Alternate vs Winner Break on WPBA Tour?

Johnnyt

Johnnyt

Burn all jump cues
Silver Member
While I was watching the WPBA Open streaming from the HardRock Casino in Florida a question came up about why the winner break was changed to alternate break on the WPBA Tour? In the booth were Dawn Hopkins and Mike H.

Anyhow I said it was changed to slow Allison Fisher and Karen Corr down at the time because the were winning just about all the tournaments. Dawn said it wasn't that, that the players voted the alternate break voted in. (I would think it would be top 15 for winner break and bottom 30 or so voting for alternate break.) But then Dawn said that a lot of the players didn't think it was fair that someone could win the lag and run the set out. I didn't respond to that in chat but when was the last time someone ran a 7 or 9 game set out, if ever on the tour, and when was the last time they had a vote on changing it? I can't ever recall a set run out and I have followed the tour for about 7 years now. Johnnyt
 
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Let's note in advance that to consider this matter intelligently requires a mix of fact, speculation and conjecture, but I'll take my best shot.

Though it was a popular fiction of the time, I also don't think that the switch to alternate break had anything to do with trying to slow down Allison and Karen. The real reason that many of the women came to think that nine ball was unfair without alternate break was that the men, with whom many of them practiced, had come to feel that way.

The men came to feel this way very early in this decade, when use of the Sardo rack made it, in the eyes of many, way too easy to make the wing ball, and two matches explain, more than any others, why they came to hate winner breaks. Anyone who attended either will remember them well.

2000 BCA Open: Semifinal Archer vs Immonen
Archer got to the hill before Immonen even shot, and in the final rack, Immonen shot but never attemtped to pocket a ball, leading to a 7-0 whitewashing. It's the only pro level tournament match I've ever seen in which one of the players never attempted to pocket a ball. I chatted with Mika just after the match and he was geniuniely disgusted, feeling he'd been to denied a chance to win by the rack itself. It was the last BCA Open to use winner breaks.

2001 US Open
This one was another freaky one, and the victim was, once again, Mika Immonen. Corey Deuel won the final in a 13-0 shutout, using his break to control the match. He didn't break and run all the racks, but by making a ball every time with his soft break, he usually gained control of the table. It was another match in which the break itself made the playing field seem unfair. Of course, the latter part of the decade would be much, much kinder to Immonen at the US Open!

These two historic matches probably did more to popularize the call for alternate break in men's pool, and sure enough, alternate break (and/or use of the break box) went into greater and greater use in the aftermath of these two matches, which many thought to have been critical samplings of the problems that can come with winner breaks.

So What About the Women?
It should be noted that Karen Corr, just like Corey Deuel, developed and mastered a very effective soft break with the Sardo rack and Karen won some of her WPBA matches with the same kind of suffocating style that Deuel had been successful with. While the women had, in my opinion, already been advised by their male pro friends, to consider alternate break, Karen's success with the soft break earlier in this decade may have been the clincher. Even after the change to alternate break, Allison and Karen conitnued to win lots of titles. More recently, it is clear that alternate break has not slowed down the good breakers on the WPBA. Two of the best five breaks on tour today belong to Ga Young Kim and Jasmin Ouschan, who have combned to win the last five tour events.

In WPBA Play
If you're looking for the change that put and end to Allison and Karen meeting in, what seemed like, every final in the middle part of this decade, look no further than the change from true double elimination (up to the final match) to double elimination down to sixteen, followed by a redraw and single elimination for the last sixteen. The result was some new faces in the TV matches.

In Conclusion
I don't think that alternate break makes much difference in WPBA play. Ga Young, Jasmin and Xiaoting were the three best in 2009 and now hold the top three spots in the rankings, and I believe this would have been the case with or without alternate break.

That is my perspective, anyway.
 
I was watching the stream at the time.

I'm almost positive that the alternate break format came about after SARDO was introduced, like in 2001.

With that rack, the corner ball was GUARANTEED to go in. There were actually quite a few matches where some of the top women, figured out that you didn't have to crush the balls, but instead just pop them at medium speed, and the corner ball would fly in, and you'd have a wide open table.
If you controlled the cue ball, you were golden.

Much in the way people were astonished at Donnie's break stats against Shane, it was the same thing.

