Alex's performance in Turning Stone finals

[BasementDweller]

Up to the point you posted that noone has stated that Alex dumped the match. It has been suggested that a saver or split might have been in the works which took the pressure off of both players and made an exhibition out of the match, but that is not a "dump", both players still show up and play to see who wins, just without most of the pressure and stakes on the line anymore.

Splits are tremendously common in pool in these events and we have even had pro players come onto this very forum, admit to splitting big event pots in the finals, and justify it. And few people even get on them about that, pool professional is a tough racket. But all of that said, when you see a finals like this and people ask "what is wrong with Alex" the split is a very possible reason why he did not seem as fired up to win as we sometimes see him.

There is noone stating that Alex dumped, Alex just played fairly unispired pool against a guy who was shooing loose and shooting the lights out and got totally drilled.

It was implied in an earlier post that Alex dumped in order for Rodney to get needed Mosconi cup points. It was at that point that I tried to point out the difference between splitting and dumping.

I think the practice of splitting the winnings can be debated but there's not much debate about dumping a match if you ask me. So I think the vague implication that Alex dumped was very unfair.

 

[Celtic]

It was implied in an earlier post that Alex dumped in order for Rodney to get needed Mosconi cup points. It was at that point that I tried to point out the difference between splitting and dumping.

I think the practice of splitting the winnings can be debated but there's not much debate about dumping a match if you ask me. So I think the vague implication that Alex dumped was very unfair.

True, I forgot about that Mosconi Cup post, that was a little beyond a fair assessment, you are correct on that one. I don't think Alex or Rodney would go doing that, and the way Rodney played in that finals the USA is wanting that guy on their team for sure come MC time because while Alex seemed off Rodney shot phenomenal.

 

[asbani]

I watched the match, Rodney played really well, but lets understand one thing, if a pro has no pressure, he will play really great no matter what, I can't say for sure whats been happening but I know one thing for sure, the Break was a mystery and i'll tell you why.

just an hour before the finals Alex played on that same table and he was breaking of the LEFT-side of the table (on the player point of view) all game long, and he was successful breaking from there, he was down 6-2 he never gave up, took his time, and came back and won the game, and he remained breaking from there the whole match.

Rodney was watching that match, he knew the best spot on that table to break from as he been watching Alex, so now move onto the finals, Rodney took that same exact spot where Alex was breaking from in the semi-final, but what really shock me, and I was so surprised by this move, Alex actually moved the cueball to the other side on the finals, Right-side (player view) he didn't make a ball on his first break attempt, then rodney broke from the Left-side made balls, then again when alex won another game, he went to the same Right-side which is not the correct side and broke again, also he didn't make a ball, not surprised there, I mean in the semi-finals he has the right breaking spot, why change that in the finals and twice even tho you haven't made a ball on break, then to my shocking yet again, he went to that same spot (Right-side) and break, DRY again, what do you know, 3 or 4 times he broke from the wrong side I think.

Rodney never changed the spot that Alex broke from in the semi-final, he always got nice breaks from there, and only when Rodney has a signifecant lead, only then Alex moved the cueball to that spot Left-side (to the player view).

this raised alot of questions to me during the match, and I was thinking to myself, what is Alex thinking doing that in the finals, I just couldn't understand it, but now I think I do, and it make perfect sense.

 

[stuckart]

I watched the match, Rodney played really well, but lets understand one thing, if a pro has no pressure, he will play really great no matter what, I can't say for sure whats been happening but I know one thing for sure, the Break was a mystery and i'll tell you why.

just an hour before the finals Alex played on that same table and he was breaking of the LEFT-side of the table (on the player point of view) all game long, and he was successful breaking from there, he was down 6-2 he never gave up, took his time, and came back and won the game, and he remained breaking from there the whole match.

Rodney was watching that match, he knew the best spot on that table to break from as he been watching Alex, so now move onto the finals, Rodney took that same exact spot where Alex was breaking from in the semi-final, but what really shock me, and I was so surprised by this move, Alex actually moved the cueball to the other side on the finals, Right-side (player view) he didn't make a ball on his first break attempt, then rodney broke from the Left-side made balls, then again when alex won another game, he went to the same Right-side which is not the correct side and broke again, also he didn't make a ball, not surprised there, I mean in the semi-finals he has the right breaking spot, why change that in the finals and twice even tho you haven't made a ball on break, then to my shocking yet again, he went to that same spot (Right-side) and break, DRY again, what do you know, 3 or 4 times he broke from the wrong side I think.

