APA Nationals...like playing at your local tavern

Mark...It is a bid system. The APA doesn't PAY anybody for the table setup. The table vendors bid for the rights to the tournament...they PAY APA! Of course then they keep the drop too. I doubt that APA Corporate really cares about the table quality...the money just keeps rolling in from the players anyway. Mark Griffin, on the other hand, has a vested interest in Diamond tables, which is one reason why they use them for the BCAPL Nationals. The other reasons are that they can utilize a normal cueball, and they just play better than a Valley.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

So the APA who pay for the 3rd party can do the same if they care..
 
dave...see my post to bflad above. The APA doesn't pay anybody. The vendor pays them, and keeps the drop.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

cmon Scott "nothing to do with the tables"? They are the ones paying and surely can have a stipulation in the contract that covers whatever e.g. "all tables shall have been manufactured after 1/2009 and shall be furnished with brand new simonis cloth......blah blah"
 
I don't play APA but went out last year to try finding a few games. I was appalled at the table conditions. Worst of all, every time I tried to gamble with somebody, they told me that if the APA caught them gambling then they'd be banned. If I didn't have fun drinking with friends & laughing at the lack of dress code (if you have been then you understand), then i'd have had a horrible trip. But the 1982 trailer park beauty pageant & copious amounts of bad booz made it a pretty good time.

Was there a weight limit in that beauty pageant?
 
I was asked to help Ref at the last Western Canadians in Edmonton in Feb.
This was the first time I was involved in a large tournament other than going to Vegas once.

I was told that the company that owned the tables were from Colorado.
The tables, Valleys, were no better or worse than most I play on in League.

One thing that amazed me tho. I was watching them load the trailers at the end of the tourney, they were using cardboard boxes for the balls, racks etc.
Those boxes were duck taped up to hold them together. They'd been thru hell and back. You'd think that they would have had rolling wooden boxes made for that. I suppose if thats how they operate how could you expect them to care about the table condition.

After seeing how the tables were loaded, some on dollies and others stacked on top of each other with no protection between, I'd have to think that the companies that are using Diamonds are treating them a tad better than that. If they didn't they'd have some serious issues after a few months on the road.
 
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Lyn I believe its all done by statistics. Won/loss record, number of innings in those games and matches, etc. There are a number of stats they keep including break and runs, 8 on the break, scratch on 8, 8 out of turn, safeties, etc. You toss all that into the apa computer genie and you get a rating. Then they rank the players with worst rating being on top, best on the bottom. There are a number of intangibles of course. The obvious being sandbagging. Some less obvious ones are difficulty of the division you play in. Some divisions around the country have divisions that have quite a few "super sevens", basically guys that play regional pro speed. You get into a soft division and your record is artificially pumped up bc you might get a whole year without being beat. Maybe even not beat a single game. Esp someone who plays your speed. Some of things too is that if you dont play alot the statistics are easier to move. A guy who plays 20 times, stalling the whole time can manipulate his record vs a guy who plays 50 times a year or more. I know many APA guys who play two to three times a week on a bunch of different teams.

It is a bit discouraging to get to vegas after spending all year playing and then you see your in a bracket with Gabe Apollos, Ernesto Bayau, Steve Knoll etc. What is also more interesting is the way they do the losers bracket. Unlike most tournaments, the APA keeps all the players in a group together. So for example in your bracket of 16, if you lose you go across, staying within your bracket of 16. In the end, its like APA Highlander...There can be only ONE! and only one player emerges from that 16 and eventually from 32 and eventually from the top 64 players in the event. Meanwhile over in Greenacres on the other three brackets of 64 you have guys getting to the finals who the guys in the bottom would love to try some giving up the 6 ball.