It wasn't a gaff that someone figured out on a certain table to exploit, but was in fact, present on EVERY table that the SARDO was on.

There were several things tried as a result.
That's why you have some mens and womens tournaments change the actual position of the rack, so that the 9 was on the spot, instead of the 1, to try and deal with people having such an easy time making a ball on the break, which in turn led to the discovery of the soft SOFT break.

After that whole racking of the 9 ball on the spot garbage died, i think that's why the majority of tournaments changed over to alternate break format during that time, so no match would be a runaway.

It can be argued that it was changed for Allison and Karen, but that's not the case. If anything, i think that REDRAW at the final 16 was implemented to stop the hammerlock that Allison and Karen had. But seeing that the whole caliber of the WPBA has gone through the roof, i think they should abandon this format and go back to the way it was so that people aren't getting robbed by losing in the final 16 (first loss) to someone that lost before the final 16, and getting put out of the tournament.

Honestly, i think that now that SARDO is gone. And all the obvious racking issues that you see on the streams, (back to the good old days), it's not the advantage that it once was.

Personally, i think all formats should go back to winner breaks, and people need to start practicing the lag more.
 
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sjm - that was an excellent synopsis. I think pro pool has come to the point where it's going to stub it's toes as long it's playing 9 ball.
I'd like to see them go to 10 ball, winner breaks - and let that go until it's proved there needs to be another tweak. The nature of breaking 10 ball, combined with winner breaks, would imo bring some real excitement back.
 
I believe rotate break is a more fair way to play, so that each opponent has a chance to get to the table.

There are no other sports/games where each opponent does not get an equal opportunity.

For example, what if only the winner got to serve in tennis? What if a baseball game one team never got to pitch? yes, I know thats drastic.. my point is, each player should have a chance to play. Winning the lag would give you the advantage to shoot first and possibly start your opponent off "in a hole".

Yes, winner breaks can be exciting because fans get to watch players string racks together. But at the highest skill level, its not really fair for both players. If you gave each player the same opportunity to break and run, then it would be more fair. for example, players would break and run until they miss, and then the other player has to out-do the first. So, if player 1 breaks and run 2 racks and then gets to the 5 ball - thats 9+9+5= 23 balls. Now, his opponent has to break and run more than 23 balls to win ...

Anyway, I could explain more, but I gotta get back to work :)
 
There IS a sport that shows why alternate is better.........basketball.
In ANY organized amatuer or professional basketball a team scores and the opponent team then takes the ball in and attempts a counter score. In "make-it-take half court playground basketball" you score and then proceed to take the ball in again. There are MAJOR blowouts all the time in this form of basketball. Would professional basketball be changed drastically by using the "make-it-take it" format? Answer is NO, the same teams would still win. HOWEVER, the number of blowouts would likely cause fans to stop attending games.:wink:

Winner breaks is and should always be regulated to pool gambling and kept out of organized tournament play where there is an expectation of fairness.

As to the unfairness of the sweet sixteen format I agree they should change. While true double elimination seems fair, I would argue all tournaments should be single elimination as you can't get much "fairer" than that. Others (including most WPBAers) may and probably do disagree this view however.:cool:

As to racking problems in 9-ball. Yup! Probably why 10-ball could replace 9.......uh at least until the rack masters get the mechanics for rigging the 10-ball rack.:rolleyes: lol
 
I used to pose a riddle to friends.... what is the ONE game/sport where if you're good enough, your opponent never gets to play... Most people never got it and the Alternating break made it obsolete :D
 
I was also watching/listening to the stream at that time, and I have to say that I agree with the alternating break. Watch some men's tournaments and you'll see people sit in their chairs for 3-5 racks at a time - and in a race to 7 (or even 9) that's REALLY diminishing any chance they might have. Well, sjm already noted some of the historic matches; which are rare - but proves it does and can happen.

I still think it's the fairest way to have a tournament.
 
Was it that the Sardo gave such a perfect rack each time or was there an unusual sardo advantage?
 
I think that one of the reasons i am still to this day, disgusted with the alternate break format is cause it's just so damn boring. No real momentum swings, no heating up, no great blistering comebacks.

There is no catching of gears.
Any momentum is minimal at best.
It effectively killed any of the great momentum players.
Once the alternate break came out, a lot of these guys couldn't win anything.