Rodney never changed the spot that Alex broke from in the semi-final, he always got nice breaks from there, and only when Rodney has a signifecant lead, only then Alex moved the cueball to that spot Left-side (to the player view).

this raised alot of questions to me during the match, and I was thinking to myself, what is Alex thinking doing that in the finals, I just couldn't understand it, but now I think I do, and it make perfect sense.

I was chatting via PM with a few people during this episode and the same thing came up. We couldn't figure out why he would do that. Yes, I understand Alex was tired and his Tennis Elbow, yada yada.
I don't think there was a dump of any kind, but I do think the two probably split the 1st and 2nd winnings. It was only a 2K difference anyway and they both killed themselves all tourney to get to the finals. I also don't think there is anything wrong with it. It's not like a US Open or something where you get the Title for Life.

Really, it doesn't matter! Rodney was playing great the entire time (besides the hotseat when he was taking some flyers) and deserved the win. He was more rested physically and mentally, made balls on the break and ran out over and over.

 

[scsuxci]

I think it was an obvious split....with Rodney needing the Mosconi points !!!

-Steve

Dead on,not saying Rodney could not beat Alex but I think it was just to obvious to me that Alex was doing Rodney a solid by letting him get the points.If Alex was playing Shawn or anybody else I think his mistakes wouldn't have looked so obvious what was going on.Just my opinion:smile:

 

[cyrex]

The finals

Personally, I think Alex was just exhausted. He just played a ton of matches, the last one with Putnam went 2.5 hours hill/hill! That will wipe you out. While Rodney had time to eat, relax and completely refresh.

Rodney came out slugging and was running balls center pocket like it was nothing. People had been rattling balls all weekend and Rodney made them look like buckets! I think Alex was just wiped out and happy to get a decent sized check for the weekend. He was done! If the Mosconi points came into play, then it was only as a motivator to Rodney to step up his game. He clearly wanted that 1st place win!


Big THANK YOU to everyone that was involved with making this happen for the fans. I, for one, appreciate it. If it were local, I would have been in the stands watching some world class pool. But thank you to all the sponsors who got us there anyway.

 

[LAMas]

Where was the audience?

I only saw the last few games of the finals where Alex started his comeback off of Rockets dry break.

Alex's stroke was being pushed forward with some body english, but perhaps that's how he always strokes? He got some terrific english stroking like that, but he was out of line when the CB headed toward the six, kissed it and scratched.

The free stream was great with many sweaters tuned in...the future of pool?:thumbup:

 

[budonahog]

The score in the match on Friday between Rodney and alex was 9-6. I guess Alex took a walk on the one loss side to help Rodney out there as well.

 

[Getnbzy]

People wonder why pool is getting bad rap? Why there is no money in it? Where's the big tournaments? Read this thread! It's all about ASSUMPTIONS about the people we want to play like, watch play and think the best about. Keep trashing pool and it's players on the largest pool site on the internet. Those that read it will understand why pool and the majority of it's players get such a bad rap.

Rodney Morris - WOW, You played incredible the entire tournmanet!
Alex Pagulayan - DOUBLE WOW for coming back, playing many hours and giving it your best after umpteen hours of pool.

AZBTV - Thank you for the FREE stream! I enjoyed all the days of watching, coming back and watching the recorded matches at great resolution, great commentary and multiple camera views. YOU GUYS ROCK!

I want to take time out to thank AZBTV for the stream as well. I also want to thank tank for the great pix from the SW reg. at the fort. Top notch my friend...except for the goof in the tommy bahama luau shirt shooting southpaw. If he plays like he dresses he is my pick for the 5 and under next year.

 

[cmbwsu]

A little something on Turning Stone XVII from UpstateAl:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VnIATJM2PY

 

[justadub]

And you guys wonder why pool has a bad name? With NO evidence whatsoever, this thread has turned into Rodney and Alex obviously dumping. Why SHOULD pool get a better name, when the same people that complain about it having a bad name ensure that it does??

There should have been NO mention of a dump unless there was some type of evidence that there was one. And, less than stellar performance by one person does NOT constitute evidence!

You want to clean up pool? Then stop talking bad about it! All you do is put doubt in any potential sponsors minds. Doubt that shouldn't be there in the first place.

Some of us lamented the fact that splits, savers and yes, dumping are part of the game, and even if that wasn't the case this time, the appearance of it really cheapens the sport.

I made no assumptions as to whether that happened this time.

But as someone else pointed out, we have had pro's some onto this very site and state that they have done savers and splits, and will do so again.

I know it's not how I make my living, and it's none of my business, but the "fan" in me thinks that stinks.

Stop talking bad about pool? Spend a little while hear, reading about hustles and splits and savers and such, and tell me not to talk bad about it.... I don't need to talk bad about pool. Pool players themselves, the really good ones, take care of that quite nicely on their own.

