Allison Fisher or Jean Balukas?

[mark8950]

jean balukas

well in the 70's myself and dick lane played a lot of straight pool and dick's girl friend played jean and was one of the few women to ever beat her! for my money jean was at least the 6 better than allison. with the high speed cloth on the table now u dont have to have much stroke like allison jean had a great stroke and was light years aheade of allison. thanks sparky

 

[punter]

well in the 70's myself and dick lane played a lot of straight pool and dick's girl friend played jean and was one of the few women to ever beat her! for my money jean was at least the 6 better than allison. with the high speed cloth on the table now u dont have to have much stroke like allison jean had a great stroke and was light years aheade of allison. thanks sparky

Good point about the cloth. Years ago when the fast cloth was coming into use, I was talking with Smokey Bartlett about this and he remarked that it made the game easier and lessen the importance of a good stroke. By the way Sparky are you from Wichita Falls?

 

[tom haney]

I can't help remembering a match on t.v. years ago between
Jean & Minnesota Fats. Fats was being himself & he had
Balukas so rattled she couldn't make a ball. Fats won rather
handily. Only person I ever saw him beat on t.v.
I can't imagine Fischer folding like that.

 

[sjm]

well in the 70's myself and dick lane played a lot of straight pool and dick's girl friend played jean and was one of the few women to ever beat her! for my money jean was at least the 6 better than allison. with the high speed cloth on the table now u dont have to have much stroke like allison jean had a great stroke and was light years aheade of allison. thanks sparky

Though many of Jean's 14.1 titles were won in the 1970's, the 1970's are not relevant to the 9-ball discussion. Most of Jean's nine ball titles were won in the years 1984-88, after the switch to the faster cloth had taken place.

Actually, I'm not so sure that the slower cloth wouldn't favor Allison. While it's true that some of the bigger strokes are tougher to come by on the slow cloth, giving Jean a minor advantage, the biggest difference on slow cloth is that the balls have to be hit harder on a lot of the standard position shots. As the best ball pocketer in the history of women's pool, this would be less of an issue for Allison than Jean.

 

[cuechick]

I've been shaking my head ever since I saw this statement. I spoke to a room owner today who had never heard of Jean, either. The same guy who never heard of Buddy Hall. Ever heard of Geraldine Titcomb, Dorothy Wise, Madelyn Whitlow, Joe Balsis, Irving Crane, Jimmy Caras, Tom Jennings, Dallas West, Ralph Greenleaf, Willie Mosconi, I could go on and on. It's sad that so many of today's players know nothing of the game's history and\or great\legendary players. When I started playing, I got into it and find it hard to understand how people today can't be bothered with it. Sorry for the rant.

I understand your frustration, I once spoke to a group of photo journalism majors and asked them if they had heard of Richard Avedon, Irving Penn and a few other noted photographers. I just got some blank stares. I then asked if they had heard of Picaso? Which of course they had. I said if I was in room full of Fine Art majors, wouldn't it be odd if they did not know who he was? I think I made my point....Knowing the history of your passion, is a huge key to understanding the game (or the art) in my opinion.

 

[jay helfert]

Though many of Jean's 14.1 titles were won in the 1970's, the 1970's are not relevant to the 9-ball discussion. Most of Jean's nine ball titles were won in the years 1984-88, after the switch to the faster cloth had taken place.

Actually, I'm not so sure that the slower cloth wouldn't favor Allison. While it's true that some of the bigger strokes are tougher to come by on the slow cloth, giving Jean a minor advantage, the biggest difference on slow cloth is that the balls have to be hit harder on a lot of the standard position shots. As the best ball pocketer in the history of women's pool, this would be less of an issue for Allison than Jean.

I have to differ with you here S. There wasn't a big push to go to fast cloth (Simoniz) until the early 90's. It happened during the Mackey era when he made a deal with Simoniz to be a sponsor on the Men's pro tour. It put a few more bucks in his "carpet bagging" pockets.

 

[Ron Cook]

Jean I don't believe could keep up with Allison or Jeanette Lee. I have a video of the Blackwidow beating Allison
7 to 0. Allison never made a ball. Jeanette ran like 5 or 6 racks in the match and a couple of safes. Flawless match. I realize Allison is a better player over the Blackwidow but today's players are very capable of stinging several racks together like Jeanette Lee did over Allison and I don't think Jean could run 6 racks of 9 ball but I may be wrong.

Did Jean play 9 ball if so how many racks did she run? Is there anyone out there that might know some of her stats other than winning tournaments?