It is what it is. I think if the APA truly allowed it to be random draw, there would be a much higher influx of lurking in the weeds pro speed players. As it is, you pretty much know that all the guys who can run racks will be cutting each others throats. If you manage to do the Highlander routine successfully, the bonus is that when you get to the final 4 its pretty much a joke stealing. Or at least from what I saw at the nineball event. Alex Olinger out of Ohio won the 9ball event. In the bottom 64 bracket he beat guys who were putting 30-50 balls on him in an inning or two. Then he gets to the semi finals/finals and hes playing guys who wont put any packages at all on him. It was stealing, I think he won like 75-15 or something.
Good description.
 
dave...see my post to bflad above. The APA doesn't pay anybody. The vendor pays them, and keeps the drop.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

If your saying the vendor keeps the dollar a game thats a little hard to believe with the way the apa was protecting them. Also why would the apa run minis at a dollar a game with full payout of entries, their making money somehow.
 
Dave...That's how it was when I was an APA LO...but that was 20 years ago! The people running the minis are APA employees, getting paid to work the tournament. The vendor keeps the drop. :D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

If your saying the vendor keeps the dollar a game thats a little hard to believe with the way the apa was protecting them. Also why would the apa run minis at a dollar a game with full payout of entries, their making money somehow.
 
APA and table vendor

Scott,

I think you are showing your age!

That may have been how it was done YEARS ago - but that is not all that accurate now.

The APA gets a big chunk of the coin drop.

And the table bid is not 'really' up for bid. As mentioned before, Diamond would love to provide the tables - and has the tables available. It is just that the APA is letting politics get in the way of providing better equipment.

What possible difference can it make if I am a partner in Diamond? Would they have quit using Valleys if I had owned Brunswick stock (when Brunswick owned Valley). That is ridiculous and so is their position now.

It is too bad - but this position only punishes their players. Pool could get so much better if the larger entities would just work together.

Mark Griffin, CEO
CSI - BCAPL - USAPL
 
That may have been how it was done YEARS ago - but that is not all that accurate now.

Whether it is accurate or not is still rather irrelevant. It does nothing to establish that the APA does not have a responsibility to their members to provide tables of acceptable quality.

Frankly, I'm not even sure why Scott brought up any specifics of the arrangement in the first place. The details of the arrangement simply do not matter in this instance. The only argument that can be made is that the APA either does or does not have responsibility in this matter.
 
Mark...Yeah, I am an old fart! LOL :D Thanks for the clarification (that, of course begs another question: If APA is getting a "big chunk" of the drop, why aren't they adding more money to the prize fund? The prize money is the same as it was when I was an LO 20 years ago...when they didn't keep the drop). It is a shame that everybody can't work together for the benefit of the players.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott,

I think you are showing your age!

That may have been how it was done YEARS ago - but that is not all that accurate now.

The APA gets a big chunk of the coin drop.

And the table bid is not 'really' up for bid. As mentioned before, Diamond would love to provide the tables - and has the tables available. It is just that the APA is letting politics get in the way of providing better equipment.

What possible difference can it make if I am a partner in Diamond? Would they have quit using Valleys if I had owned Brunswick stock (when Brunswick owned Valley). That is ridiculous and so is their position now.

It is too bad - but this position only punishes their players. Pool could get so much better if the larger entities would just work together.

Mark Griffin, CEO
CSI - BCAPL - USAPL
 
Originally Posted by Ctwitty View Post
I was at the event and the Singles and the Team event are the best run tournaments there are.


JMO lol
You can't really believe this. Any system that gets all the players or teams in one room for a specific match time, then randomly calls out names and tables, at said match time is crazy. There is no reason tables can't be preassigned, as there is no reason you cant hit a couple practice balls before your match.
Can't wait for your opinion on modified single elimination format.
APA = tournaments run by people who don't play pool.
P.S. If your trip was free then you must have been one of the refs sticking their chests out.

It's all smoke and mirrors cookieman... Of course he doesn't believe it... If you review all 62? of his posts you will see he is either a LO, an APA employee or Hubbert or Bell..... LOL
 
solution

Or maybe they just don't know anything about the arrangement the national office has with its table vendor.

Some of the league operators HAVE spoken up and voiced concerns about the number of equipment complaints this year. They just didn't do it here, as this is not the place for it.

