Another post I turned into a thread...
- Thread starter Fatboy
- Start date
To me, it's what you say, not how you say it that's important. I've published a book and I still write broken english.
As far as the game goes. I can see the US having trouble putting a formitable Mosconi Cup team together in years to come. There are very few young players coming into our game.
The major problem of course is, MONEY. First of all. How can you justify all the work it takes to become a great player and then the work it takes to beat a lot of other great players, when the rewards for doing these things, may or may not pay your bills.
It doesn't add up!
I worked at a job for thirty nine years. I didn't kill myself and the guarantee of a pay check made my life a lot more livable.
In the early eighties, I was asked, "Why don't you turn pro?" I had cashed in every Pro event I played in at that time.
I told the person asking the question, "I like to eat." What I didn't tell them was I made more money that year, working on my job, than the top money winner on the Pro Tour.
Let's see. Go to my easy job or try to beat the best players in the world, for less money. I think you know the answer.
I know there are people out there trying to help the game but when they think $20,000 added is a lot of money, I'M SORRY, IT JUST ISN'T.
Beating the best players in the world and walking out with $40,000. In this day and age is an insult.
I have a lot of ideas that I think could help bring money into the game. I wrote a book I though could become a movie.
Much like all the posts in this forum. It's my own indivual opion. Until we come together, I don't really see anything good happening in the game. Let's hope I'm wrong.
____________________________________
http://tommcgonaglerightoncue.com
As far as the game goes. I can see the US having trouble putting a formitable Mosconi Cup team together in years to come. There are very few young players coming into our game.
The major problem of course is, MONEY. First of all. How can you justify all the work it takes to become a great player and then the work it takes to beat a lot of other great players, when the rewards for doing these things, may or may not pay your bills.
It doesn't add up!
I worked at a job for thirty nine years. I didn't kill myself and the guarantee of a pay check made my life a lot more livable.
In the early eighties, I was asked, "Why don't you turn pro?" I had cashed in every Pro event I played in at that time.
I told the person asking the question, "I like to eat." What I didn't tell them was I made more money that year, working on my job, than the top money winner on the Pro Tour.
Let's see. Go to my easy job or try to beat the best players in the world, for less money. I think you know the answer.
I know there are people out there trying to help the game but when they think $20,000 added is a lot of money, I'M SORRY, IT JUST ISN'T.
Beating the best players in the world and walking out with $40,000. In this day and age is an insult.
I have a lot of ideas that I think could help bring money into the game. I wrote a book I though could become a movie.
Much like all the posts in this forum. It's my own indivual opion. Until we come together, I don't really see anything good happening in the game. Let's hope I'm wrong.
____________________________________
http://tommcgonaglerightoncue.com
Hi Eric...I don't know how you wrote before but you clearly get your point across and in a fairly eloquent way. I get what you're saying about the action these days and it's definitely not the same as it used to be. I was usually a rail bird for the big matches and really liked seeing people throw down whether it was for money or the final rounds of a tourney or even just a good practice match between some of the better players. I used to watch with the thought in mind that I would take on the best on the main table someday and I was learning from what they did on that table. Over time I did have the opportunity to do that in tournaments and love this sport for that reason alone. I was never a hardcore gambler myself although I did gamble a little but always followed the adage about not putting up the rent money which usually I didn't have much beyond anyway so that precluded me from really taking part in big action. When I started playing in the early 90's I remember that more people would actually stay to see how local tournaments would end and there was some excitement in watching those matches as well as some side action. The places I used to play in had stands with chairs, chess tables and food services to encourage people to watch longer. You don't see very many places with stands being setup anymore. I wonder if that's due to the lack of interest in watching pool or just owners trying to fit more tables to hopefully drain some more table time. Most players these days only seem interested in what's going on when they are playing and then head home or to rent their own practice table shortly after getting cut from a tournament or after finishing their beer driven league night games. As you said there's more of a rise in instant gratification with a mass reduced attention span for anything outside ones own play. I also agree that a sense of entitlement is on the rise in our society due to the everyone is a winner for participating campaigns we've seen. I think everyone can have a shot at being a winner for participating is more the mentality that makes pool great. It would be nice if those campaigns came with a nice helping of, you can still lose and feel valuable for trying as well as a side of if at first you don't succeed try, try again. I think that in order to get more people interested in the action and in betting on it there almost has to be a setup that fits that modernly created shortened and egocentric attention span. Sadly it would have to be something like a twitter feed or an easily accessible informative ticker phone application showing what is going on with optional video and instant betting options. Sadly no one seems to want to go back to the old days of actually sitting and watching talented players fight it out other than hardcore pool fans which there seems to be a lot less of. Other than on AZ where people are from everywhere, I haven't found a large crowd of people into pool the way people were 20 years ago and 20 years ago I was hearing the same thing I'm saying now. I really hope we can find a way to reverse this trend and to bring all aspects of pool back with some reverence for the days of old and some modern significance. Maybe the problem is a socio-economic one in that these days having a heavy gambling pool hall in your neighborhood is about as welcome as having the smoking bans here lifted or having an OTB, pawn shop or bingo hall open up as your neighbor, unless you are in a few select states where it's the norm, otherwise that denotes you being on the wrong side of the tracks and no one wants their home value to fall.