Playing safe has advanced over the years and today's defense would eat Jean alive. If she was playing with today's players I am sure her game would be better, but like other players of later years like Mike Segel their talent cannot run with the youth of today or the stead fastness of someone like Efren who never gave up the game. It seems like any come back of a player lacts the strength of youth and that player seldom rises to the glory of ealier years.

Hopefully, someday someone in their 70's or 80's will rise to the occasion and show the world that real talent and glory is not beyond reach and is only limited by our dreams and only as far away as we believe in ourselves to do something no one else has done.

Who will be that lucky guy or girl to show history we can do anything we believe. That will be a day where true character wins and history will be re-written by those who believe in their dream and their God given talent will then triumph over the doubt that pulls our game apart.

 

[CrownCityCorey]

Jean I don't believe could keep up with Allison or Jeanette Lee. I have a video of the Blackwidow beating Allison 7 to 0. Allison never made a ball. Jeanette ran like 5 or 6 racks in the match and a couple of safes. Flawless match.

Did Jean play 9 ball if so how many racks did she run? Is there anyone out there that might know some of her stats other than winning tournaments?

Playing safe has advanced over the years and todays defense would eat Jean alive.

Though Jeanette is a fine player with all around ability, she is no where near the class of player that Jean was or Allison is.

 

[catscradle]

If you ask ten people born from the 1940's to 1960's and ten younger guys from the 1970' to now, almost to the man the older will say Joe Louis was better than Ali, Ruth was better than Hank or Bonds, and Jean was better than Allision. Same with the younger saying the players and boxers are better now then in the past. Johnnyt

The bottom line is cross generation comparision is meaningless. Today's players have had better food (read bovine growth hormone, lol), living conditions, training techniques (did Ruth even train?), time to dedicate to their sport, etc. There really can be no comparision made; though not comparing apples and oranges, it is comparing "delicious apples" and "macintosh apples".

Jean had MUCH softer women's competition than Alison does, and Alison doesn't play the men. So what basis is there to compare them on.

 

[sjm]

I have to differ with you here S. There wasn't a big push to go to fast cloth (Simoniz) until the early 90's. It happened during the Mackey era when he made a deal with Simoniz to be a sponsor on the Men's pro tour. It put a few more bucks in his "carpet bagging" pockets.

Well, I'll have to defer to you on this one, Jay, as I attended just a few women's nine ball events in the 1980's, but I recall that the cloth at the 1988 Women's US Open played pretty fast.

Still, I'm far more interested in your view on whehter Allison or Jean is the one favored by the slower conditions. I believe that Allison's ball pocketing edge is a huge advantage on slow cloth, as there are so many more hard hits of the cue ball, which makes the pockets play a little tighter. Jean's bigger stroke is an advantage, but the shots in which Jean would have a significant edge over Allison (who has a bigger stroke than many realize) would be few and far between.

I think that slow cloth would increase, not decrease, the advantage already enjoyed by the ball-pocketing machines that women's snooker has brought to the WPBA, because they pocket so ccurately even at high speed.

What's your view? Others encouraged to chime in, too.

 

[sjm]

Playing safe has advanced over the years and todays defense would eat Jean alive.

I'm inclined to agree, Ron, and yet, I have to reckon that if she cared to, Jean could become an outstanding defensive player. By the same token, the kicking is much stronger today than back then, and I don't feel that Jean, in her prime, kicked as well as today's best.

 

[CrownCityCorey]

Well, I'll have to defer to you on this one, Jay, as I attended just a few women's nine ball events in the 1980's, but I recall that the cloth at the 1988 Women's US Open played pretty fast.

Still, I'm far more interested in your view on whehter Allison or Jean is the one favored by the slower conditions. I believe that Allison's ball pocketing edge is a huge advantage on slow cloth, as there are so many more hard hits of the cue ball, which makes the pockets play a little tighter. Jean's bigger stroke is an advantage, but the shots in which Jean would have a significant edge over Allison (who has a bigger stroke than many realize) would be few and far between.

I think that slow cloth would increase, not decrease, the advantage already enjoyed by the ball-pocketing machines that women's snooker has brought to the WPBA, because they pocket so ccurately even at high speed.

What's your view? Others encouraged to chime in, too.

I gotta chime in, slower cloth would be greatly to Jean's advantage because of the need for a bigger break, and bigger stroke. IMO Jean could pocket the ball at least on par with Allison and the other 2 things I just mentioned put her over the top.

Personally, I have still not gotten used to faster Simonis cloth (grew up on Stevens) and I tend to over hit things (especially the break). I remeber playing on the slow stuff from the mid-80's through the early 90's (the primary stages of my stroke development).