I was there, and the biggest issue I saw was the trouble everyone seemed to be having with the soft plastic racks. I'm sure there were other issues, but they weren't as visible and they certainly didn't apply to ALL of the tables. Then again, I remember the trouble everyone had the year they used the Sardo racks...

I hope that the National Office takes this serious, If they truly are in it to promote the sport than they have a responsibility, to provide the best equipment possible.

I beleive the original poster was just wanting to vent his disapointment at the quality of the equipment provided. That is how i judge a pool room is by the condition of the tables, that determines if i go back or not, or reccomend it any one else.

I know if I was to get the trip to vegas than I would expect the tables to be some of the best playing tables out there, after all this is for a National Championship!
 
dave...see my post to bflad above. The APA doesn't pay anybody. The vendor pays them, and keeps the drop.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

They are still the ones in charge and choose the way the tables are furnished. If they use a method that insures the worst conditions well, that is what they want to do. They dont care.
 
This is just a comment. Nothing more.

Anyone on this forum walk past the APA booth at Super Billiards Expo? Notice something different?

Well, for those of you not in attendence, there was a Diamond Smart Table in their booth :thumbup:!!!!! For too many years to count, APA has always brought a Valley to put in their booth. Maybe the start of something beautiful??????

We can only hope!

Lyn
 
This is just a comment. Nothing more.

Anyone on this forum walk past the APA booth at Super Billiards Expo? Notice something different?

Well, for those of you not in attendence, there was a Diamond Smart Table in their booth :thumbup:!!!!! For too many years to count, APA has always brought a Valley to put in their booth. Maybe the start of something beautiful??????

We can only hope!

Lyn

I will say my prayers for the switch to diamonds.
 
Why shouldnt the nationals be played on the same crap that the whole league is based on?

Bars with worn, dirty, stained cloth, bad lighting, dead rails, obstacles such as jukeboxes, ATM, video games and etc next to the tables. Mismatched, chipped, and dirty balls. Tripping hazards around the table. Tables that are not level and lights that are not centered. Plus throw in the few drunks that lurk around the table trying to challenge it during league sessions. And the servers and patrons that bump into your cue when shooting or constantly walk by the table.

If the playing conditions were perfect the whole handicap system would be have to be readjusted.



.
 
The equipment is typical bartable equipment but do you really agree with a couple hundred masters teams standing around in the same room at match time waiting for table assignments? How about sudden death(one game)? Do you agree the masters should be run like a mini tourn ? We play masters league, 30 teams paying 30 dollars a week, we deserve a little more respect than we're showed.
With all their experience the tournament should be run much better.

Cookie man,

I agree with 100% on some things that you say. Yes the small tournament room when the run the mini tournaments and other events could be run better (although with the number of teams and matches they have, I think they do a great job). I also don't like the sudden death format that they implemented. I think there would be something else they could do except a 1 game sudden death.

But overall, the APA runs a great event. As for the equiptment, I prefer Diamonds over Valley tables but if Valley's are what they have, I am fine with that.

I don't agree with everything the APA does but i still think they run a fantastic national tournament.

Leagueguy.
 
This is just a comment. Nothing more.

Anyone on this forum walk past the APA booth at Super Billiards Expo? Notice something different?

Well, for those of you not in attendence, there was a Diamond Smart Table in their booth :thumbup:!!!!! For too many years to count, APA has always brought a Valley to put in their booth. Maybe the start of something beautiful??????

We can only hope!

Lyn


That would be fantastic.

Leagueguy
 
Why shouldnt the nationals be played on the same crap that the whole league is based on?

Bars with worn, dirty, stained cloth, bad lighting, dead rails, obstacles such as jukeboxes, ATM, video games and etc next to the tables. Mismatched, chipped, and dirty balls. Tripping hazards around the table. Tables that are not level and lights that are not centered. Plus throw in the few drunks that lurk around the table trying to challenge it during league sessions. And the servers and patrons that bump into your cue when shooting or constantly walk by the table.

Damn, are you sure you're not living down here in Arlington, Texas???

Described our APA host location bars to a "T"!!!

Maniac
 
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