For me it was always been about the feel of the game, the competition, the history, it's champions, the coolness of the wild west saloon feel when you enter the hall, everyone noticing you enter with a cue then starting to size you up. I look at pool as much more than a sport but as a social club with it's own rules of respect based on your combined level of skill, love of the game and strength of your character. I don't think that's the perception most players have today but it would be great if we could revive that.
For me it was always been about the feel of the game, the competition, the history, it's champions, the coolness of the wild west saloon feel when you enter the hall, everyone noticing you enter with a cue then starting to size you up. I look at pool as much more than a sport but as a social club with it's own rules of respect based on your combined level of skill, love of the game and strength of your character. I don't think that's the perception most players have today but it would be great if we could revive that.
Good morning amigo.....wish I could rep you, but I gotta wait....
Here are my thoughts:
1. Regarding watching pool.....even on ESPN, I usually watch for 10 minutes before I get disgusted.....I want to see action, I want to see great shots and people running the table....instead, it's 3 easy shots, players gets out of line, player plays a safety.....since when did a pro consider a bank shot "high risk"
I'd rather go the local hall and watch a couple of my buddies battle it out over a cheap game of 9-ball or 1 pocket...
2. Parents over the last 20+ years have been doing the PC dance, telling their kids they are special, they can do no wrong, and if other kids don't like them it's because the other kids are stupid....many younger adults today think that if something doesn't go their way, it's the system or a shortcoming of everyone else, instead of taking personal responsibility.....every pool player under 30 truly believes that if they had the time and money, they'd play like Johnny Archer...
3. Even in leagues, pool has changed....10 years ago, it was a run-out game of creativity and talent.....ie, it was fun.....these days, every banger and D player that runs 3 balls thinks that safety play is the way to win.....not only is it boring, they don't realize that they will never improve at that rate.....you have to stretch yourself to improve, you have to reach and challenge yourself....IMHO, safety play is killing the game.....a well-played rare safety is a thing of beauty, but it's way overused.....people at all levels are playing not to lose instead of playing to win....
4. I think someone already mentioned instant gratification.....quite frankly, hard work is out of style....why spend hours and days improving your pool game when you can play poker or dominate a video game within a day.....
5. Players like Gabe make the game great and are what is missing.....true sportsman who are humble in victory, and honorable in defeat.....like you posted, you see this most in older players.....(old man voice on) younger folks today like to whoop and hollar when they win, and when they lose it's not because they got beat but because they gave it away.....hell, in the last couple of years, I've even found myself making excuses for losing.....and when I realize my stupidity later, it makes me sick at myself :grin:
Anyway, I could go on, but I think these 5 are a good start.....
1. Pro's, make great shots.....get the audience back for us....pool is a run-out game, so run the damn table already
2. Yes, your kids are special, just like everyone elses kids.....let them know that if they want to set themselves apart, they have to work for it...