 

[sjm]

IMO Jean could pocket the ball at least on par with Allison.

In my opinion, it's not even close. Allison Fisher is a significantly better pocketer than Jean ever was. The snooker players brought ball pocketing to a level never before seen in womne's pro pool.

 

[jimmy-leggs]

We all know that allison ruled snooker for so long,but does anyone know of any links or video's to see her play snooker?

 

[Williebetmore]

Though Jeanette is a fine player with all around ability, she is no where near the class of player that Jean was or Allison is.

CCC,
I'm with the previous poster. When she is healthy (which is almost never unfortunately) JL's game is more powerful and "full-featured" than Allison's. If she could practice 5 or 6 hours a day for a few weeks, I doubt she would fear either player. JMO.

P.S. - I WILL agree that her tournament performance since all the surgeries in the late 90's has definitely been below Allison and Karen (if you can't play more than 40 minutes without pain, it's hard to handle these tournaments). That is not the same as saying the "class" is not there.

 

[worriedbeef]

CCC,
I'm with the previous poster. When she is healthy (which is almost never unfortunately) JL's game is more powerful and "full-featured" than Allison's. If she could practice 5 or 6 hours a day for a few weeks, I doubt she would fear either player. JMO.

P.S. - I WILL agree that her tournament performance since all the surgeries in the late 90's has definitely been below Allison and Karen (if you can't play more than 40 minutes without pain, it's hard to handle these tournaments). That is not the same as saying the "class" is not there.

i would agree with this. she's a more 'pure' pool player and ability wise she's up there with allison if not better. difference is allison has delivered. but as willie said, it's one thing to have the ability and perhaps not quite achieve 100%, and another to not have the ability in the first place. jeanette doesn't fall into the second category i don't think.

 

[qfancier]

I thought you used to practice with Greenleaf.

Low blow foul. You're on one.....

 

[Ron Cook]

I realize Jean has won numerous pool tournaments. I have never seen her play but have only heard stories on how good she really was. Does anyone out there have numbers on 9 ball racks she ran or straight pool high runs? These numbers may give us some inside info on how well she really played for her competition in her era was not nearly as strong as today's players.

 

[jay helfert]

Jean I don't believe could keep up with Allison or Jeanette Lee. I have a video of the Blackwidow beating Allison
7 to 0. Allison never made a ball. Jeanette ran like 5 or 6 racks in the match and a couple of safes. Flawless match.

Did Jean play 9 ball if so how many racks did she run? Is there anyone out there that might know some of her stats other than winning tournaments?

Playing safe has advanced over the years and todays defense would eat Jean alive. If she was playing with today's players I am sure her game would be better, but like other players of later years like Mike Segal their talent cannot run with the youth of today or the stead fastness of someone like Efren who never gave up the game. It seems like any come back of a player lacts the strength of youth and that player seldom rises to the glory of ealier years.

Hopefully, someday someone in their 70's or 80's will rise to the occasion and show the world that real talent and glory is not beyond reach and is only limited by our dreams and only as far away as we believe in ourselves to do something no one else has done.

Who will be that lucky guy or girl to show history we can do anything we believe. That will be a day where true character wins and history will be re-written by those who believe in their dream and their God given talent will triumph over doubt.

Yeah, too bad the old timers can't hang with the youngsters. That's why Buddy was still WINNING tournaments well into his late 50's. And Nick Varner kept right on kicking ass and taking names until he got seriously ill. And who can old man Hopkins beat anyway, besides Dennis Hatch and Rob Saez most recently.

And poor Bob Vanover had to be barred from playing the BCA Masters because no one could beat him when he was 65! Then there's the strange case of Billy Incardona who keeps wanting to bet the ranch against champions half his age. What's wrong with this guy? Why doesn't anyone tell him that he's a dinosaur, and that these new "players" are far superior to his generation.

Howard Vickery still contends quite well at 60+. Ray Martin remains a threat at close to 70! And he was more than a threat up till a few years ago. He was finishing top four on a regular basis in the super tough Florida events. And that stupid Parica, he's close to 60 also. Why doesn't he retire already? He can't beat anybody right?

I pity poor old Efren since he is well past 50, and everyone knows he is way over the hill. Even old man Scotty Townsend should know better than to gamble with young guns like Kiamco. I'm sure there are many more old fogies that have no business playing against this new generation of "better" players. I just wish someone would tell them. Maybe we should start a Help Line for old worn out pool players.

 

[jay helfert]

Though Jeanette is a fine player with all around ability, she is no where near the class of player that Jean was or Allison is.

She sure can beat up on guys though.