Where, back in the day, you could find your game, get settled into a grove, figure out the break and just TAKE THE F OFF!!!

To me, winner breaks was way more exciting then any other form of rotation pool.

I also happen to think that rolls even out more in winner breaks, and that a serious roll in alternate break can be that much more difficult to overcome.


Winner breaks definitely put more pressure on people. Let me tell you, nothing wakes you up quicker, then being glued to your chair and getting pounded.

I still think there should be some sort of reform.
Make it winner breaks and put a cap on it. A maximum number of racks that can be run in a row off your break.

So lets see, in a race to 9, you could make the cap 3 racks, so that you can't shellac your opponent in one inning.

Everyone is guaranteed to get their chance at the table, while providing players with the tools to utilize their skills to maximize the potential number of games won. You give the players who are capable of heating up, a chance to do so.

So if there were to be a blowout, AT BEST, it would be a minimum of 3 innings.

Player A breaks and runs a 3, and give the break over to player B. at 3-0.
Player B breaks dry and player A runs out to 4-0.
Player A then breaks and runs a 3 and turns over the break to player B at 7-0.
Player B breaks dry and player A runs out to 8-0
Player A then breaks and runs out the final rack for the win, 9-0.

Player B can't complain that they didn't get their chances, and if they do, tell them to go practice their break.

Otherwise, just make it 10 ball and make it winner breaks.
 
Melissa Herndon said:
Was that directed at me? Because I KNOW that I need the 7-out in lagging...but I just can't seem to figure it out!

M
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Join the club.
I suck at lagging as well.

But that's ok, if people adopt that rule that was out for the JOSS tournament where lagging (skill contest) was illegal, and the break would be determined by a coin flip instead (luck), soon players all over the world won't have to worry about their lagging skills because that skill will have also become obsolete.
 
Burtus said:
Was it that the Sardo gave such a perfect rack each time or was there an unusual sardo advantage?
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IMO, Sardo simply gives as perfect a rack as possible and consequently once a player found the sweet spot on the break for that table with that day's conditions - it was totally predictable.

The Magic Ball Rack seems to offer similar consistency.

Why did the Sardo go the way of the Do Do? Because it was too good or because it was too bulky?
 
sjm said:
Let's note in advance that to consider this matter intelligently requires a mix of fact, speculation and conjecture, but I'll take my best shot.

Though it was a popular fiction of the time, I also don't think that the switch to alternate break had anything to do with trying to slow down Allison and Karen. The real reason that many of the women came to think that nine ball was unfair without alternate break was that the men, with whom many of them practiced, had come to feel that way.

The men came to feel this way very early in this decade, when use of the Sardo rack made it, in the eyes of many, way too easy to make the wing ball, and two matches explain, more than any others, why they came to hate winner breaks. Anyone who attended either will remember them well.

2000 BCA Open: Semifinal Archer vs Immonen
Archer got to the hill before Immonen even shot, and in the final rack, Immonen shot but never attemtped to pocket a ball, leading to a 7-0 whitewashing. It's the only pro level tournament match I've ever seen in which one of the players never attempted to pocket a ball. I chatted with Mika just after the match and he was geniuniely disgusted, feeling he'd been to denied a chance to win by the rack itself. It was the last BCA Open to use winner breaks.

2001 US Open
This one was another freaky one, and the victim was, once again, Mika Immonen. Corey Deuel won the final in a 13-0 shutout, using his break to control the match. He didn't break and run all the racks, but by making a ball every time with his soft break, he usually gained control of the table. It was another match in which the break itself made the playing field seem unfair. Of course, the latter part of the decade would be much, much kinder to Immonen at the US Open!

These two historic matches probably did more to popularize the call for alternate break in men's pool, and sure enough, alternate break (and/or use of the break box) went into greater and greater use in the aftermath of these two matches, which many thought to have been critical samplings of the problems that can come with winner breaks.