3. League players, stretch yourself and play to win....stop playing not to lose....go for it....
4. Work hard....nobody else is, so you already have an advantage....
5. Sportsmanship.....bring it back, all of us....
Here are my thoughts:
1. Regarding watching pool.....even on ESPN, I usually watch for 10 minutes before I get disgusted.....I want to see action, I want to see great shots and people running the table....instead, it's 3 easy shots, players gets out of line, player plays a safety.....since when did a pro consider a bank shot "high risk"
I'd rather go the local hall and watch a couple of my buddies battle it out over a cheap game of 9-ball or 1 pocket...2. Parents over the last 20+ years have been doing the PC dance, telling their kids they are special, they can do no wrong, and if other kids don't like them it's because the other kids are stupid....many younger adults today think that if something doesn't go their way, it's the system or a shortcoming of everyone else, instead of taking personal responsibility.....every pool player under 30 truly believes that if they had the time and money, they'd play like Johnny Archer...
3. Even in leagues, pool has changed....10 years ago, it was a run-out game of creativity and talent.....ie, it was fun.....these days, every banger and D player that runs 3 balls thinks that safety play is the way to win.....not only is it boring, they don't realize that they will never improve at that rate.....you have to stretch yourself to improve, you have to reach and challenge yourself....IMHO, safety play is killing the game.....a well-played rare safety is a thing of beauty, but it's way overused.....people at all levels are playing not to lose instead of playing to win....
4. I think someone already mentioned instant gratification.....quite frankly, hard work is out of style....why spend hours and days improving your pool game when you can play poker or dominate a video game within a day.....
5. Players like Gabe make the game great and are what is missing.....true sportsman who are humble in victory, and honorable in defeat.....like you posted, you see this most in older players.....(old man voice on) younger folks today like to whoop and hollar when they win, and when they lose it's not because they got beat but because they gave it away.....hell, in the last couple of years, I've even found myself making excuses for losing.....and when I realize my stupidity later, it makes me sick at myself :grin:
Anyway, I could go on, but I think these 5 are a good start.....
1. Pro's, make great shots.....get the audience back for us....pool is a run-out game, so run the damn table already
2. Yes, your kids are special, just like everyone elses kids.....let them know that if they want to set themselves apart, they have to work for it...
3. League players, stretch yourself and play to win....stop playing not to lose....go for it....
4. Work hard....nobody else is, so you already have an advantage....
5. Sportsmanship.....bring it back, all of us....
I think you hit on it there. Young kids have much more options for entertainment than I did. I loved hanging out in the pool hall but I didn't have a computer or a playstation or an ipod etc.
Another part of the problem is the cost of table time today but even if they had a free pool table available a lot of kids today would rather play some other game. When it comes to gambling, casinos and cards have taken a lot of money that used to be in pool halls.
I don't know if it will ever return to the old days.
Things run in cycles kids. Pool isn't going away anytime soon. There are still money games of note being played all over the planet. Last year at DCC I saw more big money games going on at the same time then in any previous year. It was non stop action every night! Just like a revival of Johnston City with more games and bigger crowds. All this talk of doom and gloom is a bit unfounded imo. There are still tens of millions of pool players worldwide and the numbers are growing every year. I still see big crowds of spectators at major events like The U.S. Open and World Cup of Pool.
Yes, the trend is that pool is becoming more of an international game, not just a U.S. one. This is similar to what we see happening in other sports as well. Look at how golf has changed over the last 10-20 years, with great players coming from all over the globe. True, the money in pool doesn't compare with other major sports, so what else is new. I will say this, a top player today can make a better living than a top player of twenty years ago. He just has to be willing to travel extensively. Look at Johnny Archer and Rodney Morris, traveling more now than they did in the 90's.
If it was only about the money, every kid would get into golf or tennis, or try to play baseball or basketball. But not all kids have the required skills or desire to play those games. There will always be young people who fall in love with pool, for the game and not for the money. The chance to make money at it comes afterwards! If they can play the game they love and make a decent living at it (which many top players are able to do), why not go for it. Life is not just about money, contrary to what some people may think. It is about fulfillment of our dreams and desires as well. How many times have we heard about a successful businessman or attorney giving it all up to live a more simple life? And make far less money!
Pool may be down as a professional sport in the USA, but it is growing in other parts of the world. We on AZ tend to be egocentric in how we look at things. There is a bigger world out there, actually much bigger than the USA. Who knows, there may even be some better players on other planets :smile:. One day we'll find out and they'll kick all our asses!
Yes, the trend is that pool is becoming more of an international game, not just a U.S. one. This is similar to what we see happening in other sports as well. Look at how golf has changed over the last 10-20 years, with great players coming from all over the globe. True, the money in pool doesn't compare with other major sports, so what else is new. I will say this, a top player today can make a better living than a top player of twenty years ago. He just has to be willing to travel extensively. Look at Johnny Archer and Rodney Morris, traveling more now than they did in the 90's.
