Allison Fisher or Jean Balukas?

Okay, here's my two cents on the subject, and like SJM I saw them both play many times.

First of all, it's like comparing Lassiter with Archer. Different players from different eras. But I have done that before on here and I will again.

Jean was unquestionably the best woman player of her era. It wasn't even close (with one exception). She was about two speeds above some other pretty good players. Most notably Loree Jon, Robin, Ewa, Belinda, Mary Kenniston and Geraldine Titcomb. The second best woman player (the exception) of that era was Lori Shampo, who was primarily a gambler. Lori actually played a lot like Jasmin.

The field for most women's 9-Ball tourneys back then usually had 16 players. Over 20 was a big field, and only the U.S. Open got 32 players. I don't know who Jean played like in the current crop of players. I honestly can't think of one woman to compare her too. Her game was more like a man, maybe a Mike Davis style. Kind of big and powerful.

Just like SJM said, Allison has had to face larger and deeper fields of good opponents. I'm amazed she continues to win, considering there are more good players coming onto the WPBT all the time. And she has had one super strong opponent in Karen Corr for many years now. Jean never had a challenger like this, mainly because Lori rarely made it to a women's event. She was usually in action somewhere for far more money.

So on the surface it would appear that Allison is the stronger player. But now for the intangibles. Jean had a way of rising to the occasion. She seemed able to elevate her game to the level of the competition. She played one speed against the women and another speed in men's events. Like Karen and Jeanette, Jean often beat top men players. To their utter dismay I might add. I truly believe that if she had continued to play in men's tournaments, she would eventually have won one. It was just so controversial at the time though.

I've often been asked how Jean would do on todays WPBT. And my answer is she would win her share. She would not be the dominant player by any means. But I believe she would win tournaments, and be right there in the mix. One of the top players if you will.

You see once again, pool on the highest level comes down to heart. Jean had this quality. She knew how to win. Saying all this, I agree with SJM. It's a toss up. One day Archer wins. One day Souquet wins. Got it.
 
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thebighurt said:
I asked johnny Ervolino one time when he was at my house who was better jean or Allison? He told me Jean would have robbed her. He said she broke the balls way better than Allison and she played like a man!!

In an interview Efren once praised how Allisons stroke is much better than his, but also when asked, he thought that Balukas was better from those two..
 
If Jean and Allision would play a match game of 10-ball race to 50 do you all think it would sell or not enough people around that know who they are now? Johnnyt
 
Allison has prevailed DESPITE the issues of short races and a weak break

imo, straight pool without it's luck/slop shots and without the break shot allows the cream to rise to the top a little more, and it's definetly better suited for snooker players than nine ball

If the game of the day was straights, Allison would win everything

also, leaving one's country and switching disciplines takes big time heart

not many men have done that, and no men in the modern era have won world titles in different disciplines

If you think Babe Ruth was better than Ken Griffey Jr, then I can understand you picking Jean, but all of us should look at these generational hypotheticals with a little more objectivity

btw I WISH I saw Jean in her prime, actually i wish she'd just come back and play again, she could put this whole argument to rest :)
 
It would be

probably the biggest draw of any 2 players matching up. I bet it would be snatched up for TV, and you would have to turn down railbirds clamoring to get in.

Allison and Jean could probably take the money from the match and invest it in a retirement fund that would draw enough interest to provide them with a nice little monthly nest egg when they hang up their cues for good.

Allison is a great player, but Jean is the woman player I admire the most.
 
jay helfert said:
The second best woman player (the exception) of that era was Lori Shampo, who was primarily a gambler. Lori actually played a lot like Jasmin.

Very interesting Jay, great perspective. I am just curious, I think I have heard Lori talked about once before on this forum. Whatever happened to her?
 
cuechick said:
Very interesting Jay, great perspective. I am just curious, I think I have heard Lori talked about once before on this forum. Whatever happened to her?

Lori lost her battle with cancer a few years ago. It was a very sad day in women's pool.
 
jay helfert said:
The second best woman player (the exception) of that era was Lori Shampo, who was primarily a gambler.

I'd reckon that Gloria Walker was, more or less, on a par with Lori Shampo in the late 1970's, though Lori went on to be the slightly better of the two in the early 1980's.
 
I've heard enough about weak competition for Jean. She also didn't get to play on 860 with perfect rails, and surroundings and equipment. I saw her play when I was in college and she played just like a Man. NOONE had to beat her in a race to nine. She could string'em with the best of them. Put her on 860 with those wide pockets they have played some of the women's events on (they are not all loose, but go back and watch some of the events in the 90's through early 2000's when they could hit the second diamond down the rail). Jean quit because there was no money in it, period. When I saw her play, it was on rubber backed felt with dead rails and she was pounding racks in. I can't imagine the catastrophe of that semi-soft break of most the women of today under those conditions. Jean played like a man. A top playing man.
 
jay helfert said:
So on the surface it would appear that Allison is the stronger player. But now for the intangibles. Jean had a way of rising to the occasion. She seemed able to elevate her game to the level of the competition. She played one speed against the women and another speed in men's events. .
I think this may be the best point that some might miss. Jean had a higher gear that rarely came out against the women. So, it's tough to compare when most people really hadn't seen it.

