometimes it rattles and goes in, sometimes it hits the rail first and goes in and sometimes it misses in any of these ways.

But when I use the system then the ball goes clean every time. I either miss outright or it goes clean in the center of the hole.

One of these days I will figure out how to explain these systems in as easy a way as ghost ball. My theory, and only Robert Byrne or someone more familiar with the origins of it can verify this, is that "ghost ball" aiming was "invented" because it's easy to diagram and describe.

It's easy to put this into print and show it on the flat page. Everyone gets it immediately as a concept.

However as a practice it just doesn't work for most of us.

When I learned Hal's system, I went to my weekly tournament at the bar near my house. I don't remember the bar but some of you from the Loveland/Ft. Collins Co. area will, it was Mel's place in Loveland.

Anyway the owner's name is Melody and her boyfriend is John. They were at the time APA 3 and 5s. I decided to teach them Hal's system and see if they would get it.

Melody, the APA 3 started pocketing balls that she would normally have NO CHANCE to make. It took John a little while longer to get it but when he did he was rifling balls in from everywhere. They were like little kids in the candy store. They were setting up shot after shot to challenge each other. A little later in the evening John comes up to me to tell me that they have discovered something else.

He says that if they are shooting at the side pocket and they aim through the center of the cue ball to just past the edge of the object ball then they can make the object ball in the side from nearly any angle. I try it and sure enough it works.

The point being that while this type of reference point aiming is not intuitive, at least not for someone who was raised on Robert Byrne and ghost ball, it definitely works and there is definitely a reason why it works.

With people like Dave and others thinking about it in depth eventually one of them will come across the way to explain it that is as easy as ghost ball and then most people from that point on will be less apt to dismiss it because it seems complicated.

Like I said 15 out of 16 shots on video doesn't lie. The system works. If ghost ball worked then there wouldn't be 400 posts of people discussing something else. Sorry but imaginary balls in space don't work as well as lines between visible points. IMO.
 
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