If it was only about the money, every kid would get into golf or tennis, or try to play baseball or basketball. But not all kids have the required skills or desire to play those games. There will always be young people who fall in love with pool, for the game and not for the money. The chance to make money at it comes afterwards! If they can play the game they love and make a decent living at it (which many top players are able to do), why not go for it. Life is not just about money, contrary to what some people may think. It is about fulfillment of our dreams and desires as well. How many times have we heard about a successful businessman or attorney giving it all up to live a more simple life? And make far less money!
Pool may be down as a professional sport in the USA, but it is growing in other parts of the world. We on AZ tend to be egocentric in how we look at things. There is a bigger world out there, actually much bigger than the USA. Who knows, there may even be some better players on other planets :smile:. One day we'll find out and they'll kick all our asses!
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Because 9 ball is killing pool.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatboy
People want instant gratification. They dont want to put the work in it takes to get there-there front table. Even for the most gifted players it still took a year, took me 3 years, I wish we had 2000 Bartrums in America. But no we have Facebook and the like, easy instant gratification BS. I sound like a old man but I'm only 43 and 70% pf the people in the pool room that can play are older than me, same % as it was when I was 21. hardly any young guys like scooter/tedder comming into pool. Sad very sad.
Reply from Alstl:
I think you hit on it there. Young kids have much more options for entertainment than I did. I loved hanging out in the pool hall but I didn't have a computer or a playstation or an ipod etc.
Another part of the problem is the cost of table time today but even if they had a free pool table available a lot of kids today would rather play some other game. When it comes to gambling, casinos and cards have taken a lot of money that used to be in pool halls.
I don't know if it will ever return to the old days.
Kids do have more options, but, look at the time they spend with bicycles/skateboards etc. so I disagree, if they can see some type of Flying Tomato skill level they need to achieve and the reward will come many are willing to go there.
Pool does not offer that yet and that reason alone is why many greats in our sport have chosen other fields of work.
For example, the Phillipines with Efren/Busta/Parica, this group of tomatoes made them all believe they could fly, combine that with an economy like here in the 40's and you've the perfect storm conditions of the Harold Worst Era.
We first have to lead em to water, doesn't have to be a long walk to get there, let em drink like many have done with the HIDDEN CARD in www.worldpokertour.com and you set the ball in motion.
Other factors of the game must be met to make em drink, but once there your able to give them the heroine addiction (not the drug just a play on words) they need to want to play "just a little bit better" the next time.
Eric the WBT does have this figured out, just waiting on a couple three mfgs.
Until then, domain name only.
BiL
Originally Posted by Fatboy
People want instant gratification. They dont want to put the work in it takes to get there-there front table. Even for the most gifted players it still took a year, took me 3 years, I wish we had 2000 Bartrums in America. But no we have Facebook and the like, easy instant gratification BS. I sound like a old man but I'm only 43 and 70% pf the people in the pool room that can play are older than me, same % as it was when I was 21. hardly any young guys like scooter/tedder comming into pool. Sad very sad.
Reply from Alstl:
I think you hit on it there. Young kids have much more options for entertainment than I did. I loved hanging out in the pool hall but I didn't have a computer or a playstation or an ipod etc.
Another part of the problem is the cost of table time today but even if they had a free pool table available a lot of kids today would rather play some other game. When it comes to gambling, casinos and cards have taken a lot of money that used to be in pool halls.
I don't know if it will ever return to the old days.
Kids do have more options, but, look at the time they spend with bicycles/skateboards etc. so I disagree, if they can see some type of Flying Tomato skill level they need to achieve and the reward will come many are willing to go there.
Pool does not offer that yet and that reason alone is why many greats in our sport have chosen other fields of work.
For example, the Phillipines with Efren/Busta/Parica, this group of tomatoes made them all believe they could fly, combine that with an economy like here in the 40's and you've the perfect storm conditions of the Harold Worst Era.
We first have to lead em to water, doesn't have to be a long walk to get there, let em drink like many have done with the HIDDEN CARD in www.worldpokertour.com and you set the ball in motion.