So What About the Women?
It should be noted that Karen Corr, just like Corey Deuel, developed and mastered a very effective soft break with the Sardo rack and Karen won some of her WPBA matches with the same kind of suffocating style that Deuel had been successful with. While the women had, in my opinion, already been advised by their male pro friends, to consider alternate break, Karen's success with the soft break earlier in this decade may have been the clincher. Even after the change to alternate break, Allison and Karen conitnued to win lots of titles. More recently, it is clear that alternate break has not slowed down the good breakers on the WPBA. Two of the best five breaks on tour today belong to Ga Young Kim and Jasmin Ouschan, who have combned to win the last five tour events.

In WPBA Play
If you're looking for the change that put and end to Allison and Karen meeting in, what seemed like, every final in the middle part of this decade, look no further than the change from true double elimination (up to the final match) to double elimination down to sixteen, followed by a redraw and single elimination for the last sixteen. The result was some new faces in the TV matches.

In Conclusion
I don't think that alternate break makes much difference in WPBA play. Ga Young, Jasmin and Xiaoting were the three best in 2009 and now hold the top three spots in the rankings, and I believe this would have been the case with or without alternate break.

That is my perspective, anyway.
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SJM,
Your pocket billiard historian skills have produced a very accurate account of some key moments in major matches where a player's break actually dominated the contest. Excellent memory!

The only thing I would like to add is I prefer to watch a "winner's break" format because the alternate break format, in my opinion, takes away some of the excitement in a match once a player gets several racks ahead.
I like to see players string racks, get ahead of their opponant and then, when the opponant does return to the table, there is still tension in the match because the incoming player now has "to do or die".

In an alternate break format, once someone gets several racks ahead, it's very difficult for the trailing player to catch up. Said another way, I like the momentum swings in tight matches. In alternate break formats, we often know who's going to win the match before it ever concludes.

Both formats have definite good and bad points. I just feel there is more excitement in the "winner breaks" format.
 
Terry Ardeno said:
SJM,
Your pocket billiard historian skills have produced a very accurate account of some key moments in major matches where a player's break actually dominated the contest. Excellent memory!

The only thing I would like to add is I prefer to watch a "winner's break" format because the alternate break format, in my opinion, takes away some of the excitement in a match once a player gets several racks ahead.
I like to see players string racks, get ahead of their opponant and then, when the opponant does return to the table, there is still tension in the match because the incoming player now has "to do or die".

In an alternate break format, once someone gets several racks ahead, it's very difficult for the trailing player to catch up. Said another way, I like the momentum swings in tight matches. In alternate break formats, we often know who's going to win the match before it ever concludes.

Both formats have definite good and bad points. I just feel there is more excitement in the "winner breaks" format.
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I agree with you, but don't forget the legendary match between Allen Hopkins and Efren Reyes, which Efren trailed 10-1 (or something) and won 11-10. Alternate break.

Edit:
http://www.billiardpulse.com/2006/05/souquet-and-ouschan-claim-top-spots-in.html
 
Johnnyt said:
While I was watching the WPBA Open streaming from the HardRock Casino in Florida a question came up about why the winner break was changed to alternate break on the WPBA Tour? In the booth were Dawn Hopkins and Mike H.

Anyhow I said it was changed to slow Allison Fisher and Karen Corr down at the time because the were winning just about all the tournaments. Dawn said it wasn't that, that the players voted the alternate break voted in. (I would think it would be top 15 for winner break and bottom 30 or so voting for alternate break.) But then Dawn said that a lot of the players didn't think it was fair that someone could win the lag and run the set out. I didn't respond to that in chat but when was the last time someone ran a 7 or 9 game set out, if ever on the tour, and when was the last time they had a vote on changing it? I can't ever recall a set run out and I have followed the tour for about 7 years now. Johnnyt
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Of course, if you don't get to play then what would you vote for? lol. I think winner breaks rewards good play and should be the standard for real tournaments. I can't believe it came to a vote !!
 
Majic said:
Of course, if you don't get to play then what would you vote for? lol. I think winner breaks rewards good play and should be the standard for real tournaments. I can't believe it came to a vote !!
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EXACTLY!!!
That's like the guys who whine like a bunch of sissies, who never played good enough to put packages together, who want alternate breaks to stop themselves from getting repeatedly pounded on.

Instead of working HARDER to improve their break/game so that when given a chance, they might be able to destroy someone themselves.

NOOOOOOOO, lets not try harder and better our game, lets just change the format so we don't have to.:rolleyes:
 
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