That being said, all of these comparisons are like comparing Martina Navratilova vs. Venus Williams, or Rod Laver vs. Roger Federer. Two different eras, different competition, different depth of field, different equipment.

For those who haven't read it, here's Robin Bell/Dodson take, while Allison was dominating:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.sport.billiard/msg/bf96e1dbaa44815c?dmode=source

And I'm sure many people have discussed this with Jean. I'm lucky to have had the opportunity once in my life.

Fred
 
They both play very well....each of them have be stand outs in their era. I don't believe you could ever say which was better than the other. How can you say that one is the best to ever play the game? They never competed against each other. I say they were the best to ever play the game in their era...not alltime.
 
It seems like a very fundamental part of the arguement is missing. I have never seen Jean play. This is the first I have heard the name. But in all the discussion everyone keeps referring to Allisons 50 WPBA wins. What about all the world snooker titles? She dominated the world of snooker for years before she ever thought of playing pool. Jean started with pool at a young age and started, like was posted, playing in majors at as early as 11. Now lets put things in perspective, what if Allison would have left snooker earlier and entered into the WPBA perhaps 5 to 10 years earlier? What then? How many events could that have given her?

I am not going to say one is better than another. I just don't know. But to be fair to Allison let's include the numerous world titles she won in the part of the sport she originated. Looking at the fact as well that she had to transition into pool before she could truly dominate should be included as well.

Just my 2 cents.
 
Every post I've read so far in this thread has been well thought out and well written. You can tell by reading this thread that the ones who've reponded know something about pool and it's champions. Good job!

My opinion is that Jean Balukas stood out in her sport when she had to contend with and win against the same 30-50 women she played against. Allison has stood out in her day by contending with and winning against several hundred women players, most of whom are far better players than those in Jean's era.

Balukas, as mentioned before, usually had less than 30 women to beat to win a championship. She had to beat Loree Jon Ogonowski (Jones), Robin Bell, Ewa Mataya (Laurence), Belinda Campos (Beardon), Lori Shampo, Vicki Frechen, Billie Billings, Gerri Titicomb and Mary Kenniston. Those were the BIG names in that era. All very good players, but other than Robin Bell, Ewa & Loro Jon, who really stands out?

Fisher has to contend against Karen Corr, Jeanette Lee, Ga Yuong Kim, Monica Webb, Kelly Fisher, Gerda Hofstatter, Vivian Villareal, Kely Fisher,
Xiaoting Pan and many others, ALL of whom are threats to actually win major championships. Plus, after this group, she still had the rest of the field, which, by the way, has gotten better and more knowledgable over the years.

Balukas played a game that style wise, was how the men played. Fisher's style is so fundamentally sound that she is able to dominate as she has for such a long period. No matter how good the competition has gotten, she's still winning tournaments.

Bottom line, if Jean Balukas was somehow dropped into this era, she would do very well. Who doubts if this Allison Fisher was dropped back an era that she would not also dominate? Of these two greats, my first pick is AF.
 
Jean was certainly the best in the world in her time, however as has been stated, she had nowhere near the level of competition in both play and number of top players to deal with. The play on the womens tour has improved unbelievably over the last 15 years, the bar is much much higher, and yet, Allison has taken on all comers and prevailed. I'm sure Jean would be a champion in modern times, but it cannot be said for sure if she would stay on top as consistantly as Allison has.
 
Now this is a fun topic! I have watched, studied and analyzed Allison's style for years. She is incredibly consistent. I have never seen Jean play. It would certainly be a great match up with the contrasting styles.

Is there any video of Jean Balukas playing? It would be a shame if there isn't. :(
 
The problem

sjm said:
Lori lost her battle with cancer a few years ago. It was a very sad day in women's pool.

I know this sounds wrong, but the problem with just being a gambler is that there isnt any video of them.

My mother played softball for years, and was amazing. Now, I am 43, my daughters are 19 and 17 and there isnt a video of my mother playing softball, just memories. Videos today are so commonplace that we take for granted.

I would love to see videos (if available) of Jean or Lori.

Ken
 
Ken_4fun said:
I know this sounds wrong, but the problem with just being a gambler is that there isnt any video of them.

My mother played softball for years, and was amazing. Now, I am 43, my daughters are 19 and 17 and there isnt a video of my mother playing softball, just memories. Videos today are so commonplace that we take for granted.

I would love to see videos (if available) of Jean or Lori.

Ken

I don't know of any videos of jean on the net, but I would think ESPN has some of Jean. Johnnyt
 
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cuechick said:
Very interesting Jay, great perspective. I am just curious, I think I have heard Lori talked about once before on this forum. Whatever happened to her?

She had a lifetime battle with drugs. Damage was done to her internal organs and she passed away about five or six years ago. She was still in her 40's when she died.
 
That would be great if ESPN showed an old JB match. They probably don't care what they show since it is more or less a space filler to them. Maybe sending in a few emails might help. ;)
 
sjm said:
I'd reckon that Gloria Walker was, more or less, on a par with Lori Shampo in the late 1970's, though Lori went on to be the slightly better of the two in the early 1980's.

Sorry, Gloria should have been included on my list of Jean's challengers. Although I don't think she played Lori's speed of 9-Ball. Closer to Ewa or Loree Jon.
 
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