Other factors of the game must be met to make em drink, but once there your able to give them the heroine addiction (not the drug just a play on words) they need to want to play "just a little bit better" the next time.
Eric the WBT does have this figured out, just waiting on a couple three mfgs.
Until then, domain name only.
BiL
This.
In the late 90's I had a teammate that was trying to go pro. He put his life on hold, lived with his parents (he was mid 20s at the time), and lived for pool. Best player I've ever seen in person. Watched him do 5 (IIRC) break and runs in a row. One week he came back from a pro-am tournament where he spent time talking with some pros. He was completely dejected, quit playing most of his leagues, and started to look for a job. The general message from the pros is that there just isn't enough money in it anymore unless you are one of the top few.
Bowling is the same way, it's simply not popular any more. Like it or not, both pool/billiards and bowling have a stigma attached to them. It's a game for beer drinking, cigarette smoking, tattoo sporting white trash, not a sport. I certainly don't see it that way. Hate to say it but progress is leaving pool behind. 20-somethings would rather play Xbox360, update their facebook, and sent text messages from their iPhone than go to a pool hall or bowling alley.
I'm 42 and while there are some younger players where I play most are my age or older.
Pool is dying, the world is moving on to new things, I don't think there is anything that can be done to stop it. Back to the bowling analogy - just look at the crazy shit they are doing to try to gain popularity, it's not working.
I suppose that's your opinion. My opinion is.....
As long as people are interested in hitting balls on a table with a stick, pool isn't dead. It takes a well rounded player to be a champion, do you think the pros never have to play on a bar box?
They do, and I doubt they complain about it, why should you.
I am with you
Lou, I am with you on this. I am what I would consider an average pool player. I do well enough to typically stay in the tournament in the top half of the field and occasionally play well enough to get to the money. I hate playing with a spot because I care more about winning than I do about the money. In other words, I do not get the same satisfaction in winning with a spot as I do when I beat someone playing even or giving them a spot! I will try anyone for $5 a game but I will typically stop if I see that the game is out of line. I can usually get a sense of this before losing more than $40 playing $5 at a time. Although, if I am not playing up to my potential, I will try to "shoot out of it". I tend to not play for more than $50 per set. Pool is the only thing at which I gamble.
Patrick Troutman
"Show me someone that doesn't care if they win or lose and I will show you a loser." - Randy Holtz
Lou, I am with you on this. I am what I would consider an average pool player. I do well enough to typically stay in the tournament in the top half of the field and occasionally play well enough to get to the money. I hate playing with a spot because I care more about winning than I do about the money. In other words, I do not get the same satisfaction in winning with a spot as I do when I beat someone playing even or giving them a spot! I will try anyone for $5 a game but I will typically stop if I see that the game is out of line. I can usually get a sense of this before losing more than $40 playing $5 at a time. Although, if I am not playing up to my potential, I will try to "shoot out of it". I tend to not play for more than $50 per set. Pool is the only thing at which I gamble.
Patrick Troutman
"Show me someone that doesn't care if they win or lose and I will show you a loser." - Randy Holtz
That is true but I live next to a large park with a skateboard area. The kids can go there all day with no money in their pocket and attain flying tomato skill level. At $4 bucks an hour for table time it is a little more expensive to get the flying tomato at pool.
Alot has changed in the past 20 years
Every poolroom around here had poker machines and cherry master fruit slot machines. Pool halls could survive easy with those. It is a felony here in Tennessee to have one on your property. It could be in a storage room unplugged and they will still take you to jail for one. It's no easy task operating a poolhall without those. I know because i own a poolhall. Legalized gambling would bring those back and you will see more poolhalls open up. Many states are currently voting on legalizing gambling. This is part of the reason why there are less poolrooms around here.
The main reason kids aren't playing pool is simple... X-BOX and PS3. Ask any teenager and you will find out. They all play those games. It is not because of live poker either. I have never heard of any poker game that would be dumb enough to let someone under 18 play. Online poker now it takes a act of god to transfer real money online. I tried 2 weeks ago and was unsucessful. So i doubt its that either.
Fatboy as to the lack of big action is simple. 20 years ago there was alot of easy money guys around. A working man doesn't play multi thousand dollar sets. I was taught early on...if a guy comes in to the poolhall and pulls out a wad of money he was more than likely a drug dealer,bookie or does something for that easy money. Most of those guys are in prision around here. I could make a long long list of just the ones I know. The ones that are left,even the ones that like pool,keep a much lower profile.