 

[AtLarge]

... but what really shock me, and I was so surprised by this move, Alex actually moved the cueball to the other side on the finals ...
this raised alot of questions to me during the match, and I was thinking to myself, what is Alex thinking doing that in the finals, I just couldn't understand it, but now I think I do, and it make perfect sense.

So, if I read this correctly, your theory is that Alex changed breaking sides in order to break dry and allow Rodney to win more easily.

I think that is absurd. Here are two alternative possibilities for why Alex changed the side from which he broke the balls.

(1) Even if Alex makes a ball breaking from spot A on the table, he may change for the next break to spot B simply because he is not satisfied with the spread of the balls and the potential for a runout that he got from spot A. One of the commentators said (I forget during which match) he had asked Alex about exactly this situation -- making a ball from one spot yet changing locations for the next break. Alex' answer was what I said above.

(2) A perfect 9-ball rack has 16 ball-to-ball contact points. But it's probably rare to achieve all 16 with a regular triangle rack. A player of Alex' skill and experience knows how to read the rack, that is, find the gaps between the balls and break from a position that has the best likelihood of producing a successful break. He may have changed breaking sides because the balls were racked slightly differently from one time to the next.

 

[The Chinchilla]

LMAO

We all know Sigel never showed off, for the rail! :grin: And he was never, really, a good entertainer????????????????/

Haha, that's true for sure. The difference imo is that sigel did everything to increase his chances of winning (ie I feel he "entertained" to calm himself). I don't see that in Alex's game; he takes shots that he wants people to talk about sometimes I feel. But that's fine, he can do what he wants. I'd put Deuel in this category too. Players that did/do NOT take showoff shots in critical spots: reyes, sigel, rempe, buddy, varner, parica.... in other words, all the best players. Anyway, just an observation

 

[The Chinchilla]

So, if I read this correctly, your theory is that Alex changed breaking sides in order to break dry and allow Rodney to win more easily.

I think that is absurd. Here are two alternative possibilities for why Alex changed the side from which he broke the balls.

(1) Even if Alex makes a ball breaking from spot A on the table, he may change for the next break to spot B simply because he is not satisfied with the spread of the balls and the potential for a runout that he got from spot A. One of the commentators said (I forget during which match) he had asked Alex about exactly this situation -- making a ball from one spot yet changing locations for the next break. Alex' answer was what I said above.

(2) A perfect 9-ball rack has 16 ball-to-ball contact points. But it's probably rare to achieve all 16 with a regular triangle rack. A player of Alex' skill and experience knows how to read the rack, that is, find the gaps between the balls and break from a position that has the best likelihood of producing a successful break. He may have changed breaking sides because the balls were racked slightly differently from one time to the next.

The entire point here should revolve around if he made the corner ball in "spot A." If he made the corner ball, then moved, that is very very suspicious. To your second point, was he checking the rack? If so there is a valid argument there. If not, there isn't.

 

[The Chinchilla]

Pool players themselves, the really good ones, take care of that quite nicely on their own.

Ok, last successive post, but have some decent first prize money in events and players would not have to do this stuff to play the game they love for a living. The thing that always gets me, as respected as the golfers are for example, is they (golfers) would do the same exact thing if they had to scrape by. There is absolutely no doubt about it. How do I know? Because if they didn't, they'd have to hang it up. In short, i'm not necessarily attempting to justify the players' behavior, i'm just trying to make people realize that if they haven't had to put food on the table with pool they need to stop judging.

 

[Neil]

................

 

[AtLarge]

The entire point here should revolve around if he made the corner ball in "spot A." If he made the corner ball, then moved, that is very very suspicious. To your second point, was he checking the rack? If so there is a valid argument there. If not, there isn't.

As I said, making a ball (corner or not) the previous time he broke is not always Alex' sole criterion for where he breaks the next time.

Yes, he checked the rack all 8 games he broke. And he changed breaking sides twice. In games 1 and 2 he broke from his left side; in games 7 and 11 he broke from his right side; and in games 15, 18, 19, and 20 he broke from his left side.

 

[houmatroy]

In the words of the imfamous Ronnie Allen !

Dumping & dogging it look exactly the same...

 

[The Chinchilla]

I disagree with this. He, and Corey, take shots that they feel is the best option for them at the time. Just because most wouldn't shoot them, doesn't mean they shouldn't.

Yeah, well go look at the video where it is 8-7 alex going to 9 against dan heidel. He tries to put him behind the point of the side!? Ok, I have never seen what I consider to be a truly great choice maker/winner do that, but I understand, to each their own. I think he likes to showoff and get people talking; I hope i'm wrong. He really should have lost because of that shot too.

 

[Neil]

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