Legalized gambling is the only real fix. a poolroom owner could have slot machines and a poker room out in the open. Who on here would want to open one up if that was the case?
IMHO
Every poolroom around here had poker machines and cherry master fruit slot machines. Pool halls could survive easy with those. It is a felony here in Tennessee to have one on your property. It could be in a storage room unplugged and they will still take you to jail for one. It's no easy task operating a poolhall without those. I know because i own a poolhall. Legalized gambling would bring those back and you will see more poolhalls open up. Many states are currently voting on legalizing gambling. This is part of the reason why there are less poolrooms around here.
The main reason kids aren't playing pool is simple... X-BOX and PS3. Ask any teenager and you will find out. They all play those games. It is not because of live poker either. I have never heard of any poker game that would be dumb enough to let someone under 18 play. Online poker now it takes a act of god to transfer real money online. I tried 2 weeks ago and was unsucessful. So i doubt its that either.
Fatboy as to the lack of big action is simple. 20 years ago there was alot of easy money guys around. A working man doesn't play multi thousand dollar sets. I was taught early on...if a guy comes in to the poolhall and pulls out a wad of money he was more than likely a drug dealer,bookie or does something for that easy money. Most of those guys are in prision around here. I could make a long long list of just the ones I know. The ones that are left,even the ones that like pool,keep a much lower profile.
Legalized gambling is the only real fix. a poolroom owner could have slot machines and a poker room out in the open. Who on here would want to open one up if that was the case?
IMHO
I don't blame you Jay, that is one hell of a statement and one that mirrors my thoughts perfectly. Worrying about the game of pool a waste of time, it is an ancient game that is still evolving like it always has.
Show me a time in this games history that it has stayed static for very long. At one time there were no rails on the table and if you shot and missed your target the ball fell on the floor and rolled away:rotflmao: No doubt there were players back then that were bummed that someone was changing the game by putting rails or what they called "banks" on the table.
Remember don't take the highs to high or the lows to low.
Show me a time in this games history that it has stayed static for very long. At one time there were no rails on the table and if you shot and missed your target the ball fell on the floor and rolled away:rotflmao: No doubt there were players back then that were bummed that someone was changing the game by putting rails or what they called "banks" on the table.
Remember don't take the highs to high or the lows to low.
Most of the poolhalls around here are bars w/ tables. Kids can't go there. Even if there are a couple that allow kids before 8PM, do you think parents are going to drive them across town so they can hang out for a few hrs? I don't see it.
I'm 38. Back in the day, in HS, I drove myself to the poolhall- before that one opened up in town, I snuck into bars in the afternoon when nobody really seemed to care. I was challenging busch league players on bar boxes. I don't expect to see HS kids do that these days.
As far as betting, I've never had enough at-risk money to get into it. None of my league friends do either. It's not a big surprise- they can barely afford their tabs.
My question is, how do you other married w/ kids guys get out for some table time?
I'm 38. Back in the day, in HS, I drove myself to the poolhall- before that one opened up in town, I snuck into bars in the afternoon when nobody really seemed to care. I was challenging busch league players on bar boxes. I don't expect to see HS kids do that these days.
As far as betting, I've never had enough at-risk money to get into it. None of my league friends do either. It's not a big surprise- they can barely afford their tabs.
My question is, how do you other married w/ kids guys get out for some table time?
Get divorced and have your ex-wife move with the kids to Wisconsin without telling you.
3rd, :grin: You got me on the "too" too. I slipped up.
Thanks, for the constructive criticism.
That is what Fatboy has asked us for.
I would not critique his post like that otherwise.
Actually there is not much critiquing necessary.
If I quote his post using Firefox most of the spelling errors, missed apostrophes and missed space between words are underlined for correction.
That's about 25:wink: corrections his computer could have made for him in just that post. It would be a great learning tool for him to try.
Firefox is the bomb Eric. Try it.
Eric, this post reminds me of what Billy Stroud is doing, he's run out of new thoughts and ideas for cue stick designs and has tossed it to the pool public, much like yourself looking for the holy grail, can't blame you, it's difficult to think differently and outside your own breadbox when your brain will only let you go so far...............:groucho: